TSS 9's effectiveness ?

[crow]

You must be an Engineer, quantum physicist or mathematician with your vast knowledge of scientific diversities and analogies. I am just a poor, dumb hillbilly who wants to try to kill a turkey.

Engineer or physicist? Now a days even a Horseshoer has to know the basics of  (KE=1/2 mass X velocity squared)

Thanks to the internet, customers are more educated, now each hoof has to hit the ground with the exact same amount of (kilotons of energy)
The old "Clippity Klopp" you used to hear when a horse went down the road is unacceptable.
Now it's "Clippity Clippity" all 4 equal mass and density, not hard to do if you apply the E=MC^2 formula

[owlhoot]

You must be an Engineer, quantum physicist or mathematician with your vast knowledge of scientific diversities and analogies. I am just a poor, dumb hillbilly who wants to try to kill a turkey.

Yeah, but he never mentioned the Higgs boson.  Sheesh...

Dang I must have have drank to much MOUNTAIN DEW !

[dublelung]

The aerodynamics of both balls are so similar that wind resistance will have very little effect on which one retains its velocity better. There is a term in the scientific principle they call "significant difference". If a factor or conclusion is below a certain threshold it is not even considered in the equation.

A baseball weighs 5 ounces. A basketball weighs 22 ounces.

With nearly 4.5 times the mass of its counterpart, yet launched at the same velocity, the basketball isn't just going to flop to the ground.

The initial momentum for the baseball is 450 Oz*m/hr
The initial momentum for the B-ball is     1980 Oz*m/hr

The initial kinetic energy of the baseball is  113.29 Joules
The initial kinetic energy of the B-ball is     501.72 Joules.



Everyone compares #9 TSS to #5 Lead.
A single pellet of #9 TSS weighs     1/362th of an ounce
A single pellet of #5 Lead weighs    1/173rd of an ounce

So the Lead #5 pellet weighs about 2x what the TSS #9 pellet weighs.

Comparing Lead #2 to TSS #9 (4.5X mass) is closer to basketballs to baseballs, but it is still a very poor analogy and quiet misleading.
Compare a major league baseball to a fast pitch softball...........then you are getting a little closer to reality.

That guy!

[sasquatch1]

Guess it's settled. Everything made after lead shot, such as heavi shot, HW, and tss are all gimmicks and making us go backwards in tech.


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[hobbes]

I'm not the best at explaining energy and how it relates to penetration.  I mix some of the terms that really arent interchangeable, and may have even done it here (hopefully not). I know it's been done multiple times in the last few pages.

This isn't an attempt to persuade the use of Tungsten Super Shot.  I've just recently purchased some and have previously stayed on the side of "dead is dead" and kept using my old faithful lead.  However, this is a very small/ simple look at why smaller TSS shot out performs larger Lead (Pb) shot.  There is a lot more to this than what I've done, but it should give you some idea of why it works this way.  I'm not beyond needing correction, so have at it.

I've seen charts that show that 18 g/cc tungsten #9 shot out penetrates 11.3g/cc lead #6 shot in ballistic gel.  However, the tiny #9 TSS obviously weighs less than #6 lead (360/ounce vs. 221/ounce).  So why do the lighter weight #9's out penetrate the heavier #6's?  Here are few things to consider.  (If you are concerned with significant figures you may want to look away.)

Lets verify the shot counts:

#9 shot is 2.03 mm diameter, giving a volume of 4.38 mm3 or .00438 cm3

#6 shot is 2.79 mm diameter, giving a volume of 11.37 mm3 or .01137 cm3

Using Volume and Density:

A TSS #9 (18 g/cm3) weighs .07884 grams = .00278 ounces = 1.2167 grains

A Pb #6 (11.3 g/cm3) weighs .12848 grams = .00453 ounces = 1.9827 grains

Number of shot per ounce:

TSS #9 -  1/ .00278 oz = 361/oz

Pb #6 – 1/ .00453 oz = 221/oz

There are a number of things that will affect penetration...........mass, velocity, cross sectional area, surface area, hardness.  The simplest way to determine penetration is to do like most have done and just shoot ballistic gel and measure the results.  There is nothing better than real world results, but the numbers can sometimes clear up some of why that just happened.

Kinetic Energy gets thrown around a lot so let's look at that:

KE = Mass x Velocity squared divided by a Constant.   Mass is in grains, Velocity in fps, and K is 450,435, and KE is in foot pounds

Instead of punching in all the numbers, I used Google, so the numbers could vary a little.

KE of #9 TSS @ 1200 fps = 3.8882 ft lbs

KE of #6 Pb @ 1200 fps = 6.3359 ft lbs

Now consider cross sectional area.

The cross sectional area of a # 9 = 3.24 mm2

The cross sectional area of a #6 = 6.11 mm2

#9 TSS
3.8882/3.24 = 1.20 ftlbs/mm2

#6 Pb
6.3359/6.11 = 1.04 ftlbs/mm2

So we can already see that a TSS #9 has more energy per mm2 than a Pb #6, both traveling at the same velocity.

Someone said before that the difference in wind resistence would be negligible.  I wouldn't say that considering that the cross sectional area of #6 is 89% larger.

Same for the surface area:

The surface area of a #9 shot = 12.95 mm2

The surface area of a #6 shot = 24.45 mm2

Let's assume that the drag forces of air and the object that we are shooting (penetrating) only acts on the front half of the sphere:

#9 shot = 6.475 mm2

#6 shot = 12.225 mm2

So without looking at any other numbers we can see that the TSS #9 has 15% more energy per unit of area than the Pb #6 (1.2 ftlbs/mm2 vs. 1.04 ftlbs/mm2).  We can also see that the Pb #6 has almost 90% more drag forces acting against it than the TSS #9.  More energy and less drag force will yield more penetration.

Another factor that I'm not even capable of calculating is how deformation or shape of the shot affects penetration.  It's my understanding that TSS is "more spherical".  That would increase penetration.  It is also harder, so it would not deform like lead.  Deformation sucks up energy that is used for penetration, so the harder shot would not lose penetration capability due to deformation.

Add all of that to 360 TSS #9's  vs. 221 Pb #6's and there is a clear winner.  However, I agree with many..............dead is dead, so if your lead is getting it done and you don't want to spend the extra cash.

[drenalinld]

Solid information, Hobbes. The diameter and surface area comparisons are key when looking at velocity retention or lack of. The lead will be much slower at killing ranges because of reasons you point out. As you said, shoot what you like and be happy.


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[guesswho]

I pull trigger and gun goes bang.  After that Its over my head.   

[dirt road ninja]

This thread has me feeling bad about the money my parents spent on my education.

[davisd9]

I will stand by my first post. It kills birds.


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[Yoder409]

I pull trigger and gun goes bang.  After that Its over my head.

And if you aimed steady, it's all over old Tom's head, too.

[Cut N Run]

Well Doggies, that's some mighty fine cypherin' there Mr. Hobbes. It makes good sense once it gets all explained. Thank you for that.

So, Hevi shot formulates to somewhere in the middle of those two.  That works for me. I haven't had a gobbler survive the Hevi smackdown I laid on them yet.  Considering that I have about 25+ year's worth of Hevi shot still to spend, I'll just leave the TSS to those who use it.  You're welcome.

Jim

[hobbes]

I didn't think to include Hevi in there, but I'd keep shooting it to if I had that much of it.

If I didn't screw something up:


#6 Hevi (12 g/cc and 209/ounce)
1.09 ftlb/mm2
Surface are creating drag = 12.225 mm2

#7 Fed. Heavyweight (15 g/cc and 219/ounce)
1.26 ftlb/mm2
Surface area creating drag = 10.135 mm2

[Johnnemily]

If a guys gonna use a 12 gauge not a whole lot advantage over a heavy load of number 5 or 6 shot

[hobbes]

If a guys gonna use a 12 gauge not a whole lot advantage over a heavy load of number 5 or 6 shot

Actually,  as I stated above.  A TSS 9 has 15% more energy per unit of cross sectional area, almost 90% less drag due to surface area, and 140 more pellets per ounce that have proven to pattern better than a #6 lead.  I'd say performance wise that's a whole lot better.  As far as dead turkeys inside 40 yards............no the results will be the same from a good lead load.............dead turkey.

[owlhoot]

I'm not the best at explaining energy and how it relates to penetration.  I mix some of the terms that really arent interchangeable, and may have even done it here (hopefully not). I know it's been done multiple times in the last few pages.

This isn't an attempt to persuade the use of Tungsten Super Shot.  I've just recently purchased some and have previously stayed on the side of "dead is dead" and kept using my old faithful lead.  However, this is a very small/ simple look at why smaller TSS shot out performs larger Lead (Pb) shot.  There is a lot more to this than what I've done, but it should give you some idea of why it works this way.  I'm not beyond needing correction, so have at it.

I've seen charts that show that 18 g/cc tungsten #9 shot out penetrates 11.3g/cc lead #6 shot in ballistic gel.  However, the tiny #9 TSS obviously weighs less than #6 lead (360/ounce vs. 221/ounce).  So why do the lighter weight #9's out penetrate the heavier #6's?  Here are few things to consider.  (If you are concerned with significant figures you may want to look away.)

Lets verify the shot counts:

#9 shot is 2.03 mm diameter, giving a volume of 4.38 mm3 or .00438 cm3

#6 shot is 2.79 mm diameter, giving a volume of 11.37 mm3 or .01137 cm3

Using Volume and Density:

A TSS #9 (18 g/cm3) weighs .07884 grams = .00278 ounces = 1.2167 grains

A Pb #6 (11.3 g/cm3) weighs .12848 grams = .00453 ounces = 1.9827 grains

Number of shot per ounce:

TSS #9 -  1/ .00278 oz = 361/oz

Pb #6 – 1/ .00453 oz = 221/oz

There are a number of things that will affect penetration...........mass, velocity, cross sectional area, surface area, hardness.  The simplest way to determine penetration is to do like most have done and just shoot ballistic gel and measure the results.  There is nothing better than real world results, but the numbers can sometimes clear up some of why that just happened.

Kinetic Energy gets thrown around a lot so let's look at that:

KE = Mass x Velocity squared divided by a Constant.   Mass is in grains, Velocity in fps, and K is 450,435, and KE is in foot pounds

Instead of punching in all the numbers, I used Google, so the numbers could vary a little.

KE of #9 TSS @ 1200 fps = 3.8882 ft lbs

KE of #6 Pb @ 1200 fps = 6.3359 ft lbs

Now consider cross sectional area.

The cross sectional area of a # 9 = 3.24 mm2

The cross sectional area of a #6 = 6.11 mm2

#9 TSS
3.8882/3.24 = 1.20 ftlbs/mm2

#6 Pb
6.3359/6.11 = 1.04 ftlbs/mm2

So we can already see that a TSS #9 has more energy per mm2 than a Pb #6, both traveling at the same velocity.

Someone said before that the difference in wind resistence would be negligible.  I wouldn't say that considering that the cross sectional area of #6 is 89% larger.

Same for the surface area:

The surface area of a #9 shot = 12.95 mm2

The surface area of a #6 shot = 24.45 mm2

Let's assume that the drag forces of air and the object that we are shooting (penetrating) only acts on the front half of the sphere:

#9 shot = 6.475 mm2

#6 shot = 12.225 mm2

So without looking at any other numbers we can see that the TSS #9 has 15% more energy per unit of area than the Pb #6 (1.2 ftlbs/mm2 vs. 1.04 ftlbs/mm2).  We can also see that the Pb #6 has almost 90% more drag forces acting against it than the TSS #9.  More energy and less drag force will yield more penetration.

Another factor that I'm not even capable of calculating is how deformation or shape of the shot affects penetration.  It's my understanding that TSS is "more spherical".  That would increase penetration.  It is also harder, so it would not deform like lead.  Deformation sucks up energy that is used for penetration, so the harder shot would not lose penetration capability due to deformation.

Add all of that to 360 TSS #9's  vs. 221 Pb #6's and there is a clear winner.  However, I agree with many..............dead is dead, so if your lead is getting it done and you don't want to spend the extra cash.

Great info from this and other posts . Should be excellent turkey killing stuff, good retained velocity and penetration at turkey hunting ranges along with high pellet counts for good patterns . 9 shot in TSS should be just the ticket .