Unethical or Not 2

[hobbes]

sswv,
Unless I missed something, I think Gobblenut was just saying that the chance of it happening was very slim and no way your buddy could have forseen it.  I dont think he was implying that it didn't happen the way you said.

As far as the original author's thread goes.  I dont agree with the retaliation responses, not even scaring the bird off.  Wrong or not, escalating any situation when all parties have guns is a bad plan.  Any plan to get back at someone by damaging property the next time you see it (suggested in previous ethics post) is illegal and should land you in court.  As far as scaring the bird, neither person kills the bird and you still have to deal with this guy next time.  At least this way he shouldn't be back next time.

I've lost my temper on a number of occasions,  but thankfully not while turkey hunting.   I've been mad a time or two for sure, but cool heads will work out much better for all parties.
On one occasion with my 10yr old son we had two guys bust a tom that I'd been working for about 45 minutes since daylight.  As they approached our set up talking loudly and cussing, I realized they were discussing how they had just spooked the bird and I realized why he had quit gobbling.  I heard one say " I dont know what the ....... we could have done different".  I went white hot in a flash and was tempted to start my own cussing match.  However, I had a 10 yr old with me that I didn't need to set that example for and there were three grown men counting me with shotguns.
I'm sure I was still red in the face when they got close and I alerted them to our position before standing.  I did confront them somewhat but tried to not go overboard.  Of course their response was that they heard me calling but hey it's public land.  I settled down and talked with them for a few moments and it was clear they were at least somewhat experienced waterfowlers but relatively new to turkeys ( typical in CO). 

The point is we all walked away.  I'm sure when I left they exchanged a smirk or more and I did the same also lecturing my son on how they were legally ok but ethically wrong once they stated they knew I was there but stalked the bird anyway,  but no one ended up in a brawl and no one ended up shot.

It's a turkey.......if you're incapable of keeping a cool head, you shouldn't hunt high pressured public land.  I dont Want to use too broad of a brush here so I'm referring to physical retalliation in my next statement.   I've found that some of the folks that are willing to retaliate in an illegal or dangerous manner are just as likely to have done the original act that started the whole thing.......they just don't like wearing the shoe.

[Bill Cooksey]

To in any way move in on a bird you know someone else is working is ethically wrong, and it's obviously also dangerous. That said, I can understand it happening by accident, and that's especially true with inexperienced turkey hunters. For safety reasons, there's a point where the person on the ethically right side of the situation should give up the bird and move on, but that's tough for any of us to do.

My oldest son's last turkey (he was killed in a car accident the next summer) came in such a situation. It was on private land. We were running late, and the bird was on the ground right on the property line when we started moving in close. About that time I heard yelping on the next property, and the bird fired off. Not 100% on it being a hen or hunter, I called. The bird ignored me, and the other caller yelped again. The bird gobbled, but it was obviously a hunter. I couldn't tell which side of the fence the bird was on, but told my son we were leaving to look for another bird because the other guy was on it first and it appeared he had the best opportunity. We hadn't walked far before it became obvious the gobbler was following us. We moved another hundred yards and then had to sit down quick in self defense. I purred, he gobbled and Sam killed him at twenty yards. Guess we were rewarded for trying to do the right thing.

I lost my temper on a trespasser once, and I'm still a bit embarrassed, but he deserved everything I gave him. Only had one other truly negative encounter. It was also on private ground (a hunting club), and it only lasted seconds. Still dark, but birds were hammering, and we were set up right when here comes a guy going by us. I whistled and he stopped a second before continuing. I whistled again; he stopped, looked at us and waved. Then, he continued on toward the birds. I lost it just a bit and loudly said "Hey-expletive deleted," and the dude went nuts. We had words, but he left, and we killed a bird about an hour later.

On public I just won't go near a spot if I think another hunter is there. Sometimes that means a parking spot farther along. Sometimes it means a totally different area. And, sometimes it means going home.

[yelpaholic]

Accidents happen on public land as well as private.  I mean turkey hunting is a secretive business...... But most of these occurances described are caused from a lack of respect.. Plain and simple.. just my 

[sswv]

hey hobbes.  I hope you're right but it sure read different to me.  anyway, it's all good on my end.

[GobbleNut]

hey hobbes.  I hope you're right but it sure read different to me.  anyway, it's all good on my end.

I guess this just goes to show how the written word can be misinterpreted and people get turned sideways due to misunderstanding.  Hobbes was absolutely correct in his assessment. 

My intent in my response was to state that your friend was not at all at fault for what happened and that the odds of something like that happening were astronomical.  By no means was I suggesting that he had made up the story to cover up a negligent act.  Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[GobbleNut]

   I dont agree with the retaliation responses, not even scaring the bird off.  Wrong or not, escalating any situation when all parties have guns is a bad plan.  Any plan to get back at someone by damaging property the next time you see it (suggested in previous ethics post) is illegal and should land you in court.  As far as scaring the bird, neither person kills the bird and you still have to deal with this guy next time.  At least this way he shouldn't be back next time.

I've lost my temper on a number of occasions,  but thankfully not while turkey hunting.   I've been mad a time or two for sure, but cool heads will work out much better for all parties.
On one occasion with my 10yr old son we had two guys bust a tom that I'd been working for about 45 minutes since daylight.  As they approached our set up talking loudly and cussing, I realized they were discussing how they had just spooked the bird and I realized why he had quit gobbling.  I heard one say " I dont know what the ....... we could have done different".  I went white hot in a flash and was tempted to start my own cussing match.  However, I had a 10 yr old with me that I didn't need to set that example for and there were three grown men counting me with shotguns.
I'm sure I was still red in the face when they got close and I alerted them to our position before standing.  I did confront them somewhat but tried to not go overboard.  Of course their response was that they heard me calling but hey it's public land.  I settled down and talked with them for a few moments and it was clear they were at least somewhat experienced waterfowlers but relatively new to turkeys ( typical in CO). 

The point is we all walked away.  I'm sure when I left they exchanged a smirk or more and I did the same also lecturing my son on how they were legally ok but ethically wrong once they stated they knew I was there but stalked the bird anyway,  but no one ended up in a brawl and no one ended up shot.

It's a turkey.......if you're incapable of keeping a cool head, you shouldn't hunt high pressured public land.  I dont Want to use too broad of a brush here so I'm referring to physical retalliation in my next statement.   I've found that some of the folks that are willing to retaliate in an illegal or dangerous manner are just as likely to have done the original act that started the whole thing.......they just don't like wearing the shoe.

I agree with almost all of the points you make here, Hobbes.  I guess I am just not quite as forgiving as you are about some things.  Your point about not having a physical confrontation with guns is right on,...as is your statement that damaging someone's property in retaliation is not proper either. 

In this specific situation, the guy that ended up shooting the bird did some things that were not only unethical, but highly disrespectful to his fellow hunter, as well.  If I am hunting somewhere and pull up to that spot and someone else is already there,...and that person is right there at his vehicle,...I will take the time to get out, talk to that individual, and find out exactly what their plans are.  If they are hunting close enough to where I was planning on going, I will make it clear to them that I am going to leave and go somewhere else entirely.  I don't want them worrying about the possibility that I might try to "end-around" them,...creating an unsafe situation, and probably impacting how they would work a bird.

Never would I consider backing out far enough to make another hunter think I was leaving, and then sneaking in to try to steal someone else's bird.  That would never cross my mind to do that,...and anybody that would pull that needs to be "disciplined" in some manner. 

For me, since I would never consider a physical confrontation or damaging their vehicle, I would do my best to scare that bird off before the guy was rewarded for his BS actions.  That can be accomplished without direct confrontation with the guy. 

I guess I  am just getting old and cranky, but that's my perspective on it.  Fortunately, I have never had anybody intentional do something so disrespectful while hunting

[hobbes]

I agree totally.  It was completely disrespectful.  Trust me Gobblenut,  I'm not always that forgiving.  Ive embarassed myself more times with my big mouth than i care to admit luckily most of it wasn't while carrying a gun.  I can fly off the handle entirely too quick so I try to avoid any opportunity to lose it.  I'm typically with my boys (at least the last 6 or 7 years) and that sways most of my choices.  You know....the "What kind of men do I want them to grow up to be" voice.  Not to mention I dont Want some fool shooting towards me or them and I dont need 4 flat tires on my rig the next time I walk back.

My brother had two guys set up on a midmorning bird he was already calling to once on NF.  He could hear them walk in on the next ridge over and caught a glimpse or two of them.  He swore up and down that they knew he was there since they parked just past his truck.  My brother is more than proficient at killing fat easterns, but the guy's lousy sounding calls must have sounded good to the tom because the tom that had been steadily creeping his way in began to drift towards the other guy.  My brother was quite PO'd, and I can understand that completely.   However, he decided to fire off a round in a safe direction into the sky to make sure he scared the bird and they couldn't kill it since he was afraid he'd get shot if he ran towards the bird. 

I told him he should have let it be.  There was forest service on both sides of the road and they may not have heard him calling.  He couldn't believe that, but some people are just that ignorant.  He later found out that the two "guys" was a father son(a kid) pair.  Maybe dad should have been smarter, but the kid knew no better and was probably hoping for his first tom. 

We tend to only see things from our own perspective and fail sometimes to consider the other guy's.

Now....let's see if some loser blows a hunt for me and my youngest in the morning on public land and I have to eat crow.

[Tail Feathers]

Poor sportsmanship.
I saw two young men park beside two trucks at a FL WMA last year and get out and literally run past two guys heading into the corner of the property. 

Yep, the latecomers got the whole corner to themselves.  I hope they turned an ankle running in tho.

[sswv]

hey GobbleNut.   no problem here and THANK YOU for the apology.   it's all good and I hope we communicate for years to come.

[GobbleNut]

hey GobbleNut.   no problem here and THANK YOU for the apology.   it's all good and I hope we communicate for years to come.

Good deal, sswv.  I try to be careful with how I word things, but sometimes it comes across wrong.  Glad to hear things are good between us.

[g8rvet]

My nephew had almost the same thing happen a few years later.  This time he elected to stand up and start talking in a loud voice.  He then left and went elsewhere to look for a bird. 

He hunted the exact same location this morning and did not see another soul.  Nor did he hear a gobble. 

Gobblenut, 

I pulled up in a nearby location and a guy was parked.  He was outside the truck.  Now mind you, there is a mile of swamp bottom and ridge past where he was parked.  I got out to see if he had a bird roosted or would be working toward any bird he heard.  Turns out we knew each other.  We quickly made a plan (I would only chase one north of this finger of the swamp and he would only chase on south of it).  We both heard birds.  Neither of us got one (mine was on the far side and flew out that way).  Don't know why he did not get one, but he later told me he had not killed it.  I used a similar tactic in a Mississippi WMA when we were duck hunting and had our decoys set. Someone walks in a sets up 100 yards past our decoys - right in line with where we needed to shoot.  We walked down and told them they were in our line of fire and were gonna mess us up. They were younger guys and said they would leave. We told them not to leave as we had scouted a mess of birds there the day before and we just helped them reposition to a safer spot.  Both groups killed birds and they thanked us on the way out.  Communication goes a long way.

[fallhnt]

It's public land but tools like that do that kind of stuff anyplace they hunt.

[Izzyjoe]

I hunt public land also, so I feel the pain as well. I had it happen to me several times, and it's really upsetting if you've scouted a bird, and spent a lot of time doing prep work, to have somebody walk in and either kill the bird, or blow the deal. I'm a cool headed guy, and I'll let a lot of crap go, cause I believe what my grandpa told me, that turn about is fair play!

[Clif Owen]

All of this sounds like me last weekend. I walked into a spot about 900 yards down a logging road. Right at daylight. I hear a bird farther in. So, I went that way. I realized the bird was across a creek and I needed to go there too. So, I crossed the creek. My plan was to angle up the ridge down from him. But, I walked up on a guy set up by a tree. I whispered I was sorry..I had no idea he was even there. I was at that time .96 miles from my truck (by GPS). I gestured to let him know I was going back to my right, which was kind of the way I came from. I went over a couple of hills and listened to him (the turkey) for about an hour before the guy shot. I never heard him call. I would have stopped if I had. I just pray he knows I didn't walk in on him intentionally. I still have no idea where he came in there from as I didn't pass anybody else and he sure didn't walk past me. I think the nearest road was about 3/4 mile but not sure what the ground looked like in there. Oh well..I did what I thought was right. It hurts though...especially since I lost a striker somewhere in there that I had just gotten.