Wisconsin's Flock Dwindling

[Spurs]

I'll have to disagree to that point.  The mission of government intervention was to not only to promote and enhance natural resources, but to also to give people access to it for enjoyment. 

If "biologically sound" was 100% of all regulations, then there wouldn't be allowances that we currently have.  Biologically sound regulations would be to hunt turkey in the fall when no breeding takes place and poults have matured, deer hunting would be restricted to only a short period before the rut, and no fishing would be allowed during spawning season if that were true.

The reason that hunting is allowed during those crucial periods of an animal/fish's life is for the enjoyment factor.  Buck chasing does, turkey gobbling, etc. 

Good rebuttal,...but only partially true.  Part of the "mission of government" (which comes in the form of wildlife managers hired to oversee biologically-sound wildlife management) is to provide recreational opportunity for human beings to enjoy and utilize our wildlife resources.  While I agree that there are times when wildlife managers succumb to public pressure and institute regulations that are not based on the "best available science" (i.e. too early starts to spring hunting in some states), generally speaking there are few regulations put in place that are not based on that science to begin with.  In other words, we establish "baselines" that are based on sound biology first, and then tailor hunting regulations around that.

Using your example of spring gobbler hunting, again the reasoning surrounding it is based on the "science" that because
turkeys do not "pair up" (like quail, for instance) and a few gobblers are all that are needed to insure breeding of hens, we can remove many of the gobblers from a turkey population without impacting the overall reproductive potential of the resource. 

Your statement that we hunt them in the spring because of the "enjoyment factor" is completely true.  I can assure you, however, that if wildlife managers determined that spring hunting was not "biologically sound" in terms of its impact on turkey populations, we would not have a spring gobbler season.  Again, biological soundness is the first consideration.

You also bring up other species and hunting regulations related to them.  You cite hunting deer (whitetails) during the rut.  The reason that occurs is because wildlife managers have determined that hunting whitetails in the rut has little or no impact on the resource.  On the other hand, many of the mule deer states have stopped hunting deer during the rut. That is because it has been determined that hunting mule deer during the rut is not a good idea based on the "best available science" which shows that mule deer populations are impacted by doing that.  I could give you many other examples demonstrating the same philosophy regarding other species.

The bottom line is that, to "Average Joe Hunter" it may appear that hunting regulations are set up strictly or primarily based on the "human enjoyment factor", I can assure you that is not the case in all but the rarest of circumstances.  In addition, any wildlife manager that is worth the uniform he wears will not allow that enjoyment factor to come before sound biology.   

Totally agree with most of that, but I want to clarify that the "enjoyment" factor is only taken as a small portion along with biological data and available habitat.  You are totally correct with the enjoyment being the later, but it weighs heavily due to the political arrangements (as eggshell stated).  Also, going a little bit deeper into this worm hole  the enjoyment factor is surrounded by hunter success (i.e. available resources developed by best wildlife management practices). 

In other words, if there ain't no game, ain't nobody having fun.

Back to my original point though, having half days...in general...not only allows for early breeding to take place with less stress on the turkey, but also seems to make for a more enjoyable hunting experience.  Now all of that is from personal experience hunting 12 different states with changing time periods.  It just seems that gobbling activity has a huge upswing in those areas left alone during the afternoon periods.

I would like to see some in depth research done on it though.  I know there are some areas in AL, MS, and AR that have areas that are restricted to morning hunting only.  It would be very interesting to see that data.

[GobbleNut]

Back to my original point though, having half days...in general...not only allows for early breeding to take place with less stress on the turkey, but also seems to make for a more enjoyable hunting experience.  Now all of that is from personal experience hunting 12 different states with changing time periods.  It just seems that gobbling activity has a huge upswing in those areas left alone during the afternoon periods.

I would like to see some in depth research done on it though.  I know there are some areas in AL, MS, and AR that have areas that are restricted to morning hunting only.  It would be very interesting to see that data.

Again, great discussion going on here about all of this stuff!

I have no problem with half-day hunting. At the same time, as one who also hunts in other states, one of the factors I look at when exploring where to go is whether a state has all-day or half-day hunting.  All other things being equal, I will choose the state with all-day hunting first.

On the other hand, if the hunting (for whatever reason) is significantly better in the half-day state, I can be persuaded to give up the afternoon hunting.  As such, if studies/research were to show that half-day hunting did indeed benefit turkey populations,...and also had the added benefit of improving the aesthetics (gobbling, more available opportunity, etc.),...I would jump all over it as a general regulation across the country. 

I am a "show me the money" type guy.  If a state implements a regulation such as half-day hunting, I want them to demonstrate to me that it actually makes a difference rather than just being an impediment to hunter opportunity and "enjoyment".  Furthermore, as I have stated before, if it appears that wildlife managers somewhere are just "grasping at straws" in implementing regulations that have no real basis in biology, I tend to be skeptical of their expertise. 

That is rare, but I have been involved in debates over management decisions that were clearly questionable and not supported by science (i.e. as you say, "political decisions"),...and yet, the willdlife managers stood steadfastly behind those decisions as if they were based on science.  That kind of stuff I just cannot abide. 

[eggshell]

I saw it way too many times Gobblenut....someone that did not think it through and then would not back up and admit it was wrong. I even seen administrators push stuff through in spite of what research said, they just wanted to exercise their self absorbed egos. For the most part this did not happen, but in every government organization it happens. Generally these people fit into one of two categories: they were very early and young in their careers or they were unqualified people installed by politicians. The younger generation can be catalyst to great new work or super frustration. I'll give an example: through my career I made a name and reputation for myself on the national stage for a certain species (yes I can back it up) and the techniques I developed tripled the available stock in our state. After I and a couple other biologist that worked with me retired they hired new young people shortly out of college into a couple key positions. I soon learned they had changed the entire working mngt. plan and was initiating research as to how to enhance stocks. I looked at the proposals and instantly told people that we had answered those questions 20 years ago. They didn't listen to the old goat and proceeded with their great new idea. I couldn't believe it, I told them what would happen and in their tagging project they killed 2500 fish the first year because they tried their "bright idea". Maybe that is why I get all riled up when the young studs start spouting off about how much smarter and better they are. I will say again this is not the norm. 

[deerhunt1988]

As far as setting regulations go... One major key player is not being mentioned in this thread. Politics. Many state's wildlife laws are controlled by commissions, often appointed (not elected) officials who may or may not have a background in wildlife. In many states, these commissions are ultimately the ones who set the regulations. Sometimes these commissions go by the recommendation of their state biologists...Sometimes they don't! For a recent example, refer to South Carolina's new turkey regulations. Info at the following link:

https://www.islandpacket.com/opinion/op-ed/article231262603.html

The agency wanted a statewide April season opener, didn't get it. In SC, it appears the legislature sets the wildlife laws rather than a commission.


Believe it or not, most wildlife managers and biologists want/believe many of the same things as the people in this thread. But getting those regulations passed is far from easy.

[GobbleNut]

As far as setting regulations go... One major key player is not being mentioned in this thread. Politics. Many state's wildlife laws are controlled by commissions, often appointed (not elected) officials who may or may not have a background in wildlife. In many states, these commissions are ultimately the ones who set the regulations. Sometimes these commissions go by the recommendation of their state biologists...Sometimes they don't! For a recent example, refer to South Carolina's new turkey regulations. Info at the following link:
https://www.islandpacket.com/opinion/op-ed/article231262603.html
The agency wanted a statewide April season opener, didn't get it. In SC, it appears the legislature sets the wildlife laws rather than a commission.
Believe it or not, most wildlife managers and biologists want/believe many of the same things as the people in this thread. But getting those regulations passed is far from easy.

You don't want to get me (and I'm sure a lot of others here) started on the role of politics in undermining good wildlife management decisions.  Here in NM, we have battled poor decision-making by our Game Commissions on a yearly basis for decades.  I could write a book on that subject. 

I agree that most of the "rank and file" wildlife folks would change the Game Commission system in a heartbeat if given the chance,...but they know where their "bread is buttered" and, as such, either tow the line with teeth gritted or go find another job.  As supposedly "advanced" as the North American system of wildlife management is, it is truly unfortunate that we cannot set up the governing bodies to be free of political pressure. 

[eggshell]

All I can tell you is that most of the state agencies do good work and for the most part are left to their science based management. Yes the legislatures get final say, but my experience is in most states they do what wildlife experts propose. I worked with a lot of states and had talked with most people in the mid west and east. We all knew who the states were that were driven by politics and no one wanted to work there....no I'm not naming them. I venture to say it's not as bad as many think. I'm sorry you've had to deal with that Gobblenut. N.M. is one state that I never saw at the conferences I attended nor did I ever deal with them. Mostly because they were in a different Geographic region. The one place politicians stuck their nose most was in the money, if state wildlife had any they tried to take it or they would veto any kind of License fees. It's not unusual for state Wildlife Agency to go 10,15 or 20 years with no funding increase from License increases. Now you may think that's good, but those fees pay for research like dwindling Turkey flocks and their cost of doing business goes up to.

[RutnNStrutn]

You don't want to get me (and I'm sure a lot of others here) started on the role of politics in undermining good wildlife management decisions.  Here in NM, we have battled poor decision-making by our Game Commissions on a yearly basis for decades.  I could write a book on that subject. 
I agree that most of the "rank and file" wildlife folks would change the Game Commission system in a heartbeat if given the chance,...but they know where their "bread is buttered" and, as such, either tow the line with teeth gritted or go find another job.

You should try living in FLA. FWC is always overpolitical, underfunded, and they make their decisions based on what is best for tourism - aka fishing guides and hotels. They put precious little resources into hunting. That's why most of the biologists leave for better jobs. They wonder why most Floridians hunt out of state, and FLA WMA hunting is a zoo.

[Spurs]

Back to my original point though, having half days...in general...not only allows for early breeding to take place with less stress on the turkey, but also seems to make for a more enjoyable hunting experience.  Now all of that is from personal experience hunting 12 different states with changing time periods.  It just seems that gobbling activity has a huge upswing in those areas left alone during the afternoon periods.

I would like to see some in depth research done on it though.  I know there are some areas in AL, MS, and AR that have areas that are restricted to morning hunting only.  It would be very interesting to see that data.

Again, great discussion going on here about all of this stuff!

I have no problem with half-day hunting. At the same time, as one who also hunts in other states, one of the factors I look at when exploring where to go is whether a state has all-day or half-day hunting.  All other things being equal, I will choose the state with all-day hunting first.

On the other hand, if the hunting (for whatever reason) is significantly better in the half-day state, I can be persuaded to give up the afternoon hunting.  As such, if studies/research were to show that half-day hunting did indeed benefit turkey populations,...and also had the added benefit of improving the aesthetics (gobbling, more available opportunity, etc.),...I would jump all over it as a general regulation across the country. 

I am a "show me the money" type guy.  If a state implements a regulation such as half-day hunting, I want them to demonstrate to me that it actually makes a difference rather than just being an impediment to hunter opportunity and "enjoyment".  Furthermore, as I have stated before, if it appears that wildlife managers somewhere are just "grasping at straws" in implementing regulations that have no real basis in biology, I tend to be skeptical of their expertise. 

That is rare, but I have been involved in debates over management decisions that were clearly questionable and not supported by science (i.e. as you say, "political decisions"),...and yet, the willdlife managers stood steadfastly behind those decisions as if they were based on science.  That kind of stuff I just cannot abide.

You actually just described why I love going to half day states.  Most people will shy away from states/public areas due to that restriction.  I am totally on your side regarding research too.  Just about every state with Easterns has at least a couple of public areas where afternoons are restricted.  If the data doesn't back it up, then I would be "against" also...I just don't think it would be.

[runngun]

In my area of Louisiana,  Turkey season my whole life started the third Saturday in March. The reason I remember is because my parents anniversary was March 23 and my Daddy was Gone!!! Within the last few years they moved the season forward to the first weekend of April.  I was HOT!!! Call NWTF Chapter President and A state biologist.  Both stated the season was moved due to allow hen's to be bred, as most gobblers were being killed the first two weeks of the March season.  If gobblers were getting killed early then hens not getting bred. I was satisfied with their answers.

Have a good one
Ray

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[Spurs]

In my area of Louisiana,  Turkey season my whole life started the third Saturday in March. The reason I remember is because my parents anniversary was March 23 and my Daddy was Gone!!! Within the last few years they moved the season forward to the first weekend of April.  I was HOT!!! Call NWTF Chapter President and A state biologist.  Both stated the season was moved due to allow hen's to be bred, as most gobblers were being killed the first two weeks of the March season.  If gobblers were getting killed early then hens not getting bred. I was satisfied with their answers.

Have a good one
Ray

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I think the issue most of us have with this is that there is no statistical data to prove those claims.  I am on the fence to be honest.  If there were case studies that proved that hens would be more likely to hatch a brood when left alone in late March vs. a hen that is bread in say lat May, then I'm 100% on board...but there is no data to back that up.

[GobbleNut]

In my area of Louisiana,  Turkey season my whole life started the third Saturday in March. The reason I remember is because my parents anniversary was March 23 and my Daddy was Gone!!! Within the last few years they moved the season forward to the first weekend of April.  I was HOT!!! Call NWTF Chapter President and A state biologist.  Both stated the season was moved due to allow hen's to be bred, as most gobblers were being killed the first two weeks of the March season.  If gobblers were getting killed early then hens not getting bred. I was satisfied with their answers.

Have a good one
Ray

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

I think the issue most of us have with this is that there is no statistical data to prove those claims.  I am on the fence to be honest.  If there were case studies that proved that hens would be more likely to hatch a brood when left alone in late March vs. a hen that is bread in say lat May, then I'm 100% on board...but there is no data to back that up.

Another good point, Spurs.  I'm not sure if many, if any, state has done research on affects of starting dates of spring hunting on turkey populations.  As one who has been espousing supporting management decisions based on research and data, it is hard for me to argue that point with you.

However,....there are some management decisions that are based on intuitive reasoning more-so than research.  The concept of allowing turkeys to breed before hunting them is one of those.  The fact is that gobblers exhibit breeding behavior for quite a long period in the spring.  Gobblers that can be killed in March at the peak of breeding can be killed in April and May just as easily,...after there is a reasonable assurance that they have had adequate time to breed.

So, from a manager's standpoint, why take the chance that hunting too early might actually impact turkey populations?  Again, intuitively it is just common sense to make the decision,....in struggling populations,...to just start the season a little later.  If the length of the season is an issue, just add some time on the back end.   

[runngun]

I was told that studies were done for the 3 previous years. Based on hunters reporting harvest information. 

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[LaLongbeard]

In my area of Louisiana,  Turkey season my whole life started the third Saturday in March. The reason I remember is because my parents anniversary was March 23 and my Daddy was Gone!!! Within the last few years they moved the season forward to the first weekend of April.  I was HOT!!! Call NWTF Chapter President and A state biologist.  Both stated the season was moved due to allow hen's to be bred, as most gobblers were being killed the first two weeks of the March season.  If gobblers were getting killed early then hens not getting bred. I was satisfied with their answers.

Have a good one
Ray

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

I think the issue most of us have with this is that there is no statistical data to prove those claims.  I am on the fence to be honest.  If there were case studies that proved that hens would be more likely to hatch a brood when left alone in late March vs. a hen that is bread in say lat May, then I'm 100% on board...but there is no data to back that up.

Louisiana has done several studies on the timing of the breeding season, they have the data on average start of nest dates etc. 90% of the harvest was taking place in the two or three weeks before average nest start dates. Doesn't take a lot of statistical evidence to know that's not a good plan. They moved the season into April which is 2-3 weeks from the mid March opening. It opened as early as March 15 in some years.
I will say moving the opening date was the absolute minimum thing that could be done minimum effort minimum cost ,but it is something. I know for a fact it has dropped the harvest numbers a lot. No more sitting in front of a Strutter decoy on a power line lol. By the time the season opens the pecking order has long since been sorted out and the dominant Gobblers have all the hens they need. Gobbling on the roost is noticeably less in April as well. For however many generations most La hunters were done by the first week of April and they don't know how to hunt them later in the season. If the opening date does nothing but remove most of the part timers it has been a success.
With most of the kills happening before the main breeding took place and what few Gobblers left spent all day dodging mouth breathers with crow calls, there's no doubt more hens will be bred now and more Gobblers will survive the season there no way that could be bad for turkey hunting. The fact that a lot of hunters are mad and giving up on La turkey hunting is  just a plus, very few will read or ask about the reasons behind the move. Time will tell if it will make a noticeable difference in populations but it's already thinning the herd of "hunters". I have stopped killing 2 Gobblers a year I kill one then move on to other states.
What we really need is to bring in turkeys from other states to kickstart a population rebound but that takes money and effort two things that are hard to organize in La

[Ozarks Hillbilly]

Missouri as long as I can remember has started spring turkey season the closest Monday to the 16th of April. When I started we had a two week season with a two bird limit. The first week you were allowed 1 bird. If you didn't harvest a bird the first week you could harvest both birds the second week  but not the same day. Before they moved daylight savings time it fell in the middle of season so the first week you could hunt until noon the second week you could hunt until 13:00.

Since then they have added a youth weekend. It's the first Saturday and Sunday of April and all day hunting is allowed. They also added a week onto the season. Still a two bird limit and only allow you to harvest one bird the first week. Season closes at 13:00 each day. Legal birds are adult Gobbler's, Jake's and bearded hen's.

I have been told that they figured most of the breading is generally done by mid April. The half day hunting is to limit disturbing the nesting hen's.

Our fall firearms season for the counties that it is open in is October 1-31. All day hunting is allowed with a limit of two bird's either sex and can be killed on the same day.

Archery is All day starting Sep. 15th- Nov.15th then Nov. 27th - Jan. 15th. Limit of two bird's either sex and allowed to be taken the same day.

2019 Spring reported harvest
Total 38,786
Gobbler's 30,407
Jake's 7,909
Bearded hen's 470

2018 Fall reported harvest
Total 4269
Adult Gobbler's 1044
Jake's 571
Adult hen's 1445
Juvenile hen's 1209

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[nativeks]

Kansas is again proposing a closure of the fall season and
wanting to drop to 1 spring tag for several units.

Staff recommend removing the option of a Game Tag in Units 3, 5, and 6 for spring 2020 (April 1-May 31) and recommend suspending the fall turkey season in Units 3, 5, and 6 for 2020 (October 1, 2020-January 31, 2021).