At what point is an Eastern considered an Osceola?

[SD_smith]

The debate can be taken up as well for merriams.  A true merriam has white tip tail feathers.  Many hunt Nebraska and kill the buff colored merriam hybrid.  Many outfitters will tell you I have Osceolas or Merriams for the money but they don't.  A line drawn on a map is just a guide.

I agree on both. Most Black Hills Merriams are a buffed color, not Snow White anymore. Have to get on some of these very isolated river bottom birds to get the Snow White anymore in SD. Or head to MT to find them. WY still has some around too.

[JMalin]

White tips don't make a merriam.  I've killed Rios in Texas with white tips...

[SD_smith]

White tips don't make a merriam.  I've killed Rios in Texas with white tips...

That's cool. Must've been a funky gene...

[GobbleNut]

The debate can be taken up as well for merriams.  A true merriam has white tip tail feathers.  Many hunt Nebraska and kill the buff colored merriam hybrid.  Many outfitters will tell you I have Osceolas or Merriams for the money but they don't.  A line drawn on a map is just a guide.

I agree that the hybridization problem is widespread since the era of transplanting subspecies across the country. However, the commonly-held belief that the true identifying characteristic of the Merriam's subspecies is the purity of the white coloration is faulty.

The Merriam's white feather coloration varies to a great extent.  In some of it's historic range, the very white tail/rump feather coloration is somewhat rare, and in fact that white coloration is found more predominantly in transplanted Merriam's populations more than in historic, indigenous populations from what I have seen.

From my perspective having looked over a lot of gobblers of both the Merriam's and Rio Grande subspecies, the most reliable way to tell one from the other is the iridescence found in the sheen of the secondary bands of the rump feathers and the general, overall sheen of the bird.  Rios, and Rio hybrids will have a noticeable copperish sheen, most noticeable in the iridescent rump band. That copperish sheen seems to be a dominant trait in Rios and from what I have seen, always shows up in Rio hybrids.

On the other hand, Merriams have none of that and have an overall blackish purple sheen, also most noticeable in the rump iridescence. 

And another thing, to really see and comprehend those differences, you have to look at the bird in good sunlight. 

[Tomfoolery]

The debate can be taken up as well for merriams.  A true merriam has white tip tail feathers.  Many hunt Nebraska and kill the buff colored merriam hybrid.  Many outfitters will tell you I have Osceolas or Merriams for the money but they don't.  A line drawn on a map is just a guide.

I agree on both. Most Black Hills Merriams are a buffed color, not Snow White anymore. Have to get on some of these very isolated river bottom birds to get the Snow White anymore in SD. Or head to MT to find them. WY still has some around too.

I killed a bird last year in the black hills. I consider him a merriams because that's what i set out to hunt lol. He was pretty white though compared to all the rios i have killed

[dirtnap]

That is a pretty gobbler Tomfoolery.

[fallhnt]

White tips don't make a merriam.  I've killed Rios in Texas with white tips...

Spot on.  True Marriam have short legs,thus short beards.

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[Jroddc]

That is a pretty gobbler Tomfoolery.

X2

[guesswho]

I grew up hunting around Lakleland and as far South as the Glades.  If they gave my the crayon to draw the line it would be Hwy 70   

[Yoder409]

A lot of the color variation in tips and rump borders........no matter WHAT subspecies..........is due to turkeys being turkeys. 

On the home turf, I'm hunting Easterns.  None of them have EVER been within +/- 1000 miles of any other subspecies.  Yet, over the decades, I've seen and killed a pretty wide range of colors on the tips.  Just individual trait............    I can't help but think the other subspecies would, likewise, have individual traits, even if there were ZERO influence from cross-breeding with another subspecies. 

[Crghss]

Orlando and south.

[bbcoach]

Here you go gentlemen  http://www.nwtf.org/hunt/article/wild-turkey-subspecies  Read the first sentence for each sub species.  If you are hunting a specific area of the country for a certain species color is the true test.  Yes there are variations but you can't draw a line in the sand and say this is the cut off because turkeys have crossed that line for years.  If you are in Florida, you want black wings and dark brown or black tips, easterns have chestnut brown tips, rios buff and merriams white tipped.  There are many hybrid variations, as some have stated, for different areas.  CONGRATS on a BEAUTIFUL white tipped merriam Tomfoolery!

[GobbleNut]

Here you go gentlemen  http://www.nwtf.org/hunt/article/wild-turkey-subspecies  Read the first sentence for each sub species.  If you are hunting a specific area of the country for a certain species color is the true test.  Yes there are variations but you can't draw a line in the sand and say this is the cut off because turkeys have crossed that line for years.  If you are in Florida, you want black wings and dark brown or black tips, easterns have chestnut brown tips, rios buff and merriams white tipped.  There are many hybrid variations, as some have stated, for different areas.  CONGRATS on a BEAUTIFUL white tipped merriam Tomfoolery!

Interesting descriptions.  I wonder what secretary they got to write that up?   

All kidding aside, those general characteristic descriptions are just that,...general characteristics. They are also just "lay" descriptions used to try to help hunters identify their turkeys,...especially in areas that are a mix of genetics.  With the hybridization issues that exist nowadays, that is the best that a hunter can do.

Having hunted Merriam's turkeys for fifty-plus years in the heart of native Merriam's turkey range in New Mexico, I can state factually that the "snow white tail tips" description given is erroneous,...and in fact, is not even close to being accurate.  I will give that description a pass in that, when looking at live birds "on the hoof", they invariably look much whiter than they tend to be once their snood has hit the dirt.   

Yes, they will occasionally have very white tail and rump feathers (like Tomfoolery's), but most often their coloration is more accurately described as "pale buff" more than anything else.  If a person accepts the "white tips" description as fact, then there have been very few Merriam's turkeys killed in any of it's native ranges.   

Now, as for Tomfoolery's gobbler,...yes, it most certainly looks like a full-blooded Merriam's bird,...and I would call it that if I had to make a visual evaluation from that picture.  ...But if someone was to tell me I had to bet my life on it one way or the other,...and they were going to determine what it was from DNA analysis, I, for one, would be sweating bullets...or perhaps TSS... 

...And finally, my apologies for participating in getting this topic way side-tracked...but since we are here...   

[OJR]

We doubled on these two on an "Osceola" hunt near DeLand, FL last week. They were together with several other birds of dubious pedigree. You gott'a just hunt. I Have killed Merriam's in Montana that look like Rio's and Rio's in Texas that look like Merriam's. I'm just tickled I get to go.

[Tunaguy]

When he starts collecting SS and puts on some Bermuda shorts!