Kinetic energy Hevi vs. Lead

[Reloader]

This is the off side of a 22lb tom hit with hevi 7.5s at 35yds, the little red spots exited.  Both breast and breast bone were fully penetrated.  


I've seen the exact thing happen with 7.5s on two large toms where I held too low, both at 35yds.  I also commonly find flyers stuck to the off side hide that went completely through the bird. I broke a toms wing at 50 this year with 7.5s, had a buddy that broke a toms leg at 53, and witnessed a toms neck completely broken like a limp noodle with 7.5s at 55yds(LRF).

Turkeys are very easy to penetrate. Hunters get way too caught up in energy and penetration debates IMO.  If it says "Turkey" on the box, find out how far it will consistently place 100 in the 10, keep your shots to that limit in calm conditions, and go kill turkeys.  

Have a good one,

Reloader

[HogBiologist]

I am attaching my chart of shot KE in ft/lbs.  It shows all the various shot types in the common sizes shot on this page.  It shows the KE at various velocities.  I posted it before the crash, so I will post it again here.  Take note of 2 interisting things:

If it is really true that it takes 1.5 ft.lbs of KE to "kill" a turkey, then:

TSS #9 carries that at 700 fps
HS #7 (12 g/cc) carries that at about 650 fps

[attachment deleted by admin]

[jfair]

I am attaching my chart of shot KE in ft/lbs.  It shows all the various shot types in the common sizes shot on this page.  It shows the KE at various velocities.  I posted it before the crash, so I will post it again here.  Take note of 2 interisting things:

If it is really true that it takes 1.5 ft.lbs of KE to "kill" a turkey, then:

TSS #9 carries that at 700 fps
HS #7 (12 g/cc) carries that at about 650 fps

Looks like they are close to what I got.  Do you have any info on real velocities at different yardages?

[HogBiologist]

I am attaching my chart of shot KE in ft/lbs.  It shows all the various shot types in the common sizes shot on this page.  It shows the KE at various velocities.  I posted it before the crash, so I will post it again here.  Take note of 2 interisting things:

If it is really true that it takes 1.5 ft.lbs of KE to "kill" a turkey, then:

TSS #9 carries that at 700 fps
HS #7 (12 g/cc) carries that at about 650 fps

Looks like they are close to what I got.  Do you have any info on real velocities at different yardages?

Someone would need to make a steel plate cover for the front of their chrono to check downrange velocity.  Until then there is a computer program that is available, but it shows HS #7 losing steam areound 30 yds and we all know it holds out to 60 atleast.

[jfair]

I am attaching my chart of shot KE in ft/lbs.  It shows all the various shot types in the common sizes shot on this page.  It shows the KE at various velocities.  I posted it before the crash, so I will post it again here.  Take note of 2 interisting things:

If it is really true that it takes 1.5 ft.lbs of KE to "kill" a turkey, then:

TSS #9 carries that at 700 fps
HS #7 (12 g/cc) carries that at about 650 fps

Looks like they are close to what I got.  Do you have any info on real velocities at different yardages?

Someone would need to make a steel plate cover for the front of their chrono to check downrange velocity.  Until then there is a computer program that is available, but it shows HS #7 losing steam areound 30 yds and we all know it holds out to 60 atleast.

Why do we all know this?  This is kinda my point.  Allot of people are under the assumption that it is true because everyone is saying so.  I'm sure it starts losing steam the instant it leaves the barrel.  So does lead.  I would say a computer generated model would come real close if done by a physics dude smarter than I.   Do you have a link? 

[HogBiologist]

I dont have the program.  There is someone else on here that does.  But the results the computer gives are hypothetical, and there have been plenty of actual hands on testing that disproves the computer results.

and when it comes to losing steam, what slows down faster, a golf ball or a ping pong ball.  The more dense an object, the slower it decelerates.

[jfair]

I dont have the program.  There is someone else on here that does.  But the results the computer gives are hypothetical, and there have been plenty of actual hands on testing that disproves the computer results.

and when it comes to losing steam, what slows down faster, a golf ball or a ping pong ball.  The more dense an object, the slower it decelerates.

Agreed with the comparison.  But the weight difference between a golf ball and a ping pong ball  is a much larger ratio than that of hevi and lead.  Again, I understand there is a difference between the two,  I just don't think, energy wise, it is as big as it is being made out to be.  I would like to see real calculations.  I have put lead sixes through a turkey breast at 30 to 35 yards also.  Honestly the only bird I have ever shot more than once, was with Remington heavy loads.  I swore I would never shoot them again until my brother showed me patterns from some 7's this year.  This is where they shine.  Patterning.  Just don't get too hyped up about the energy.

[HogBiologist]

Ok i admit the comparrison is just an exageration.  But I have done patterning and physics equations on the HTL shot since they came out.  ANd sooooo many others on here hve done penetration tests on everything from wet phone books to heavy gauge metal sheeting.  the HTL shot always out performs the lead, even the larger shot sizes.

[jfair]

Ok i admit the comparrison is just an exageration.  But I have done patterning and physics equations on the HTL shot since they came out.  ANd sooooo many others on here hve done penetration tests on everything from wet phone books to heavy gauge metal sheeting.  the HTL shot always out performs the lead, even the larger shot sizes.

OK.  You just gave me a whole bunch of summer projects.  Sounds expensive.  Make no mistakes,  I will be shooting the hevi's when we open up in another week in PA.  Gook luck to you, and thanks for the discussion.

[jfair]

Just got a copy of the 2011 Turkey and turkey hunting equipment guide.  Article called "Feeding Gobbler Guns" pg 48.  The author started both hevi an lead out at 1300 fps.  May give a good round about number for how speed falls off at yardage. I don't know what the units of penetration are, he does not mention it.

No. 4 Pellet Performance

Shot type          Yards          Velocity (fps)         Energy (ft. lbs.)              Penetration

Hevi-Shot            20               1,023                    8.13                               3.63
                         40                  799                    4.95                               2.64
                         60                  647                    3.25                               1.95

Lead                    20               1,001                    7.16                               3.26
                          40                  770                    4.25                               2.33
                          60                  616                    2.72                               1.70

The author also says that Federal's Heavyweight is 15 g/cc.  Is this true?

[jfair]

The author also says that Federal's Heavyweight is 15 g/cc.  Is this true?
[/quote]
Those numbers are right in line with what the KPY Ballistic Program predicts, and yes, Fed HW is 14.5-15 gm/cc, which gives it a huge energy and penetration advantage over lead or HS.
[/quote]

Yes, big difference.  Surprised more are not shooting this.

[HogBiologist]

more people are not shooting Fed HW because of the Flight Control Wad.  That thing is very picky.  Besides, when HS can give the numbers it does and the penetration out past where you pattern falls apart, why shoot the FC wad.

[stinkpickle]

more people are not shooting Fed HW because of the Flight Control Wad.  That thing is very picky.  Besides, when HS can give the numbers it does and the penetration out past where you pattern falls apart, why shoot the FC wad.

Agreed!  If they made it available WITHOUT the flight control wad and bumped up the payloads to 2oz for 3"s and/or 2 1/4oz for 3 1/2"s, I'd probably use them.

[jfair]

more people are not shooting Fed HW because of the Flight Control Wad.  That thing is very picky.  Besides, when HS can give the numbers it does and the penetration out past where you pattern falls apart, why shoot the FC wad.

Agreed!  If they made it available WITHOUT the flight control wad and bumped up the payloads to 2oz for 3"s and/or 2 1/4oz for 3 1/2"s, I'd probably use them.

I liked the flight control wads for lead.  Maybe not so good for heavyshot?  I see the heavy Federals are 1300 fps.  Do they cut down on the pellet load to be able to put more powder in?  Is it a capacity restraint?   Could they make a 3.5" with 2.25 ounces of load that still shoots 1300 fps.?  If so, then it has to be a cost thing.

[Gobble!]

If federal lost the FC wad and bumped up the payload to 2.25oz environmetal would probably go out of business.