Wisconsin's Flock Dwindling

[owlhoot]

Interesting stuff Hillbilly.Wonder how many turkey tags were sold and how many trappers sold coon?

[Rzrbac]

Figure most know I'm not a fan of MO, lived here all my life. My job forced me to aware of MO politics. I can say from experience, you are only likely to encounter a game warden on the first weekend of the season. Everybody know that, each year I tell them I appreciate their efforts but the poachers were in the woods a few weeks ago. I tell them it's not hard to hear shotguns when the birds start gobbling.

This winter I called our local game warden about a sick deer by my house. I left 3 messages and never heard back from him.

[Wisgobbler]

Clearly the issue is much more than a problem of people shooting bearded hens, that's a peeve of mine personally so I guess I tend to emphasize that more. We obviously need to do more to curb predation. I grew up running a trap line and way back in the '70s I remember that most of the young guys I knew did the same.  Fur prices were high and lots of guys I knew owned walkers or blue tick hounds and ran coons all night. That's beautiful music still to my old redneck ears lol.
I've been watching some YouTube videos of guys calling coons in the daylight hours from den trees with electronic callers. I'm going to use some of my deer archery season up to do this. I care about turkeys and turkey hunting a lot more than deer anyway.
It seems to me also that in general the mindset of many hunters has shifted from hunter/conservationists to hunter /glory seeker. I can't change everyone's views and rightly so but I can do my best to kill predators, exercise good judgement in not intentionally killing hens during the spring hunt, shooting either male birds or Jenny's during the fall hunt and educating as many people (gently) as I have access to.
Social media is a double edged sword to us.... many of us like to share our successes with like minded hunters, honestly that comradely that we share is something to be cherished but for some it leads to numbers killing and fishing for "likes". Too often some feel that numbers of birds killed is the measure of a great hunter.
Some of the issues we face going forward can be solved by mentoring new hunters and going back to our roots as fundamentally conservation minded stewards like those before us who initially laid the foundations for us and start treating turkey hunting as a heritage rather than a competition sport.
I think personally I'd rather be thought of as a hunter who was a great conservationist than as a great hunter. Obviously we have a big task before us. But it's nothing in comparison to the challenges faced by the men who saved the wild turkey to begin with.
We need to become much more proactive in our sport. I know many here are.  And my hat is off to them. I'm primarily speaking to myself and others like me who honestly could do more... I say these things respectfully and without malice and they are just my thoughts after careful consideration and after reading the responses of many here.


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[Ozarks Hillbilly]

Interesting stuff Hillbilly.Wonder how many turkey tags were sold and how many trappers sold coon?

I found this in the 2011 survey pertaining to permit sold vs turkey reportedly harvested.

   Missouri's first modern spring turkey hunting season was held in 1960. Less than 1,000
hunters participated in the 3-day season, which was open in 14 counties and resulted in a harvest
of less than 100 turkeys. Since this early season, the popularity of spring turkey hunting has
increased dramatically. Spring permit sales exceeded 50,000 for the first time in 1980 and
100,000 in 1998. In 2003, over 130,000 spring turkey hunting permits were sold in Missouri; in
2004, over 60,000 turkeys were harvested during the spring turkey season.

[Dtrkyman]

Central Illinois had a peak in the late 90s early 2000s, when I first started hunting down there I was scouting some creeks for deer sign, I had noticed I couldn't find any coin tracks, weird since where I previously hunted coons were everywhere!

Talked to some locals and the coons had gotten distemper and were virtually wiped out. Bird population exploded.

Coons and other best robbers are at a high again and I also believe that bush honey suckle is a huge issue!


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[Spurs]

Clearly the issue is much more than a problem of people shooting bearded hens, that's a peeve of mine personally so I guess I tend to emphasize that more. We obviously need to do more to curb predation. I grew up running a trap line and way back in the '70s I remember that most of the young guys I knew did the same.  Fur prices were high and lots of guys I knew owned walkers or blue tick hounds and ran coons all night. That's beautiful music still to my old redneck ears lol.
I've been watching some YouTube videos of guys calling coons in the daylight hours from den trees with electronic callers. I'm going to use some of my deer archery season up to do this. I care about turkeys and turkey hunting a lot more than deer anyway.
It seems to me also that in general the mindset of many hunters has shifted from hunter/conservationists to hunter /glory seeker. I can't change everyone's views and rightly so but I can do my best to kill predators, exercise good judgement in not intentionally killing hens during the spring hunt, shooting either male birds or Jenny's during the fall hunt and educating as many people (gently) as I have access to.
Social media is a double edged sword to us.... many of us like to share our successes with like minded hunters, honestly that comradely that we share is something to be cherished but for some it leads to numbers killing and fishing for "likes". Too often some feel that numbers of birds killed is the measure of a great hunter.
Some of the issues we face going forward can be solved by mentoring new hunters and going back to our roots as fundamentally conservation minded stewards like those before us who initially laid the foundations for us and start treating turkey hunting as a heritage rather than a competition sport.
I think personally I'd rather be thought of as a hunter who was a great conservationist than as a great hunter. Obviously we have a big task before us. But it's nothing in comparison to the challenges faced by the men who saved the wild turkey to begin with.
We need to become much more proactive in our sport. I know many here are.  And my hat is off to them. I'm primarily speaking to myself and others like me who honestly could do more... I say these things respectfully and without malice and they are just my thoughts after careful consideration and after reading the responses of many here.


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Being proactive without the backing of most game agencies is extremely tough.  Speaking on WI, I have nothing but praise for the habitat development on their public lands.  I have hunted three seasons up there (was there working for two then came back for a week for one season).  REAL food plots, legit timber thinning, controlled burns, and dynamite nesting habitat.  Down south, habitat development on public property has become a thing of the past.  In a few areas that I grew up cutting my teeth, they used to have somewhat of a game plan.  We had decent food plots, they weren't scared of thinning timber, and controlled burns happened every February.  Now, none of that happens to any measurable degree.

What many people need to figure out is that turkey populations are relative to MULTIPLE issues.  There isn't just one or two simple fixes.  Like you said, everyone has that one thing that really touches a nerve.  Mine in AR is the lack of information passed on to the general public by the Game and Fish agency.  We have some really sketchy guys on the commission who obviously have ulterior motive (mainly on the duck hunting side of things).  That has created a huge void when it comes to turkey hunting due to the lack of involvement.

[GobbleNut]

Clearly the issue is much more than a problem of people shooting bearded hens, that's a peeve of mine personally so I guess I tend to emphasize that more. We obviously need to do more to curb predation. I grew up running a trap line and way back in the '70s I remember that most of the young guys I knew did the same.  Fur prices were high and lots of guys I knew owned walkers or blue tick hounds and ran coons all night. That's beautiful music still to my old redneck ears lol.
I've been watching some YouTube videos of guys calling coons in the daylight hours from den trees with electronic callers. I'm going to use some of my deer archery season up to do this. I care about turkeys and turkey hunting a lot more than deer anyway.
It seems to me also that in general the mindset of many hunters has shifted from hunter/conservationists to hunter /glory seeker. I can't change everyone's views and rightly so but I can do my best to kill predators, exercise good judgement in not intentionally killing hens during the spring hunt, shooting either male birds or Jenny's during the fall hunt and educating as many people (gently) as I have access to.
Social media is a double edged sword to us.... many of us like to share our successes with like minded hunters, honestly that comradely that we share is something to be cherished but for some it leads to numbers killing and fishing for "likes". Too often some feel that numbers of birds killed is the measure of a great hunter.
Some of the issues we face going forward can be solved by mentoring new hunters and going back to our roots as fundamentally conservation minded stewards like those before us who initially laid the foundations for us and start treating turkey hunting as a heritage rather than a competition sport.
I think personally I'd rather be thought of as a hunter who was a great conservationist than as a great hunter. Obviously we have a big task before us. But it's nothing in comparison to the challenges faced by the men who saved the wild turkey to begin with.
We need to become much more proactive in our sport. I know many here are.  And my hat is off to them. I'm primarily speaking to myself and others like me who honestly could do more... I say these things respectfully and without malice and they are just my thoughts after careful consideration and after reading the responses of many here.


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Being proactive without the backing of most game agencies is extremely tough.  Speaking on WI, I have nothing but praise for the habitat development on their public lands.  I have hunted three seasons up there (was there working for two then came back for a week for one season).  REAL food plots, legit timber thinning, controlled burns, and dynamite nesting habitat.  Down south, habitat development on public property has become a thing of the past.  In a few areas that I grew up cutting my teeth, they used to have somewhat of a game plan.  We had decent food plots, they weren't scared of thinning timber, and controlled burns happened every February.  Now, none of that happens to any measurable degree.

What many people need to figure out is that turkey populations are relative to MULTIPLE issues.  There isn't just one or two simple fixes.  Like you said, everyone has that one thing that really touches a nerve.  Mine in AR is the lack of information passed on to the general public by the Game and Fish agency.  We have some really sketchy guys on the commission who obviously have ulterior motive (mainly on the duck hunting side of things).  That has created a huge void when it comes to turkey hunting due to the lack of involvement.

Excellent points made, guys.  Good to see this kind of thoughtful discussion going on.   I couldn't agree more with your comments. 

[ybuck]

I think predators and weather have more to do with a bad year or two around my area. Like was stated hardly anyone manages predators anymore. One predator that gets good at finding eggs or learns how to kill turkeys will wipe out way more than any poacher or a hunter that legally decides to shoot a bearded hen..

i agree with this as well

[tal]

 What spurs said.  Real hunters using our natural resources. No better information.

[fallhnt]

Central Illinois had a peak in the late 90s early 2000s, when I first started hunting down there I was scouting some creeks for deer sign, I had noticed I couldn't find any coin tracks, weird since where I previously hunted coons were everywhere!

Talked to some locals and the coons had gotten distemper and were virtually wiped out. Bird population exploded.

Coons and other best robbers are at a high again and I also believe that bush honey suckle is a huge issue!


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This is an example of a new population growing. Don't know what you consider central IL but central IL didn't have a modern Spring season until ~ '95. Populations where growing after introduction in the late '80s and haven't been hunted. Again, more prey equals more predators. The region is doing well but it is agricultural land. Small wood lots,crp, crops.  Good habitat for a bird once thought to need thousands of acres of continuous timber. Land that holds ~ 30 birds per 1k acres of good habitat.  Not bad for a state thats not really a turkey hunting destination. IL suffers from what all good Whitetail states suffer from. Leases tie up land that gets limited hunting. It's hard to kill a turkey on land with no access. This is a small percentage of decreased overall harvest. IL is also about 95% privately owned. Buffalo county WI comes to mind when compared to IL. I wonder what the overall harvest is compared to "the good 'ol days". When did leasing become the norm in Buffalo county ? When did that area have its first modern Spring season?

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[Paulmyr]

Public, private it don't matter. Turkey hunting is what you make of it. I spent  a month and a few days camping and turkey hunting. The beginning of my second year of turkey hunting in Georgia back in the around 1990.  Turkey population was healthy as far as my research went and from the state park officer( an avid turkey Hunter himself)who I became good friends with.  For the 1st month during an unusually cold spring I heard 0 gobbles. That was with getting up every mourn at 3:30am and going to spots where I had seen sign and seen turkeys on private adjacent to public land. They just we're not gobbling. The 1st turkey I shot in GA was I when I sat on the end of Ridgeline that dumped into private property and made like a turkey fight cutting on my diaphragm and loud fighting purrs on pot. A hen from down below took acception to my calling and fired back. I gave her exactly what she was giving me and it wasn't yelps or cutts it was a mixture of both combind and not in any order. It was like baby talk but only from a turkey. She came out of private sassing like that and I gave everything right back at her. When I see her 20 yrds below a Tom fires off( the 1st gobble I heard in GA In about a month. She moves off to my right as I duck my head so she can not see my eyes and he comes out of private gobbling his head off. He comes up to where she is and as luck would have it behind a patch of may apple. He was strutting back and fourth buy would only stick his head out beyond the brush to see the other turkeys that were supposedly there. As he was moving left I cutt at him to try and get him to expose himself.The hen cutt back and started moving away cutting. He gave one last look in an open spot in the brush about the size of your hand but my bead was waiting for him because he Stuck his head in there a couple times to look while he was moving back and forth. 2 days later I had to go home because I promised my mother I'd be home for Easter! Only heard one other turkey gobble that trip but that's a whole different story. The next year in pasture next to the state park where I was camping there were 15 or more Jake's strutting around every day right next to the road.  The next year I brought a buddy down and turkey were gobbling everywhere!

[eggshell]

Ok I just wrote a book on here and I hit one button and it all disappeared....aaarrrggg
,
I will now try and summarize what I wrote. It is true that when animals are introduced new to habitat they explode and fill the habitat even to the extent of over-population. I have watched this happen and both Ohio and Kentucky. They will then fall off and come back to what is a holding pattern or as known by Wildlife managers as carrying capacity. Things that influence that is land use, predators, season weather, food and last and least hunting. Before game laws hunting was one of the top along with habitat loss. As a youth I worked with my dad farming, managing timber land and with a corporate CEO who had a private WMA that we farmed for. My dad always left grain and cover for wildlife. We only select cut timber. My cousins won national tree farm of the year once and my dad won the state conservation award for farmers (an award they no longer give to my knowledge). We hunted and trapped fur bearers hard for winter income.
Jump forward 40 years. Both my dad, one cousin and the corporate guy are gone. My brother in-law took over the farm in the late 70s and instantly bulldozed out fences rows and woods lines. Plowed up 20 acres my dad always left for nesting cover. The land that the CEO had, sold and the timber cut hard, a real estate developer split the farm land into lots and now homes and mowed lawns sit where quail roamed. State lands were rarely timbered and then only select cuts, now they ravage it for every dollar. I trapped hard and a good year was 25 raccoons. In the 80s and 90s I learned to grade fur and graded for a large fur auction. We sold tens of thousands of pelts. I actually bought into the company as a partner. In the late 90s we went broke and closed when we could no longer make a profit. After that fur market broke coons exploded. I would set traps just to keep them out of my garden and garage. I caught 13 in my garage one year. I do think they impact birds. It is normal to see the population fall off and develop a carrying capacity. Hunting will rarely change this with the current laws. Yearly reproductive success accounts for variations. So the things we can control is land use (including habitat mngt.), harvest and public awareness. Predator control is only a player in extreme cases as they usually balance out with available prey, but I agree coons are at an extreme level. You can research work by Aldo Leopold on predator control in the SW U.S. and see it is a mistake to eliminate all predators. Another player is invasive species that influence habitat and are competition (i.e. Hogs). For the most part it is human attitude towards are resources that have the most impact....to take from the land and not give back. I do think that this is changing somewhat and many are gaining conservation awareness again, it's a cycle. The down side is what we have lost in many  cases can not be recovered. As hunting wanes and less young people take it up conservation suffers. Hunters will sacrifice maximized land use and profit for conservation, but non hunters (as a rule) will only have ancillary interest in conservation, providing only basic funding to ease their conscious as consumers and to have pretty places to play. With the death of the American outdoorsman come the decline of conservation and species. TAKE THAT PETA!

[GobbleNut]

Again,...all good points being made.  After all is said and done, the one thing that we, as turkey hunters, can change is our attitudes.  That is,...quit killing so many of them!...and do something positive for insuring their future well-being!  I know that hurts some feelings of the "the limit is one-a-day for sixty days so I gotta kill sixty turkeys" crowd, but there reaches a point when populations fall that you have to stop with that attitude!

Just because the limit was a zillion back when the turkey population was ten times what it is now does not mean you still need to kill a zillion today.  I know that is hard for some folks to accept, but when turkey numbers fall to a certain point, we should be willing to accept the fact that maybe we should leave a few more of them in the woods for the future.

I am one of the "you can't stockpile turkeys" crowd,...but I am also one of the "just because the limit is four or five gobblers does not mean I have to kill that many to prove I am good at this" crowd, as well.  For hunters, there is a balance to be had between hunting opportunity and the pile of dead turkeys you can stack up and the well-being of the resource,....not necessarily in terms of quantity,...but most definitely in terms of quality, at least when talking about spring gobbler hunting.

On public land in particular, having too many of the "I'm gonna kill every gobbler I can, and then I'm gonna gather up every other person I know, take them out, and show them just how great a turkey hunter I am" crowd is eventually going to destroy the quality,...and possibly the quantity,...of the hunting there. 

Catch and release fishing is considered to be a noble endeavor nowadays.  Perhaps, turkey hunters should adopt a new mantra of "call 'em in, but let some of them walk away" mantra, too. 

[owlhoot]

Interesting stuff Hillbilly.Wonder how many turkey tags were sold and how many trappers sold coon?

I found this in the 2011 survey pertaining to permit sold vs turkey reportedly harvested.

   Missouri's first modern spring turkey hunting season was held in 1960. Less than 1,000
hunters participated in the 3-day season, which was open in 14 counties and resulted in a harvest
of less than 100 turkeys. Since this early season, the popularity of spring turkey hunting has
increased dramatically. Spring permit sales exceeded 50,000 for the first time in 1980 and
100,000 in 1998. In 2003, over 130,000 spring turkey hunting permits were sold in Missouri; in
2004, over 60,000 turkeys were harvested during the spring turkey season.

Interesting.
So to add the total numbers of spring turkey hunters for 2017 was 137,050 . Which was 10% less than 2016 and 7% less than the previous five year average.
Total harvest was 43,343 for 2017. This is 10% less than 2016 and 8% below the previous 5 year average.
This is a significant drop from 2004 total of 60,000.

[eggshell]

Good point Gobblenut. I am fortunate I have almost total control of turkey hunting on over 1,000 acres. I control that harvest as well. I keep tabs on what I think is there and I set the limit at 25% of the mature gobblers can be removed, if the right circumstance occurs I'll allow a jake or two. I regularly get hit up by the local crowd about how I get to hunt "that honey hole all by myself". Sure that makes my life pretty sweet come turkey season, but it is a "honey hole " because it is controlled. every part of this property is managed, from timber to farming and land use. I am proud to say it's a showplace as to what can be done and has won national awards. We do fall hunt it and that limit is 3-4 fall birds and any gobbler counts towards spring as well. This spring I accounted for 14 mature gobblers and we took 3 off. A neighbor did call one off onto him and that made 4. Last fall we took one hen. I estimate the resident flock at 40-50 birds total. I think we're doing good as it seems like the numbers are about the same every year. I know this would be hard to do on public land, but it is a model that works. Now my numbers are conservative and we could probably survive a 50% harvest across the board, but it would no longer be a honey hole and a couple bad nesting years would really hurt.