Long beards and open chokes

[reflexl]

I have 3 3.5" guns. A 835 with a .676 Stardot,  870 with a Undertaker .665 and a BPS with a .665 Indian creek. The 835 is shooting the most pellets I have ever seen from any gun in 10" at 40 yards. I have been trying to sort out the unreal numbers. I may have solved it. The .676 choke may be open enough to keep from completely shattering the resin. The partially cracked wad of shot and resin breaks down on the way instead of at the end of the barrel. When the barrel is super cleaned there are holes in the pattern. Once 2 or 3 shots have been fired the pattern even out and loose a few pellets from the overall count. From the clean barrel the are tons of twin and triple;let impacts but once dirty they even out. I have to believe that the drag from the dirty barrel is starting the break down process earlier resulting in better consistent patterns.

[BowBendr]

Odd that you posted this, I was just getting ready to shoot you a pm to see if you have fiddled with it anymore. I'm shooting a 24" 835 with an original stardot too and I've noticed the same things. When I try to loosen the LB's up a tad with a more open choke the double and triple strikes go way up and the patterns start getting splotchy. When I choke it tighter than .675ish, shoot a more fouled barrel or a choke with more aggressive porting the multi-strikes start to diminish, but the pattern is just way too tight, even though the pattern evens up a bit in density. For me the odd part is that the #4's don't seem to be affected as much by it, I figured the bigger shot fought for its space in the barrel to a higher degree, resulting in a better fractured resin column ?

My question for you was going to be: have you tried choking the crap out of it (under .670) and intentionally try to blow the pattern, which in turn may fracture the resin even more thoroughly ? It goes against logical thinking but you never know.....

About a year ago there was a thread where Clark Bush eluded to this possibly being an answer, and that patterns could actually be opened up with over choking instead of going to a more open choke, but I can't locate that thread. Not sure if he experimented with it any further.

[Gumby]

Y'all are both on to something. That resin needs to be broken as the shot leaves the barrel in order to give a good even hunting pattern. There are a few chokes around where the internal design and geometry actually aid in breaking the resin as the shot leaves the barrel. I'm sure Clark could expound on this as I am no expert. For me, they are just too tight and I consider them a poor hunting pattern in my set-up.

[Longshanks]

   Kicks .655/ Rem 870 21" bbl is shooting more consistent than any other set up I have with Win LB 3" 6's. Definitely super tight but turning well over 200 every shot. Backing that off 50-60 shot for a better hunting pattern puts me right back to shooting XX 3/2/6's. No use for Win LB.

[Buford]

I have seen in some of my 20 gauge federal hw 7 patterns where two or three pellets stick together and have found some shot cups with three or four pellets stuck inside after being shot. I think it's something other than the resin in longbeards because it happens with other brand shells. Maybe the the shot came into contact with other things such as dirt. A very fine coat of anything, maybe oil. Just something to think about.      Buford

[allaboutshooting]

About a year ago there was a thread where Clark Bush eluded to this possibly being an answer, and that patterns could actually be opened up with over choking instead of going to a more open choke, but I can't locate that thread. Not sure if he experimented with it any further.

Y'all are both on to something. That resin needs to be broken as the shot leaves the barrel in order to give a good even hunting pattern. There are a few chokes around where the internal design and geometry actually aid in breaking the resin as the shot leaves the barrel. I'm sure Clark could expound on this as I am no expert. For me, they are just too tight and I consider them a poor hunting pattern in my set-up.

Here's what I found from shooting the early WLB shells with #6 shot. Before going into that however, I'd like to inject that not all shot charges of WLB shells "behave" the same. For example, the resin slug is much softer on the larger shot sizes, particularly on #4 shot. It can be easily crushed between your thumb and forefinger. The #5 shot slugs to a lesser extent and the #6 loads need pliers to crush the resin slug.

We all know that the resin slug is designed to fracture upon upset. Many times, we have no real way of knowing if or when that happens because we can't see inside the chamber or the forcing cone area where this would take place at that time. We have however seen evidence of the resin slug not fracturing or not fracturing fully at times. When that happens, the patterns are exceptionally tight at all ranges.

So, if the resin slug does not fracture at upset and we want that slug to fracture, the secondary source of fracturing can be the interior of the choke tube. One way to do that, is to use a choke tube that is somewhat tighter than we might ordinarily use. That pretty much goes against what we've been told over the years. "If you want a tighter pattern, shoot a tighter choke and if you want a more open pattern, shoot a more open choke."

In this case, you many need to shoot a tighter choke to get a more open pattern. Now, we also go back to the design of the choke and its "internal geometry". It's not all about the exit diameter.

There is another complicating factor. I referenced the "early" WLB shells and most of my work on this subject was done with them. I cut open shells with #4, #5, and #6 shot and found the differences in the resin slugs that I discussed. We shot a lot of those early WLB shells at still target shoots, then went to more current production and then last year, we shot the early production shells again on the shooting circuit and at the World Championship. They shot very tight patterns, as evidenced by the records that were broken.

Along the way, several of us cut open the "current production shells" and it appeared that the resin slug with the #6 shot was about as easily crushed in our fingers as were the #4 and #5 shot resin slugs. I suspect that the formula was changed at some point to make the resin fracture more easily and consistently.

That says a couple of things to me. The first is that this shell was designed to be a "long range" shell and that is how it performs. At ranges under 35-40 yards, it throws some very tight patterns. It also says that you may want to experiment with some tighter chokes to see if your particular gun will shoot more open patterns at closer ranges. Some will and some won't.

It comes down to each of us knowing our guns.

Thanks,
Clark

[BowBendr]

Thank you for your valued input Clark. Your still shooting career and product evaluations have tremendously helped all of us as hunters, this is another great example.

[reflexl]

Thanks Clark. You also noticed the difference in the resin. When the LB first came out I bought a bunch of them because I have a bunch of guns to feed. I noticed on the last batch bought at Wal-mart in Tullohoma TN 2 years later that:

1. The patterns opened up
2. The twin and triple strikes were greatly diminished.

Here is the pattern that started the whole thing:


I had several fellers that didn't believe it was shot at 40 yards.

Here is one of that same lot of shells shot in my 870 with a .665 choke. This too me though not as impressive is a better hunting pattern. Once my 835 is dirty it shoots a lot like this. I have killed 5 birds with the long beards from 21 to 42 yards with no complants.

[reflexl]

This is what I would consider a decapitation. This was from the barrel freshly deep cleaned.

[allaboutshooting]

Thank you for your valued input Clark. Your still shooting career and product evaluations have tremendously helped all of us as hunters, this is another great example.

I appreciate the kind words.
Thanks,
Clark

[allaboutshooting]

Thanks Clark. You also noticed the difference in the resin. When the LB first came out I bought a bunch of them because I have a bunch of guns to feed. I noticed on the last batch bought at Wal-mart in Tullohoma TN 2 years later that:

1. The patterns opened up
2. The twin and triple strikes were greatly diminished.

You're welcome. Those are some impressive patterns.

Thanks,
Clark

[reflexl]

Too impressive. As many pellets as it was getting in the 10" I wasn't happy with the holes in the pattern. I guess the easiest solution is to go out and shoot about 10 doves loads before hunting. I know that sounds funny but sometimes its the weird that works. have you ever seen that many double and triple strikes in 10"?

[BowBendr]

Those high numbered but clumpy patterns will drive you mad. I've not cleaned my 835 in over a year now. I bore-snake it one pass about every 20 shots. Helps even up the spread and density more than messing with the chokes. I want to like the LB's, I want more than the old HV's but not the full bore tight like we see now. The dirty barrel helps.