Arkansas turkey population

[davisd9]

My opinion.  I've seen it here in Bama and Georgia for several years.  Simple math is your biggest enemy.  Everybody wants to blame the yotes, bobcats and nest robbers.   Birds have been faced with that from day one.   The simple math I mentioned.   More and more hunters, less and less suitable habitat.  Then factor in a turkey isn't that hard to kill in the spring.   States allow way to many aides to hunt a bird that isn't that hard to kill to begin with, blinds, decoys etc.  So more people, less suitable habitat, long seasons in the South and numerous aides to make even a novice a successful turkey hunter.  And throw in the desire to post hero shots and videos on social media.   When I do the math I come up with less turkeys.  Again, just my opinion and I'm a crazy old man.

Amen and add long range shooting hailed as technology advancement.


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[ccleroy]

My opinion.  I've seen it here in Bama and Georgia for several years.  Simple math is your biggest enemy.  Everybody wants to blame the yotes, bobcats and nest robbers.   Birds have been faced with that from day one.   The simple math I mentioned.   More and more hunters, less and less suitable habitat.  Then factor in a turkey isn't that hard to kill in the spring.   States allow way to many aides to hunt a bird that isn't that hard to kill to begin with, blinds, decoys etc.  So more people, less suitable habitat, long seasons in the South and numerous aides to make even a novice a successful turkey hunter.  And throw in the desire to post hero shots and videos on social media.   When I do the math I come up with less turkeys.  Again, just my opinion and I'm a crazy old man.

Pretty spot on, add in a couple years of bad hatches/horrible hatch weather and you're in the red. SC just did a study where the findings are that we're interfering in the breeding cycle to early. I can see that and agree, especially with how easy it is for a deer hunter to walk into Walmart and walk out a turkey hunter.

[Tomfoolery]

We are in the same situation here in Louisiana. The game and fish dept. blames habitat loss etc. but some of the places I hunt had turkeys and now don't with zero change to habitat. This season I walked and scouted/hunted huge areas of NF that has a control burning program and some food plots planted. Zero tracks Zero gobbling on consecutive good mornings just no turkeys. I agree the hogs are a contributing factor. You'd have to hunt an area with a high hog population to appreciate there impact. If there's one there's probably a hundred and they spend all day and night rooting around looking for something to eat. There's so many of them scouring the woods there going to make an impact.
But I don't think hogs are the only issue some parts of La don't have a high hog population but still no turkeys. There are some small pockets of turkeys mostly on private land but not everywhere there's turkey habitat. I have to hunt longer and harder each season to kill one when I move on to other states it's almost unbelievable the amount of turkeys in some states. This season in La has about made my mind up to hunt other states and leave La be until something changes. They have moved the season opener into April so more hens will be bread before the Gobblers get hunted, maybe it will help but we need more than that.
To address Gobbnuts suggestions, they are good ones if you could get someone to listen. I have repeatedly emailed and called the La wildlife and fisheries about what it would take to buy some turkeys from another state and prop up our dwindling populations. Only response I got was "all the availabile habitat has been stocked" maybe in 1980 but we need some more. A lot of people profess to be Turkey hunters and spend plenty of time fouling up the woods and messing others up, but would not spend a dime to help buy turkeys for transplant. As far as the NWTF I've never heard anything back.
I think common sense would tell you that if you saturated a WMA with good habitat, with birds from another state and closed just that one WMA for a few years whatever the problem is predation, disease inbreeding whatever, would be offset by the new birds. Eventually the population would grow and spread out. If you did this just in the WMAs were the hunting could be controlled easier you'd see an increase. La original stocking program was stupid at best I have the numbers of how many birds were released per year and it was a joke dribbling 5 or 6 birds across a whole state isn't going to do anything.Example in 1962 the state of La released 1 turkey in the whole state 1. What is one turkey going to do? Other states were releasing 20 or so in one location. The thing is everyone wants to be a turkey hunter but no one wants to do anything to help but complain. I plan to try one last time to get an answer  or some action. Good luck in Arkansas hope you have better luck than we have.

It's bad. I don't get as much time as I'd like to be in the woods but dang these last 2 years seem to progressively get worse. I know exactly what you are talking about with the NF being a ghost town. Theres a spot I have hunted for years that ALWAYS had turkeys. Could always hear multiple birds in different locations from this spot. Haven't heard a bird there in 4 years. And it seems like it happened over night. The last year I hunted and did good, it was good. Then the next year there wasn't even a turkey in the same parish. I almost think that ldwf moved birds out of there. I know they were trapped at some point because one of the last ones killed there was banded. The way LA politics is i wouldn't put it past mayor jim bob needed his private lamd stocked with Turkeys so jimbobs nephew representative pulled some strings and had ldwf stock his property from birds elsewhere. Now I'm not saying that's what happened, but with the history of politics here I wouldn't put it past them. Not to meantion the 1 or 2 turkeys that are left in the woods have PTSD 2 hours after daylight on opening morning after all the owl hootin, crow calling, horn honking, driving trucks into the bottoms and scratchin their box call. Like you I've decided to use my time off starting next year hunting other states that actually gate trails off and have a decent population of turkeys. I can't for the life of me understand why anyone in the world would want to travel to Louisiana to turkey hunt.

[oleman59]

Its same here in Ga to numbers way down and its basically 3 causes. 1 High number of nest predators 2 The use of Chicken litter for fertilizer on hay fields and crop lands Turkeys can contract Black head disease from the fecal matter on the ground ingested by earth worms 3 the Lack of diversity within the habitat on USFS lands no logging going own In my area and most of North Ga got to have some young  growth forest for a variety of wildlife game animals as well as Non_game. Turkey Numbers in this area have been on decline since early 2000s

[zeke632]

I live in the Ouachita Mts in SE Oklahoma. We have the same issues that this discussion is about. Our season has been cut back to the last 10 days of April until May 6 for several years now. I can't see that it's helping. Granted a longer season wouldn't be the answer obviously. I don't think the wildlife Dept actually knows what the problem is. Predators, hogs, dry summer, wet spring, bears are all being blamed.  Poaching is pretty big here.  Not enough wardens to cover a big part of the state.

The USFS does some burning here and maybe it helps.  I read over and over that it does but our turkey numbers are way down and quail are gone. The areas that are burned are pretty good to hunt in right after the burn, still good the next year but are so grown up by the time season starts it's to thick to hunt after that. No noticeable increase in the turkey numbers in the areas around what's been burned to say it's created better nesting. I don't know what the deal is,  nor do I think the state turkey experts who are employed by the state know.  Or wouldn't they fix it, or come out with an answer saying " here's the problem or problems guys let's work together to get the numbers back.

[kjnengr]

A buddy sent me this yesterday.....

https://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/out-there/2013/11/what-happened-our-quail-observations-old-quail-hunter

The loss of edible grass and poisoning could also carry over to turkey poults. 

However, I don't know how often herbicides are used on state land. 


It could be a lot to do with what Guesswho said. 

I started turkey hunting around 2010.  I really have no idea of what happened before then.  I would definitely say that turkey hunting has become more popular.  I also live in the same state as Tomfoolery and LaLongbeard and turkey hunting is pretty poor here in Louisiana so I can't say what it's like in many other states. 

As an outsider to other southeastern states I wonder, why are bag limits so high in certain (southern) states - despite people saying how comparatively hard it is to kill down here?


Another question for those with experience - How have turkey numbers changed on private land vs public land?

[Spitten and drummen]

What I cannot figure out is that I have a 1300 acre lease in Ms that has always had birds. 2 of us hunt it. Tons of pics in deer season of birds. Last 2 years they just disappear in turkey season. We dont even hear birds on our neighbors. I have had this place for 10 years and have had awesome hunting up until 2 years ago. They came in and logged 2/3 rds of it. They burned and planted it in october of last year. You would think birds would be all over it bugging and strutting but have not seen the first one. The cutting took place right before turkey season last year. We both killed our limit even then. This season we have taking 3 birds off of it and have only heard a handful of gobbles the rest of the season. No turkey sign anywhere. We have called up a few groups of hens with no gobblers with them. Again we had pics of 40 or 50 hens in a flock and 8 and 10 longbeards in a flock. These were as recent as the end of January. Cannot find but a couple of hen tracks on the whole place. Prior to the cutting you could hear at least a half dozen daily from start to finish of the season. Even the areas that were not cut on the place that you could work a bird almost anyday of the season seems void of birds. Anyone have any input or opinions on what the problem could be?

[Spurs]

My opinion.  I've seen it here in Bama and Georgia for several years.  Simple math is your biggest enemy.  Everybody wants to blame the yotes, bobcats and nest robbers.   Birds have been faced with that from day one.   The simple math I mentioned.   More and more hunters, less and less suitable habitat.  Then factor in a turkey isn't that hard to kill in the spring.   States allow way to many aides to hunt a bird that isn't that hard to kill to begin with, blinds, decoys etc.  So more people, less suitable habitat, long seasons in the South and numerous aides to make even a novice a successful turkey hunter.  And throw in the desire to post hero shots and videos on social media.   When I do the math I come up with less turkeys.  Again, just my opinion and I'm a crazy old man.

I began noticing the downfall several years before it hit the mainstream.  These conclusions are precisely what has added what was always a rather small population.

To add to your ideas, like many southern states, logging practices have had a negative effect as well.  Only 10-15% of Arkansas is public land, but paper companies own the vast majority.  Back in the 80s and 90s, timber stands were left to grow to their full potential before being clear cut.  Now, I have seen a transition to thinning twice, then clear cutting.  I feel your theory added with extreme forest manipulation has contributed much more than any hog, coyote, or nest snatcher could every think.

Like you said, MATH. Pointing at one problem is useless when attempting to find the solution.

[tnanh]

I agree about the logging practices. When Willamette sold to Hughes lumber what was once miles of checkerboarded clear cuts in Perry, Hickman, and Lewis counties in Middle Tennessee became miles and miles of cutover. People say turkeys love clear cuts but I don't see it. No roost trees for great distances. difficult to land if there were any and when predators approach turkeys have a difficult time taking flight from a two year old clear cut. North Alabama has had a population decline as well and I believe there are some substantial clear cuts there as well.

[GobbleNut]

Here's the deal, folks.  Spring gobbler seasons exist for one reason only.  Turkeys are polygamous.  That means having a few gobblers is all you need to ensure breeding of the hens in the population,...which translates to the management idea that it is okay to harvest those surplus gobblers running around without impacting the turkey population. 

In addition, if the hunting season is set properly, hunting will not take place until the turkeys have had a chance to breed.  After breeding has taken place, in theory, every single mature gobbler in a population could be harvested without impacting the resource,...IF there is annual recruitment (i.e...nesting success and poult survival to adulthood in most years).

I am by no means a fan of killing too many of the adult gobblers in a population.  At the same time, I suspect there are few, if any, places in this country where the gobbler population has been depleted by hunting to a level where the successful breeding of most of the breeding-age hens in a population is not taking place,...again, where hunting seasons are timed correctly (and probably even if they are not).   

The bottom line is that blaming spring gobbler hunting for declining turkey populations anywhere is totally misplaced.  It can impact hunting quality to a point where spring gobbler hunting is almost a futile exercise for most hunters, but that is a different story altogether.  However, when discussing turkey population declines, any discussion of harvest of male turkeys in the spring after breeding has taken place is a total waste of time.

[guesswho]

It's 4:30, go back to bed.

[nativeks]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.kansas.com/news/politics-government/article224470505.html

[Ihuntoldschool]

The timber harvest is the biggest reason for the decline in the Southeast.  In addition to that I agree with everything guesswho said. Get rid of those visual aids that some people use as a crutch who otherwise wouldn't be able to ever kill a turkey without their aid. Make it a challenge again. It's clear that the vast majority of hunters just want that easy kill at any cost with the use of any legal aid they can get their hands on. The turkey will withstand all other predators. Humans are the only real threat, in the form of logging and unfair hunting practices that tip the odds in the hunter's favor. Put the challenge back in turkey hunting. It's clear that most hunters are not willing to police themselves in this matter and regulation is necessary.

[Gumby]

The timber harvest is the biggest reason for the decline in the Southeast.  In addition to that I agree with everything guesswho said. Get rid of those visual aids that some people use as a crutch who otherwise wouldn't be able to ever kill a turkey without their aid. Make it a challenge again. It's clear that the vast majority of hunters just want that easy kill at any cost with the use of any legal aid they can get their hands on. The turkey will withstand all other predators. Humans are the only real threat, in the form of logging and unfair hunting practices that tip the odds in the hunter's favor. Put the challenge back in turkey hunting. It's clear that most hunters are not willing to police themselves in this matter and regulation is necessary.

Please don't take offense to this, but if y'all think decoys are the reason for the decline in the turkey population you are misguided. I do not use decoys and hunt by traditional methods and have forever....I agree with you that I think turkeys should be taken and hunted in a particular way. That's just my opinion. But as someone with a biology degree who has studied the subject of turkey populations, I cannot agree with the thought that since more male turkeys are now more easily killed via modern methods (such as decoys) there is a decline in the population as a whole across a large region.

[silvestris]

Here's the deal, folks.  Spring gobbler seasons exist for one reason only.  Turkeys are polygamous.  That means having a few gobblers is all you need to ensure breeding of the hens in the population,...which translates to the management idea that it is okay to harvest those surplus gobblers running around without impacting the turkey population. 

In addition, if the hunting season is set properly, hunting will not take place until the turkeys have had a chance to breed.  After breeding has taken place, in theory, every single mature gobbler in a population could be harvested without impacting the resource,...IF there is annual recruitment (i.e...nesting success and poult survival to adulthood in most years).

I am by no means a fan of killing too many of the adult gobblers in a population.  At the same time, I suspect there are few, if any, places in this country where the gobbler population has been depleted by hunting to a level where the successful breeding of most of the breeding-age hens in a population is not taking place,...again, where hunting seasons are timed correctly (and probably even if they are not).   

The bottom line is that blaming spring gobbler hunting for declining turkey populations anywhere is totally misplaced.  It can impact hunting quality to a point where spring gobbler hunting is almost a futile exercise for most hunters, but that is a different story altogether.  However, when discussing turkey population declines, any discussion of harvest of male turkeys in the spring after breeding has taken place is a total waste of time.

Finally, you have written something that I completely agree with.  Whatever is causing the decline of turkeys in the Southeast US, I cannot specifically say but I know of several factors contributing to the decline.  In essence, we are caught up in a perfect storm that will not be alleviated in my lifetime.  It has been a great ride.