Serious problem with Longbeard shells

[smh]

I started a thread on 2/21 in the "Lead Shooters Section" on the problems I have been having with 3-1/2" Longbeard shells—http://oldgobbler.com/Forum/index.php/topic,94113.0.html

This past weekend I tried my 3" 870 with 3" #5, 1-3/4 oz. loads from an old lot (five or six years old and a lot I purchased last year.

Following are the results from the densest 10" circle on 36" square paper at a measured 40 yards, from a bag rest:

Shot 1 ("new" lot)—44 pellets in 10"
Shot 2 ("old" lot)—151 pellets in 10"
Shot 3 ("new" lot)—46 pellets in 10"

Note that the average (45 pellets) for the "new" lot is placing only 30% of the pellets in 10" as the "old" lot—70% less from the same gun, same choke tube, same exact setup, minutes apart, and from a clean barrel.

Photos of shot patterns are attached (I think).

Any ideas?

[owlhoot]

The resin is broken or the batch is no good.
There is no resin
Not much shot in shell
You cut one open?
Change loads and be done with them....

[smh]

Yes! I did perform an "autopsy" on one of the problem 3-1/2" shells. The resin was intact, the shot measured #5 with calipers (.120" +/-), and the shot load was correct (slightly over 2 oz. including resin in the 3-1/2" shell).

My suspicion is also with a resin problem, but this problem is present with at least three different lots (two different 3-1/2" lots—one purchased this year and one purchased last year and one 3" lot purchased last year). I have no way of knowing the quality/repeatability of the resin, but something is VERY different.

I returned three boxes of the worst of the 3-1/2" lots to Winchester. Supposedly they are "in testing" but the contact told me their testing was confidential. I pushed back and he said he would pass along what he could once testing  is complete. I submitted a detailed report with the returned shells and also sent an update detailing the more recent problem with the 3" shells. 

I will be hunting in Florida in less than two weeks and will be using 3-1/2" #7 Hevi-13 which was my favorite prior to Longbeard introduction.

I have been extremely pleased with Longbeard shells until this year.

[owlhoot]

Well good deal you tested the new batch , most won't and those will more than likely wound a turkey if too far out.
Good luck on your upcoming hunt

[strum]

I just got two new boxes of 3" 1 3/4oz #6    And I have a box left over from last season Glad I saw this.
I will be testing from each box.

[Missouri hunter]

I haven't looked into how to get pictures on here but I shot the long beard 3" 1 3/4 5s last week and had a 30yd pattern that was worse than a 50 from last year's testing. The 40yd has a hole that looked like a slug in the lower part of the paper and about half the hits from last year. I was getting around 140s in 10" last year. This time I got 72. Outside the ten was bad as well. I'm thinking the resin was not breaking up all the way. I'm going back to double x

[smh]

See the thread I started under "Lead Shooters Section" on the forum. It goes into much detail on the problem with the 3-1/2" shells. I had thought it was possible the resin was not shattering, but I did not see a large "clump" or slug sized hole, even at 20 and 25 yards.

I still suspect a resin problem, but it is really frustrating to see such a huge deterioration in pattern density to the point that I am not willing to hunt with these shells in the latest lots I purchased.

[Missouri hunter]

See the thread I started under "Lead Shooters Section" on the forum. It goes into much detail on the problem with the 3-1/2" shells. I had thought it was possible the resin was not shattering, but I did not see a large "clump" or slug sized hole, even at 20 and 25 yards.

I still suspect a resin problem, but it is really frustrating to see such a huge deterioration in pattern density to the point that I am not willing to hunt with these shells in the latest lots I purchased.

If the resin isn't fragmenting all the way it's like in funny shapes and could be tumbling off. Could be random luck that I caught some on paper. It's a real bummer because like you I was getting great results before I opened this latest box.

[jrinny]

I am glad I stocked up when they had a sale after season a few years ago- it did make me check the lot numbers and mark the boxes. 50 rounds of 3.5 inch 5's and 60 rounds of 3 inch 6's should last awhile.

[Bowguy]

Guys just a curiosity question? Are these being shot off a steady rest? I've been at the outdoors a long time. Seems more often than not guys blame equipment on their own personal failures. Not saying this is the case but something to consider. Myself I'm not longbeard fan for the most part anyhow. I shoot straight copper coated lead. Never had a problem and get more forgivable patterns anyhow

[smh]

Every shot detailed in this post (3 shots total with two lots) and all but the 20 and 25 yard shots detailed in my thread in the Lead Shooters Section were shot from a bench and a bag rest—as have my MANY excellent pattern shots fired over the last several years using Long Beard shells.

The shotguns used are 3" 870 and 3-1/2" 870—both with factory Remington cantilever barrels with scopes. Choke tubes are the same as used in previous years—.665 Indian Creek in the 3" 870 and Primos Jelly Head (most with .660 and some with .665) in the 3-1/2" 870.

All shot patterns were measured using a 10" plexiglass circle over the densest part of the pattern on a 36" square of paper. You will note that ALL of the patterns measured using the "old lot numbers" are excellent, and ALL the patterns using the "new lot numbers" are very poor.

This is the link to my thread in the Lead Shooters Section:
http://oldgobbler.com/Forum/index.php/topic,94113.0.html

I am open to any suggestions and have sent all the details to Winchester and am awaiting further information from them. I am hoping for some guidance from Winchester, as I have been a faithful user of the Long Beards since their original introduction.

Thanks for the "listening ears" and thoughtful suggestions from the forum members. I am a long time "lurker" and rare poster until this problem and welcome any help.

[Ol timer]

Here's what I would do I'd go buy a few box's of the same LB shell with different lot numbers test all them the same way you just did but clean the gun after each new shell tested if your pattern doesn't improve look at that scope to be a possible issue. I can understand a bad lot run of any shell but not severe different lots unless Winchester changed the loading process recently. Good Luck 

[lowoctane]

Here's what I would do I'd go buy a few box's of the same LB shell with different lot numbers test all them the same way you just did but clean the gun after each new shell tested if your pattern doesn't improve look at that scope to be a possible issue. I can understand a bad lot run of any shell but not severe different lots unless Winchester changed the loading process recently. Good Luck

X2...are you cleaning the barrel after every shot? Wad stoppers in the choke? 

[Spring Music]

I recently went back to 3 inch #5 Longbeards out of my 870 with 26 inch barrel with a .665 IC tube. Patterns are really good an the two turkeys Ive killed so far, April 1 and 2, didn't seem to like those #5's.

However, I did shake a couple of the shells and "you" could hear a few shot moving around, but like I said it doesn't seem to bother anything!

[BandedSpur]

Have been hearing about some issues with current production Winchester LB shells. Was helping a buddy with patterning his 21" Rem 870 a couple of days ago. He shoots a .665 Undertaker choke tube and Winch LB 3-1.75-5s. With early manufactured shells he was averaging around 130/10, not great for that shell but decent. Shells bought last year averaged 109/10. Shells bought this year averaged 55/10 for three shots - 68, 60, and 37/10. Yes you read that correctly - 37/10". That is beyond pathetic. And yes, we were shooting at big paper, from a rest, barrel bore-snaked between shots as is his practice, at 60 degrees in calm conditions. Not my first rodeo.

So I let him borrow a couple of my chokes that are normally superstars in Remington barrels. My IC BDS .665 did 70/10 and my JH .660 did 37/10. Those shells in these three choke tubes are not capable of taking a gobbler at 40 yards.

So, if you shoot LBs and bought shells this year, be sure you pattern them before you go out and miss or wound a big gobbler.