Wisconsin's Flock Dwindling

[fallhnt]

They changed the Fall season a few years back and last year made it so NR can't buy permits on-line. Not a very good article.

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[owlhoot]

They changed the Fall season a few years back and last year made it so NR can't buy permits on-line. Not a very good article.

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Didn't they go from 4 fall tags to just 1 a few years ago?
Dogs and 3.5 months season. Dogs while pheasant hunting?
What's all wrong in  the article in your opinion?

[Chordeiles]

A couple of things that haven't been mentioned, unless I missed it.
Season start dates and length should be analyzed and adjusted yearly, IMO.
This topic is taboo with a lot of hunters, when you start talking about pushing back start dates and shortening seasons.
Almost every podcast I listen to, that involves a turkey biologist and turkey populations, this comes up as a way to stabilize turkey numbers.(Along with a lot of the ideas mentioned already.)

[fallhnt]

They changed the Fall season a few years back and last year made it so NR can't buy permits on-line. Not a very good article.

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Didn't they go from 4 fall tags to just 1 a few years ago?
Dogs and 3.5 months season. Dogs while pheasant hunting?
What's all wrong in  the article in your opinion?

They made the Fall season change a couple years ago. They make it sound like Fall is the problem. Fall turkey dogs. An eastern tradition.

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[Spurs]

A couple of things that haven't been mentioned, unless I missed it.
Season start dates and length should be analyzed and adjusted yearly, IMO.
This topic is taboo with a lot of hunters, when you start talking about pushing back start dates and shortening seasons.
Almost every podcast I listen to, that involves a turkey biologist and turkey populations, this comes up as a way to stabilize turkey numbers.(Along with a lot of the ideas mentioned already.)

My view on shortening season is that there is no actual data to back up those claims.  The only time that it has ever been proven to work was when populations were almost nonexistent.  I honestly think that most states (like My home of AR) have done this as more of a "feel good".  What happened in Arkansas was several years of bad luck IMO.  May/June flooding going on 5 years now, exploding hog population, social media and all the bad that comes with that, and EXTREMELY bad timber management by private timber companies. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure a few toms have been harvested before they got to mate a hen, but I have serious doubts that very many hens weren't sitting on eggs by the beginning of June.

[Chordeiles]

A couple of things that haven't been mentioned, unless I missed it.
Season start dates and length should be analyzed and adjusted yearly, IMO.
This topic is taboo with a lot of hunters, when you start talking about pushing back start dates and shortening seasons.
Almost every podcast I listen to, that involves a turkey biologist and turkey populations, this comes up as a way to stabilize turkey numbers.(Along with a lot of the ideas mentioned already.)

My view on shortening season is that there is no actual data to back up those claims.  The only time that it has ever been proven to work was when populations were almost nonexistent.  I honestly think that most states (like My home of AR) have done this as more of a "feel good".  What happened in Arkansas was several years of bad luck IMO.  May/June flooding going on 5 years now, exploding hog population, social media and all the bad that comes with that, and EXTREMELY bad timber management by private timber companies. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure a few toms have been harvested before they got to mate a hen, but I have serious doubts that very many hens weren't sitting on eggs by the beginning of June.

Yeah, I wasn't sure if this plan had ever been implemented by a state or not. It sounds like AR gave it a shot and it really didn't help. Sounds like y'all have had a slew of problems for sure.

In VA we're only allowed to hunt until noon for the first 3 weeks  of a 5 week season. I was always told that it was to curb hen disturbance during the laying period. Didn't know that idiots were actually shooting them! Here's something I found while doing some surfing.

Q: Why is spring gobbler hunting limited to noon during portions of the gobbler season?

A: During Department research to determine survival rates of wild turkey hens, it was discovered that at least 6% of the hen population is poached during the early part of the spring gobbler season. The rate could be as high as 9% if birds with transmitters that disappeared under suspicious circumstances are included. We believe accidental kills of hens primarily occur early in the season when hens are with gobblers. The risk that a hen will be shot drops sharply when they begin incubating a nest. The peak of onset of incubation is normally the first week of May. By delaying all-day hunting until most of the hens are incubating nests, we reduce potential additional incidental or intentional kill that would likely occur with all-day hunting early in the season.

Edit:I'm not saying I think every state needs go with a half day plan. I just found it interesting.....and surprising.

[fallhnt]

IL stops at 1. Noon stop time is tradition. Has no scientific basis. Mushroom hunters are in the woods all day posting pics of turkey eggs. Lots of hens get shot when near gobblers in the Spring.

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[Spurs]

A couple of things that haven't been mentioned, unless I missed it.
Season start dates and length should be analyzed and adjusted yearly, IMO.
This topic is taboo with a lot of hunters, when you start talking about pushing back start dates and shortening seasons.
Almost every podcast I listen to, that involves a turkey biologist and turkey populations, this comes up as a way to stabilize turkey numbers.(Along with a lot of the ideas mentioned already.)

My view on shortening season is that there is no actual data to back up those claims.  The only time that it has ever been proven to work was when populations were almost nonexistent.  I honestly think that most states (like My home of AR) have done this as more of a "feel good".  What happened in Arkansas was several years of bad luck IMO.  May/June flooding going on 5 years now, exploding hog population, social media and all the bad that comes with that, and EXTREMELY bad timber management by private timber companies. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure a few toms have been harvested before they got to mate a hen, but I have serious doubts that very many hens weren't sitting on eggs by the beginning of June.

Yeah, I wasn't sure if this plan had ever been implemented by a state or not. It sounds like AR gave it a shot and it really didn't help. Sounds like y'all have had a slew of problems for sure.

In VA we're only allowed to hunt until noon for the first 3 weeks  of a 5 week season. I was always told that it was to curb hen disturbance during the laying period. Didn't know that idiots were actually shooting them! Here's something I found while doing some surfing.

Q: Why is spring gobbler hunting limited to noon during portions of the gobbler season?

A: During Department research to determine survival rates of wild turkey hens, it was discovered that at least 6% of the hen population is poached during the early part of the spring gobbler season. The rate could be as high as 9% if birds with transmitters that disappeared under suspicious circumstances are included. We believe accidental kills of hens primarily occur early in the season when hens are with gobblers. The risk that a hen will be shot drops sharply when they begin incubating a nest. The peak of onset of incubation is normally the first week of May. By delaying all-day hunting until most of the hens are incubating nests, we reduce potential additional incidental or intentional kill that would likely occur with all-day hunting early in the season.

Edit:I'm not saying I think every state needs go with a half day plan. I just found it interesting.....and surprising.

I would actually be more understanding of a mid day stoppage than a later season.  It seems that the states that don't allow afternoon hunting have better opportunities for roosting, better morning gobbling, and just generally better hunting experiences.

IL stops at 1. Noon stop time is tradition. Has no scientific basis. Mushroom hunters are in the woods all day posting pics of turkey eggs. Lots of hens get shot when near gobblers in the Spring.

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While that is true in regards to mushroom hunters, removing some amount of disturbance should help in theory.  As I stated previously, I am more understanding of a mid day stoppage than a late start.  Seems to me that a later season would give more opportunity to run into hens. 

Of course this is all just theory, my main concern is removing hours from turkey hunters.  That is what has happened in AR.  Our season has been reduced to near nothing, our population is declining at a rapid rate, and our G&F has no extended plan to abate these issues.  Too many knee jerk reactions IMO.

[GobbleNut]

Speaking of that half-day hunting theory, the research is valuable and I applaud wildlife managers for making the effort and obtaining information that might be of value.  However, the real question comes down to whether or not half-day hunting has appreciable benefits,...i.e. has the noon closure demonstrated a reduction in hen mortality to a degree that it is of any significant value in terms of its positive benefits to struggling turkey populations?

In the case of the Virginia policy, the question becomes whether or not managers have followed up on their initial research to determine what impact the noon closure has had on the resource?  Did they continue their research and come up with data that actually shows real benefits to turkey survival?  ....Or did they just arbitrarily conclude that since a few hens were being shot that the solution was just to penalize hunters?

Did those researchers somehow obtain data that shows that significant numbers of hen deaths occurs from hunters shooting them while hunting in the afternoon?  Perhaps they have done the follow up and have data to support the noon closure.  If so, I would like to hear about it. My gut reaction based on my own personal hunting experience is to call B.S on that entire premise.  I would bet my good leg that the vast majority of hens are shot in the morning when the also-vast majority of hunters are in the woods.

The point made about other recreational users being in the woods is right on target.  Has there been research done to determine what impact human disturbance in all forms has on hen nesting and the corresponding affects in terms of nest success/failure? If not,...why not? ....And if such research showed that mushroom hunters,...as well as the myriad other recreational users,...were more of a problem that hunters, would those folks also be banned from doing "their thing" in the woods after noon? 

The point of this diatribe is that wildlife managers need to look at the "big picture" rather than getting into the mind-set that because hunters are the ones "pulling the trigger" then they must be the culprit in terms of struggling turkey populations.  Admittedly, that might be the case in certain, isolated situations/circumstances,...but it is not the case in the large majority of instances. ...And even if hunting might be the problem, choosing noon closures as the solution would be way down the list of choices to be made,...in my opinion.

Now, before I get accused on contradicting my position stated in other posts, let me be clear that hunters need to understand that arbitrarily shooting hens because they were "in the way" of their gobbler,...or because they happen to have grown a beard,...is not a good idea.  In the long run, it may not have any significant impact on the resource, but it is best just not to take that chance.  The more hens that are in the woods, the more eggs that are laid,...which might hatch into little turkeys,...which might grow to be big turkeys,...of which some might be big gobblers!

[Dtrkyman]

I have been fortunate to hunt turkey a lot!  Guided hundreds of hunts and have taken many friends to hunt as well as many kids and first timers.

In all of that hunting I have never seen a hen get shot that was in the vicinity of the target bird, never even saw another gobbler get it, one friend killed 2 with one shot that had no idea the other bird was in the way so I think this is a non factor in my experience.

Poor hatches due to weather and nest predators are the largest factors and good nesting habitat.

Where I have hunted Michigan the last few years has some of the nastiest cut over thickets anywhere and the bird numbers are fantastic 

Some properties I hunt in west central Il. have a bush honeysuckle issue, those woods have no ground cover and birds likely can not even fly up to roost in that junk!

[Spurs]

Speaking of that half-day hunting theory, the research is valuable and I applaud wildlife managers for making the effort and obtaining information that might be of value.  However, the real question comes down to whether or not half-day hunting has appreciable benefits,...i.e. has the noon closure demonstrated a reduction in hen mortality to a degree that it is of any significant value in terms of its positive benefits to struggling turkey populations?

In the case of the Virginia policy, the question becomes whether or not managers have followed up on their initial research to determine what impact the noon closure has had on the resource?  Did they continue their research and come up with data that actually shows real benefits to turkey survival?  ....Or did they just arbitrarily conclude that since a few hens were being shot that the solution was just to penalize hunters?

Did those researchers somehow obtain data that shows that significant numbers of hen deaths occurs from hunters shooting them while hunting in the afternoon?  Perhaps they have done the follow up and have data to support the noon closure.  If so, I would like to hear about it. My gut reaction based on my own personal hunting experience is to call B.S on that entire premise.  I would bet my good leg that the vast majority of hens are shot in the morning when the also-vast majority of hunters are in the woods.

The point made about other recreational users being in the woods is right on target.  Has there been research done to determine what impact human disturbance in all forms has on hen nesting and the corresponding affects in terms of nest success/failure? If not,...why not? ....And if such research showed that mushroom hunters,...as well as the myriad other recreational users,...were more of a problem that hunters, would those folks also be banned from doing "their thing" in the woods after noon? 

The point of this diatribe is that wildlife managers need to look at the "big picture" rather than getting into the mind-set that because hunters are the ones "pulling the trigger" then they must be the culprit in terms of struggling turkey populations.  Admittedly, that might be the case in certain, isolated situations/circumstances,...but it is not the case in the large majority of instances. ...And even if hunting might be the problem, choosing noon closures as the solution would be way down the list of choices to be made,...in my opinion.

Now, before I get accused on contradicting my position stated in other posts, let me be clear that hunters need to understand that arbitrarily shooting hens because they were "in the way" of their gobbler,...or because they happen to have grown a beard,...is not a good idea.  In the long run, it may not have any significant impact on the resource, but it is best just not to take that chance.  The more hens that are in the woods, the more eggs that are laid,...which might hatch into little turkeys,...which might grow to be big turkeys,...of which some might be big gobblers!

I think you may have the original meaning behind mid day stoppage.  The original intent was to allow turkey to "do their thing" in the afternoons with as little intrusion as possible.  Now I'm not sure the "statistical" time at which most turkey do their breeding, but most turkey hunters would choose to hunt mornings more than afternoons.  That is the reason for half days.  To give turkey time to settle, breed, then roost relatively unmolested.

Now of course, there are hikers, mushroom pickers, turkey scouting, etc.  But in the grand scheme, I am willing to bet that there is a massive decrease in human intervention when afternoon hunting is closed.

I have hunted several states with all kinds of opposing regulations.  It seems that the state with afternoon closures typically have better afternoon gobbling, more roost gobbling, and just generally better hunting experiences (i.e. workable toms in late season). 

Also, everything is relative.  Those attributes mentioned were in states with heavy turkey populations.  But in WI (which is how this post started) those late season birds are tough after being chased 4-5 weeks straight.  I had my fair share of luck, but I am willing to bet that if those first 2-3 weeks were morning only, they would have a tremendous changing in the downswing they are currently in.

I'd say, instead of splitting the first 2-3 weeks up into quotas, make it a 14-21 day "First Season" with half days.  Then do the typical "Season B, C, D, etc".

Then after two-three seasons, as GobbleNut stated, RECORD AND PRESENT STATISTICAL DATA TO THE PUBLIC.  That

[owlhoot]

The point

Now, before I get accused on contradicting my position stated in other posts, let me be clear that hunters need to understand that arbitrarily shooting hens because they were "in the way" of their gobbler,...or because they happen to have grown a beard,...is not a good idea.  In the long run, it may not have any significant impact on the resource, but it is best just not to take that chance.  The more hens that are in the woods, the more eggs that are laid,...which might hatch into little turkeys,...which might grow to be big turkeys,...of which some might be big gobblers!

Yep and amen

[GobbleNut]

PRESENT STATISTICAL DATA TO THE PUBLIC. 

Absolutely,...where that is possible/feasible.  But above all, don't resort to "knee-jerk" management decisions that have no basis in verifiable fact. In addition, if you are going to make management decisions to try to solve a problem, start with the things that matter the most and then go downhill from there if those don't work.

Folks have been citing personal experience within their states.  Here's mine from New Mexico:

NM started its spring gobbler hunting season back around 1965.  Little was known about the impacts of spring seasons other than having the fundamental biological basis of "turkeys are polygamous so most gobblers are surplus and can be harvested". After roughly 15 years of short one-bird-limit seasons that resulted in the conclusion that "hey, we can do this without impacting the resource,...and it's really a lot of fun",...we started lobbying for more liberal seasons in terms of length and limit.

However, we had also determined one fundamental premise as a key:  Don't start the spring hunt until after the turkeys have had ample time to breed to insure as close to complete hen fertility as we can.  That premise was a bit hard to sell because folks that wanted to turkey hunt started hearing gobblers gobbling a month or more before the season started and wanted to get out there and hunt them then.  Those of us with wildlife backgrounds and with keen interests in turkeys basically just said,..."no, we are not going to start hunting them until we feel certain they have had a chance to breed."  On the other hand, it was also concluded that there was no reason not to add a bit of time on the back end of the season to accommodate the desire of hunters to have more time afield. 

In addition, we started talking about allowing more than a single gobbler in the spring season,...we wanted to increase the limit to two birds to allow for more hunting opportunity for those hunters who might get lucky and kill a gobbler early in the season. That really met with strong opposition from the state's wildlife folks.  Biological justification be damned,..."we only allow hunters to kill one of a big game species a year, and by God, that's what we are supposed to do with turkeys!"

Now, at the same time they had that mentality, they were also allowing rifle hunters to mow down turkeys in the fall as a consolation prize for deer hunters.  Any turkey that moved was fair game,...and yet, our turkey populations were more or less holding steady even with that onslaught.  The very same wildlife managers that were telling us we could not have a two-bird spring limit for surplus gobblers because it would impact the resource too much were telling us that it was okay to declare war on turkeys in the fall by hunters that were not even really hunting turkeys!

Because of that "kill 'em all in the fall" mentality, we did have a few places in our state where turkeys were struggling.  Some of us argued,..."How can you justify the indiscriminate killing of turkeys in the fall in those places and yet turn around and tell us we can't shoot additional gobblers in the spring?"  They had no good answer except for "that's just how we do it here".

It took us another fifteen years to slowly change the mind-set of those folks.  We finally convinced them to stop steam-rolling turkeys in the fall,...and that allowing an additional bird in the spring was biologically sound.  Here, years later, we have reasonable fall and spring hunting, our turkey populations have been stable or improving for a long time, and turkey hunters are happy all the way around.

It is amazing what a little management based on science and open-mindedness (by all parties) can accomplish....   

[Bay1985]

Climate change is having an effect on the chukars I hunt in ID and OR.  I wonder if it's affecting turkeys. 

Of course it is,...but you don't want to mention the "CC word" around here....  Too many climate scientists on here that disagree with that assessment....   
(....and I fully expect we will here from some of them shortly....    )

Here's one "Climate Change " expert that missed his prediction lol.

If winter kill is a problem in states like Michigan and Wisconsin then wouldn't global warming be beneficial, that is "IF" it was real lol. Anybody else notice the same NASA that has done all these CC predictions are the same NASA that predicted Global cooling in the 1970's. They also said the Mississippi River was drying up?? Hard to tell with all the flooding going on. Weather cycles and is not under our control so we have to work on the problems we can control. Habitat,predators and hunting mortality


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[eggshell]

I am a hard sell on the limiting hunting time. I don't have a problem only hunting a half day, but I also enjoy hunting a full day. Here in Ohio we traditionally had only half day hunting until the last few years the last two weeks allowed full day hunting. Afternoon hunting has never really took off locally. What makes me wonder just how much value this strategy has is one simple observance. I started hunting turkeys in 1971 and they were pretty restricted to certain state forest areas and by today's standards were not high density  nor widespread. The few birds we had got a lot of hunting pressure by today's standards. The small areas that had birds drew attention from hunters as far away as a 3 hr drive. Those birds flourished and multiplied like crazy and expanded their territory exponentially. Now it was only half day hunting, but I saw the same thing happen in  other states that had all day hunting. I personally think it is a minor issue in considering what is causing the decline. I think it's far more complicated than that. If those early populations could withstand the onslaught they had every spring, why can't today's birds? Several post back Gobblenut brought up recruitment. If we are getting recruitment in the zero gain or plus range then our flocks should not be declining. So we need to determine why we had plus (X^1-9) for many years and now are negative values. I seriously doubt changing hunting  times will stop a decline. Ohio's turkey population is estimated at 200,000. With the fall harvest (because that is the only time hens are legally killed) being around 1200-1500 annually and approximately 50% of that being female. That is 3.75% of the total population taken by hunters. Populations I'm guessing run more female than male due to gobbler harvest (~19,000 gobblers per year the last 5 years). Studies have shown gobblers suffer approx. a 10-15% mortality to hunting annually. If you factor that it brings you to ~5.3% of the breeding hen population. I doubt that incidental spring kills would add another .25% to that. To be in decline you have to have recruitment levels at zero gain or less or less than 1.5 surviving poults per hen in the spring, allowing for hunting. If you take the approx. 750 hens killed in the fall in Ohio then apply a 1.5/hen poult count you are adding 1,125 new recruits @ 50/50 hen to Males. That is assuming every one of those hens successfully produced 1.5 poults, which we know they would not. A good guess is 2/3rds will raise broods. Those would all be net gain birds. The numbers I heard thrown around most was 2.0 plus poults per hen survival as a target for sustaining 0 gain  population. IN Ohio we have seen a sustained levels above that, Mark Wiley (ODNR Turkey Biologist) stated in an article:

The 20 year poult-per-hen (pph) average is 2.9 — or an average of nearly three poults seen with each hen. In previous years, the state has seen an average of as many as 3 pph, and the highest was 5.9 following the brood V cicada emergence in 1999. "https://www.gameandfishmag.com/editorial/2018-ohio-turkey-hunting-outlook/191377

So in Ohio with a harvest that is around 20% of the total population annually we are left with ~160,000 turkeys as a breeding population. If only 50% of that is hens then we have ~ 80,000 hens. Those surviving hens only need to produce 40,000 poults to replace the harvest or .5 per hen. We all know that natural mortality takes many of those adults birds, so I'm guessing that balances out to the 2/hen. At 2.9/ hen average we have a growing and harvestable surplus.  I have read that Arkansas has been 1.2 for several years as a comparison. They are loosing their birds somewhere other than hunters. It could be predators or anything.

If declines are serious then hunting restrictions would be a valid response, but I can tell you that I am pretty confident in saying that even if all hunting stopped on a declining population that the decline would continue. in today's world of regulated hunting species are not being hunted into extinction or even decline. The issue lies elsewhere. Modern hunting is managed to harvest surplus only. I do not have the answer beyond that. I know in my area the population has declined from what it once was but has been very stable for the last 10+ years. I think some of the concern is only in the minds of hunters who wrongly assumed the population explosion max production would last forever.

Here are the numbers I used:
http://wildlife.ohiodnr.gov/portals/wildlife/pdfs/hunting/2018%20Fall%20Turkey%20Report.pdf