Choke shell questions

[Rick Howard]

I picked up a 870 super mag today.  I'm planning for some patterning sessions.  I'm curious to folks results with Carlson flush mout extra full chokes and long beard shells.  I'd like to feel comfortable at 40 yards but not too tight at 20.  From what I've read folks are seeing very tight patterns from long beards when using tight constrictions.  This is what got me looking at the flush mount .690. 

Anyone have a recommendation of where to start here?  I bought some LB 5's and 6's today.  But held off on buying any chokes. 

Considering a carlsons flush mount x full and a carlsons .660 none ported choke.  I have a truly gsx but I think that's going back before I shoot it. 

I know nothing is for certain and the best way to find out is to shoot.  With all the options available I'm just looking for a starting point. 

[allaboutshooting]

I picked up a 870 super mag today.  I'm planning for some patterning sessions.  I'm curious to folks results with Carlson flush mout extra full chokes and long beard shells.  I'd like to feel comfortable at 40 yards but not too tight at 20.  From what I've read folks are seeing very tight patterns from long beards when using tight constrictions.  This is what got me looking at the flush mount .690. 

Anyone have a recommendation of where to start here?  I bought some LB 5's and 6's today.  But held off on buying any chokes. 

Considering a carlsons flush mount x full and a carlsons .660 none ported choke.  I have a truly gsx but I think that's going back before I shoot it. 

I know nothing is for certain and the best way to find out is to shoot.  With all the options available I'm just looking for a starting point.

I know nothing is for certain and the best way to find out is to shoot.

There is no substitute for range time, just as you've said. I've spent a lot of time at the range with WLB shells. I've used a variety of chokes with them, through a number of different shotguns and in a lot of different temperatures and conditions. That includes hunting and still target competition venues. In addition, many of my readers have reported results to me, mainly in range and of course hunting situations.

The resin in that shell is supposed to fracture and turn into buffer upon upset, when the gun is fired. I'm sure that happens perfectly at times (there's really no way to tell) sometimes it happens partially and sometimes, seemingly not at all.

The choke serves as the "secondary" source of fracturing the resin slug that encases the shot. If the slug is not fractured upon upset, it may make its way down the bore intact or nearly intact and then it's up to the force of the air it encounters to cause it to fracture and the shot to spread. That is likely the source of those very tight patterns that we see at very close ranges.

If you're shooting a very open choke that does not aid in fracturing the slug, should that be necessary, you may in fact have a tighter pattern that you would if the choke had more constriction or in some way helped to fracture the slug.

Our thinking then becomes quite different than that which we've used for years about how to make a pattern tighter or in this case make one more open.

Lastly, we should remember that the WLB XR shells were developed for "long range" and just may not deliver the kinds of close range patterns that some other shells deliver.

To find out how they work with that choke in your gun, putting 3-4 down range should give you an answer.

Thanks,
Clark

[Longshanks]

Congrats on the new gun. I have been through a number of chokes and tried the majority of HTL and Lead shells through my 870SM with a 26" bbl. I could not seem to find the balance you were describing the Win LB shells. I ended up shooting Win XX 3/2/6's to find those types of patterns. Shooting 140's-160's in a 10 @ 40 with Ventilator .655 and Kicks .655. Also able to shoot the double beads on my gun since the patterns weren't overly tight and POA/ POI stayed dead on. Good luck at the range as that will tell you what shell/ choke your gun likes. Great information from Clark as he knows more about the LB shells than anyone I know.

[Rick Howard]

Thank you for the replies. Great info. I should have done more research on the long bread shells before buying.  Oh well.  It makes sense now about the xr.  I will try them through the .660 Carlson and go from there.

[allaboutshooting]

Thank you for the replies. Great info. I should have done more research on the long bread shells before buying.  Oh well.  It makes sense now about the xr.  I will try them through the .660 Carlson and go from there.

One thing that keeps the sport of turkey hunting and the "other" sport of turkey gun patterning interesting, is the effect that chokes have on shotshells. It's really the extension of the sport and it allows us to continue to shoot throughout the year, looking for the best patterns we can find.

Trying to find the combination of gun, choke and shell that patterns best is just plain fun! We also learn so much about the combinations that we're using and about our shooting ability. We gain confidence in what we're using and in ourselves by spending time at the range with our guns. 

Forums like OG also allow us to share information in a friendly manner. We can all learn from each other and be better shooters and hunters for it.

Have fun with that new gun. We'll enjoy hearing what you find works best.

Thanks,
Clark

[owlhoot]

I picked up a 870 super mag today.  I'm planning for some patterning sessions.  I'm curious to folks results with Carlson flush mout extra full chokes and long beard shells.  I'd like to feel comfortable at 40 yards but not too tight at 20.  From what I've read folks are seeing very tight patterns from long beards when using tight constrictions.  This is what got me looking at the flush mount .690. 

Anyone have a recommendation of where to start here?  I bought some LB 5's and 6's today.  But held off on buying any chokes. 

Considering a carlsons flush mount x full and a carlsons .660 none ported choke.  I have a truly gsx but I think that's going back before I shoot it. 

I know nothing is for certain and the best way to find out is to shoot.  With all the options available I'm just looking for a starting point.

I know nothing is for certain and the best way to find out is to shoot.

There is no substitute for range time, just as you've said. I've spent a lot of time at the range with WLB shells. I've used a variety of chokes with them, through a number of different shotguns and in a lot of different temperatures and conditions. That includes hunting and still target competition venues. In addition, many of my readers have reported results to me, mainly in range and of course hunting situations.

The resin in that shell is supposed to fracture and turn into buffer upon upset, when the gun is fired. I'm sure that happens perfectly at times (there's really no way to tell) sometimes it happens partially and sometimes, seemingly not at all.

The choke serves as the "secondary" source of fracturing the resin slug that encases the shot. If the slug is not fractured upon upset, it may make its way down the bore intact or nearly intact and then it's up to the force of the air it encounters to cause it to fracture and the shot to spread. That is likely the source of those very tight patterns that we see at very close ranges.

If you're shooting a very open choke that does not aid in fracturing the slug, should that be necessary, you may in fact have a tighter pattern that you would if the choke had more constriction or in some way helped to fracture the slug.

Our thinking then becomes quite different than that which we've used for years about how to make a pattern tighter or in this case make one more open.

Lastly, we should remember that the WLB XR shells were developed for "long range" and just may not deliver the kinds of close range patterns that some other shells deliver.

To find out how they work with that choke in your gun, putting 3-4 down range should give you an answer.










Thanks,
Clark

would there be any particular choke design that helps with this ? Like ported or internal brakes etc. 

[Rick Howard]

I bought some win xx 3" 2oz #5 today.  I'm thinking this will be a better starting point  over the long beard. 

Eventually I think my goal is to pick up some more Carlson non ported chokes with a little less constriction and try some of the federal loads (3rd degree and HW 7).  I like the concept of the 3rd degree and I'm interested in the hw7.

Anyone know if the Carlson turkey chokes are wad strikers?

[Longshanks]

I picked up a 870 super mag today.  I'm planning for some patterning sessions.  I'm curious to folks results with Carlson flush mout extra full chokes and long beard shells.  I'd like to feel comfortable at 40 yards but not too tight at 20.  From what I've read folks are seeing very tight patterns from long beards when using tight constrictions.  This is what got me looking at the flush mount .690. 

Anyone have a recommendation of where to start here?  I bought some LB 5's and 6's today.  But held off on buying any chokes. 

Considering a carlsons flush mount x full and a carlsons .660 none ported choke.  I have a truly gsx but I think that's going back before I shoot it. 

I know nothing is for certain and the best way to find out is to shoot.  With all the options available I'm just looking for a starting point.

I know nothing is for certain and the best way to find out is to shoot.

There is no substitute for range time, just as you've said. I've spent a lot of time at the range with WLB shells. I've used a variety of chokes with them, through a number of different shotguns and in a lot of different temperatures and conditions. That includes hunting and still target competition venues. In addition, many of my readers have reported results to me, mainly in range and of course hunting situations.

The resin in that shell is supposed to fracture and turn into buffer upon upset, when the gun is fired. I'm sure that happens perfectly at times (there's really no way to tell) sometimes it happens partially and sometimes, seemingly not at all.

The choke serves as the "secondary" source of fracturing the resin slug that encases the shot. If the slug is not fractured upon upset, it may make its way down the bore intact or nearly intact and then it's up to the force of the air it encounters to cause it to fracture and the shot to spread. That is likely the source of those very tight patterns that we see at very close ranges.

If you're shooting a very open choke that does not aid in fracturing the slug, should that be necessary, you may in fact have a tighter pattern that you would if the choke had more constriction or in some way helped to fracture the slug.

Our thinking then becomes quite different than that which we've used for years about how to make a pattern tighter or in this case make one more open.

Lastly, we should remember that the WLB XR shells were developed for "long range" and just may not deliver the kinds of close range patterns that some other shells deliver.

To find out how they work with that choke in your gun, putting 3-4 down range should give you an answer.










Thanks,
Clark

would there be any particular choke design that helps with this ? Like ported or internal brakes etc.

This must have something to do with why the Kicks .655 and .660 shoot so well with the Win LB's.

[Longshanks]

I bought some win xx 3" 2oz #5 today.  I'm thinking this will be a better starting point  over the long beard. 

Eventually I think my goal is to pick up some more Carlson non ported chokes with a little less constriction and try some of the federal loads (3rd degree and HW 7).  I like the concept of the 3rd degree and I'm interested in the hw7.

Anyone know if the Carlson turkey chokes are wad strikers?

    The Kicks .660 will normally sing with those Win XX 3/2/5's. Kicks .655 will shoot all the Win standard loads well in 6's and some setups shoot well with 5's also. Just a thought.
    Companies have become very specialized and you can buy chokes specifically for the HW 7's or Longbeards. Tru-lock and Carlsons have chokes specifically for those shells. I haven't shot any patterns with the 3rd degree that I couldn't produce with standard lead loads. Actually I shot patterns that were more even and had 40+ more pellets than the 3rd Degree with Win XX 3/2/6's.

[BINK McCARTY]

I bought some win xx 3" 2oz #5 today.  I'm thinking this will be a better starting point  over the long beard. 

Eventually I think my goal is to pick up some more Carlson non ported chokes with a little less constriction and try some of the federal loads (3rd degree and HW 7).  I like the concept of the 3rd degree and I'm interested in the hw7.

Anyone know if the Carlson turkey chokes are wad strikers?

    The Kicks .660 will normally sing with those Win XX 3/2/5's. Kicks .655 will shoot all the Win standard loads well in 6's and some setups shoot well with 5's also. Just a thought.
    Companies have become very specialized and you can buy chokes specifically for the HW 7's or Longbeards. Tru-lock and Carlsons have chokes specifically for those shells. I haven't shot any patterns with the 3rd degree that I couldn't produce with standard lead loads. Actually I shot patterns that were more even and had 40+ more pellets than the 3rd Degree with Win XX 3/2/6's.

I haven't heard of too awful many people that have gotten acceptable results with the 3rd Degree....Federal Heavyweight #7s....different story....

[Rick Howard]

Not sure I solved this ridile yet but I am armed with new information after some shooting today. 

Gun is the 870 Super Mag 26" barrel
Choke is the carlson non ported .660 turkey choke
Shells were 3" Winchester Double X 2oz. #5, 3" Win Long Beard XR 1 3/4oz #5 and #6.

At 40 paces the Win Double x 2oz 5's are a bit sparse but everything inside that looks good.  POI/POA lined up well and patterns were even. 

The LB 5's and 6's were nice at 20-40 but inside 20 they did what was expected.  At 15 yards with the 5's the pattern was about 8" with a 1x2 hole in the middle lol.  The 6's patterened more even than the 5's.  The 5's were tighter.  The 6's POI was a little high at 20 and even higher at 40.  I think some user error may have aided the hieght at 40 but they were will high.  The POI of the 5's were dead on at 20 but low and right at 40.

Some more shooting will be required to better know each combo.  The choice at the moment is which of these 3 to hunt with.  Obviously we can never guarantee where a bird will approach from or if it will sneak in and into a unexpected location.  However, I can make a good guess as the the most likely scenario and choose my solution accordingly.  I am leaning towards the lb 6's.  I will have to shoot birds before they get to close if I can. Also I am considering use the lb's for field hunting and double x for timber.  We just stroked the first half of our season and do not want to waste any more mornings blasting away precious time.

Anyway I just wanted to update you all and thank you again for the advice.     

[allaboutshooting]

It's a difficult adjustment to make when we start thinking about using tighter chokes to open up patterns. That becomes even more of a challenge when we remember that it's not all about the exit diameter but more about the "Internal geometry" of the choke that influences the pattern, even when we're talking about WLB shells with the resin encapsulated shot.

Shot size and the weight of the charge may also influence the patterns, in what may not be a readily apparent manner. If we look at 3" shells with 1 3/4 oz of shot, my observations, from dissecting a number of shells, shows that the resin capsule on #6 shot is much harder than it is with #5 or #4 shot. I have yet to dissect a shell with #6 shot in which the resin is fractured or can be easily fractured with finger pressure. I do find that to be the case with both #5 and #4 shot.

Looking at 3" shells with 1 7/8 oz of shot, I occasionally find the resin capsule on #6 shot to be partially fractured and/or easily fractured with finger pressure. I also find that to be the case with both #5 and #4 shot.

The 3" shells with 1 3/4 oz of shot and the 3" shells with 1 7/8 oz of shot differ not just in weight of the shot charge and muzzle velocity but in these other ways. I do not know if that is intentional on the part of the loader or just a consequence of the shot size and/or the weight of the shot charge.

Lastly, I've found that every new shotshell presents us with challenges until we learn how it reacts to different chokes. Eventually, with enough rounds down range, we can figure out what works with each of them.

Thanks,
Clark

[owlhoot]

Wow that is some serious study on those shells.
Thanks for doing that Clark.

[Rick Howard]

Thank you Clark.  I really wanted to get the 1 7/8 oz long beards but they were not available.  It was my suspicion that they might deliver more open patterns close but have enough pellets to keep a dense pattern at 40 yards.  My next try will be with LB 1 7/8 #6 as from what I've seen and I think your confirming those might be the ticket.  I just have to find some locally.  Pickens are pretty slim at the moment. 

[allaboutshooting]

 

Wow that is some serious study on those shells.
Thanks for doing that Clark.

You''re welcome. It's been fun.

Thanks,
Clark