Pattern is too TIGHT

[catclr]

I used Fed. #5 2 oz., 3" on my first Pa. bird this year, at over the allowed to say range & my second Pa. bird was shot using Longbeard xr #6 1 3/4 oz. 3" at 25 yds.  Both dead as dead can be.  Both sight points were the waddles!

[natman]

I don't mind 10" patterns. The only problem is when I have a 10" pattern at 40yds and a baseball size pattern at 20yds.

A baseball is 3" in diameter. If you can't hit a spot with a 3" pattern at 20 yards it means you can't hit a 3" target with a bullet at 20 yards. 3" at 20 yards is equal to 15" at 100 yards or 15 minutes of angle.

If you can't shoot a lot tighter than 15 minutes of angle your problem is not with too tight a pattern. I'd suggest that you make sure your shotgun shoots where it's aimed. Then take a 22 and see if you can hit the end of a soda can at 20 yards. One of those tests ought to uncover the real problem.

[Longshanks]

I don't mind 10" patterns. The only problem is when I have a 10" pattern at 40yds and a baseball size pattern at 20yds.

A baseball is 3" in diameter. If you can't hit a spot with a 3" pattern at 20 yards it means you can't hit a 3" target with a bullet at 20 yards. 3" at 20 yards is equal to 15" at 100 yards or 15 minutes of angle.

If you can't shoot a lot tighter than 15 minutes of angle your problem is not with too tight a pattern. I'd suggest that you make sure your shotgun shoots where it's aimed. Then take a 22 and see if you can hit the end of a soda can at 20 yards. One of those tests ought to uncover the real problem.

I can tell you that after 40 years of turkey hunting that if you think your chances of missing aren't increased by hunting with a pattern that is 3" at 20 yds you would be confused. Sighting a gun in is easy. A factor you aren't considering is that with Win LB's that 3" pattern doesn't always hit in the same place. For that reason I would rather not hunt with a 3" pattern that wanders.   Your math has you mislead about the realities of turkey hunting.  Allot of the turkey's I have killed over the years have been well inside 20yds and not always standing still. If you are thinking that even the best turkey hunters and shots don't miss you would be wrong. The majority of misses I have seen guiding and filming have been the close shots. Keep hunting with the overly tight patterns and a few misses will teach you more than adding, multiplying, and dividing..that patterns can actually be too tight in many scenarios in the turkey woods.

[natman]

I don't mind 10" patterns. The only problem is when I have a 10" pattern at 40yds and a baseball size pattern at 20yds.

A baseball is 3" in diameter. If you can't hit a spot with a 3" pattern at 20 yards it means you can't hit a 3" target with a bullet at 20 yards. 3" at 20 yards is equal to 15" at 100 yards or 15 minutes of angle.

If you can't shoot a lot tighter than 15 minutes of angle your problem is not with too tight a pattern. I'd suggest that you make sure your shotgun shoots where it's aimed. Then take a 22 and see if you can hit the end of a soda can at 20 yards. One of those tests ought to uncover the real problem.

I can tell you that after 40 years of turkey hunting that if you think your chances of missing aren't increased by hunting with a pattern that is 3" at 20 yds you would be confused. Sighting a gun in is easy. A factor you aren't considering is that with Win LB's that 3" pattern doesn't always hit in the same place. For that reason I would rather not hunt with a 3" pattern that wanders.   Your math has you mislead about the realities of turkey hunting.  Allot of the turkey's I have killed over the years have been well inside 20yds and not always standing still. If you are thinking that even the best turkey hunters and shots don't miss you would be wrong. The majority of misses I have seen guiding and filming have been the close shots. Keep hunting with the overly tight patterns and a few misses will teach you more than adding, multiplying, and dividing..that patterns can actually be too tight in many scenarios in the turkey woods.

If Win LBs indeed cause a wandering POI, then I'd shoot something else. That falls under the suggestion that he check that the gun shoots where it aims.

Sorry if you don't like the math, but the truth is the truth. Calling a turkey is hard, hitting it with a shotgun should be easy, at least compared to hitting it with a rifle. The OP should address the actual issue, whatever it is, instead of compromising 40 yard performance by trying to mask whatever is causing him to miss with a wider short distance pattern.

[Longshanks]

     Turkey hunting rarely presents perfect situation shots. Try sitting still at the base of a tree for 2-3 hours and then have a turkey come in to your off handed side. Heart pounding, twist around, possibly have to shoot left handed, raise your gun when he goes behind a tree and then have to wait with your gun up for several minutes. Then when he comes around the tree running in to where he heard the call coming from..take the shot. That whole minute of angle goes out the window at that point and a pattern with a little forgiveness helps tremendously. (Situation I have encountered countless times)
     I agree, I don't think I would be looking to shoot a 26"-30" pattern. I'm turning patterns anywhere from 160's-330's in a 10 @ 40 with loads other than LB's that give a 10"-12" pattern at closer ranges. Some guys set their guns up to shoot 20-30yds. To each his own. Not something I would be interested in doing.  Don't need turkey chokes or turkey loads to turn a good 30" pattern.

[natman]

     Turkey hunting rarely presents perfect situation shots. Try sitting still at the base of a tree for 2-3 hours and then have a turkey come in to your off handed side. Heart pounding, twist around, possibly have to shoot left handed, raise your gun when he goes behind a tree and then have to wait with your gun up for several minutes. Then when he comes around the tree running in to where he heard the call coming from..take the shot. That whole minute of angle goes out the window at that point and a pattern with a little forgiveness helps tremendously. (Situation I have encountered countless times)

Believe it or not, I have been on a turkey hunt more than once and am very familiar with the crazy ways shots can present themselves. That's why it's a good thing they're hunted with a shotgun. A shotgun is already pretty forgiving. Hitting a point with a 3" pattern at 20 yards requires the same degree of accuracy as keeping your shots on a dinner plate at 50 yards or a 15" car wheel at 100 yards with a rifle. That's a pretty casual standard. If I were checking someone out to go deer hunting and they couldn't shoot better than that, they wouldn't go.

I agree, I don't think I would be looking to shoot a 26"-30" pattern. I'm turning patterns anywhere from 160's-330's in a 10 @ 40 with loads other than LB's that give a 10"-12" pattern at closer ranges. Some guys set their guns up to shoot 20-30yds. To each his own. Not something I would be interested in doing.  Don't need turkey chokes or turkey loads to turn a good 30" pattern.

It would be one thing to use a bit more open pattern at 30 yards *if* you were never going to shoot past that distance. But that's not what the OP wants:

[Shoebuck]This season I shot a Benelli M2 with an Indian Creek choke that put 225 shot in a 10 inch circle at 40 measured yds. ....I am looking to start over with this gun and see if I can come up with a combo that will shoot a nice even pattern in a 26 to 30 inch circle at 40 yds.  This should than be a good killer at 25 to 30 later in the season and still be very efficient at 40 yds.

That 225 pellets in a 10" circle will become 25 pellets if evenly spread out over 30 inches. Not what I'd call very efficient. You can't have it both ways. Fortunately, you don't need to.

[Longshanks]

You know the beauty of it is people can shoot whatever they want and that's their business. I know what works best for me and what provides the most consistent results. I hunt with allot of folks that hunt for a living and their thought process is the same about patterns. Since longbeards came out I've heard stories all over this country about folks missing turkey's standing right in front of them. I've seen folks..that know how to shoot..miss up close with LB's. Sure I've killed turkey's with LB's but there is no margin for error at close distances. Missed one at close distance that caught me in an awkward position.  I killed one at 12 yds and another at 15 yds and they looked like I shot them with slugs. When most of the turkeys I kill are inside 30yds there's no need for that type of pattern. I pattern my guns to have a killing pattern at 40 yds and a 10"-12" pattern at closer ranges. It just works.

*it seems the original poster likes the idea of shooting a good pattern at 40yds with a 10" pattern at closer distances if you read his remarks in the thread. He found what he was looking for and that's what makes Old Gobbler the best site around.

[owlhoot]

Turkey heads and neck moving around,exited on the hunt.   Funny how lots of patterns even at 40 posted have a poa spot on them and the 10" circle is high,low and left or right . Quite a few on the edge of the 10" circle .  Advice to shoot at large piece of paper , why if your shots are on the money always . And this is at paper, more than likely off a solid rest and off a good position.  No trembling joints, no excitement and paper don't move or change position as your squeezing the slack out of a trigger , which on most shot guns leave something to be desired for precise shooting .   Yes I realize that some need to finish adjusting their sights or Red dots , but the pics posted show the variables.   Heck of a lot easier hitting a 10" kill zone of a deer at 50 yards with a scoped rifle shot than to hit a 2" wide turkey head with a 3" pattern, one step or head bob and he is out of that easily.
That 10" is probably conservative too.   

[Longshanks]

Completely agree. Most of the patterns we see on here where the POA/POI is off..these guys are making sure they have the pattern they want before they go through the process of sighting in. Occasionally we see people that just aren't shooting a big enough piece of paper to see what the pattern is doing. Sighting a gun in is easy. Can be costly and rough on the shoulder..but not difficult. The idea that shooting the turkey is the easy part and that it's a gimmie once the turkey comes..yea right..40 years of turkey hunting, filming and guiding has shown me different. I've seen the best miss. Granted, calling, setup, concealment, when to move/when not to move, etc are the most important factors in turkey hunting, the shot is not always easy or a guaranteed kill..too many factors.

[BandedSpur]

Yep, anybody that says they've never missed a turkey is either lying or they haven't killed that many. The tighter the pattern, the greater the likelihood of a miss.

[owlhoot]

Yep, anybody that says they've never missed a turkey are either lying or they haven't killed that many. The tighter the pattern, the greater the likelihood of a miss.

heck i have even missed turkey with a not so tight pattern, BUT IT WASN'T MY FAULT

[Jimspur]

      I'm with you there Longshanks. I've  been turkey hunting long enough to know that a 3" pattern at 20 yards is too tight for me.
      A 3" pattern at 20 yards means any combination of your barrel
wiggling or the turkeys head moving 1 1/2" results in a miss at 20 yards.
      Stuff happens in the field and we don't always get the shot we want.
      The turkeys I shoot don't always stand and pose for me.
Sometimes I might need to shoot a walking or running turkey.
      But, like you said to each his own.
We all have to decide what is right for the way we hunt.

[Onpoint]

      I'm with you there Longshanks. I've  been turkey hunting long enough to know that a 3" pattern at 20 yards is too tight for me.
      A 3" pattern at 20 yards means any combination of your barrel
wiggling or the turkeys head moving 1 1/2" results in a miss at 20 yards.
      Stuff happens in the field and we don't always get the shot we want.
      The turkeys I shoot don't always stand and pose for me.
Sometimes I might need to shoot a walking or running turkey.
      But, like you said to each his own.
We all have to decide what is right for the way we hunt.

I killed 4 turkeys this year that I don't know if I would have killed with a super tight pattern

First was an offhand shot at less than 10 yards..
Second was the very next day, bird gobbled in behind me, I spun around the tree too far cuz when he popped up he was slightly forward of me, I tried to correct when he went behind a couple big oaks but he busted me ans turned and took off running, fortunately the way I needed him to go.
3rd was on a double, my wife was "supposed" to shoot the strutter. We were set up about 10 yards apart ans she couldn't see the strutter. I'm on my turkey and I couldn't see the strutter either. BOOM, all I see at the end of my bead is a puff of feathers and "my" turkey hit the deck. I quickly scanned the area ans didn't see the other bird. I jumped to my feet and saw him in a low spot running like hell. I swung and rollled him over like shooting a rabbit.
Last but not least I realized I made a mistake in my setup. There was a pine tree blowed down about 20 yards in front of me and I thought "I bet he comes right in behind that tree." Sure enough he did ans when he cleared it I had to shoot him on a fast walk between 2 trees about a foot wide. Bam. 4 tough shots I was glad to have a more forgiving pattern on..

[Longshanks]

      I'm with you there Longshanks. I've  been turkey hunting long enough to know that a 3" pattern at 20 yards is too tight for me.
      A 3" pattern at 20 yards means any combination of your barrel
wiggling or the turkeys head moving 1 1/2" results in a miss at 20 yards.
      Stuff happens in the field and we don't always get the shot we want.
      The turkeys I shoot don't always stand and pose for me.
Sometimes I might need to shoot a walking or running turkey.
      But, like you said to each his own.
We all have to decide what is right for the way we hunt.

I killed 4 turkeys this year that I don't know if I would have killed with a super tight pattern

First was an offhand shot at less than 10 yards..
Second was the very next day, bird gobbled in behind me, I spun around the tree too far cuz when he popped up he was slightly forward of me, I tried to correct when he went behind a couple big oaks but he busted me ans turned and took off running, fortunately the way I needed him to go.
3rd was on a double, my wife was "supposed" to shoot the strutter. We were set up about 10 yards apart ans she couldn't see the strutter. I'm on my turkey and I couldn't see the strutter either. BOOM, all I see at the end of my bead is a puff of feathers and "my" turkey hit the deck. I quickly scanned the area ans didn't see the other bird. I jumped to my feet and saw him in a low spot running like hell. I swung and rollled him over like shooting a rabbit.
Last but not least I realized I made a mistake in my setup. There was a pine tree blowed down about 20 yards in front of me and I thought "I bet he comes right in behind that tree." Sure enough he did ans when he cleared it I had to shoot him on a fast walk between 2 trees about a foot wide. Bam. 4 tough shots I was glad to have a more forgiving pattern on..

Great example of the realities of turkey hunting. Congratulations..way to get it done under difficult circumstances.

[Jimspur]

      I'm with you there Longshanks. I've  been turkey hunting long enough to know that a 3" pattern at 20 yards is too tight for me.
      A 3" pattern at 20 yards means any combination of your barrel
wiggling or the turkeys head moving 1 1/2" results in a miss at 20 yards.
      Stuff happens in the field and we don't always get the shot we want.
      The turkeys I shoot don't always stand and pose for me.
Sometimes I might need to shoot a walking or running turkey.
      But, like you said to each his own.
We all have to decide what is right for the way we hunt.

I killed 4 turkeys this year that I don't know if I would have killed with a super tight pattern

First was an offhand shot at less than 10 yards..
Second was the very next day, bird gobbled in behind me, I spun around the tree too far cuz when he popped up he was slightly forward of me, I tried to correct when he went behind a couple big oaks but he busted me ans turned and took off running, fortunately the way I needed him to go.
3rd was on a double, my wife was "supposed" to shoot the strutter. We were set up about 10 yards apart ans she couldn't see the strutter. I'm on my turkey and I couldn't see the strutter either. BOOM, all I see at the end of my bead is a puff of feathers and "my" turkey hit the deck. I quickly scanned the area ans didn't see the other bird. I jumped to my feet and saw him in a low spot running like hell. I swung and rollled him over like shooting a rabbit.
Last but not least I realized I made a mistake in my setup. There was a pine tree blowed down about 20 yards in front of me and I thought "I bet he comes right in behind that tree." Sure enough he did ans when he cleared it I had to shoot him on a fast walk between 2 trees about a foot wide. Bam. 4 tough shots I was glad to have a more forgiving pattern on..

        I would venture to say that with today's loads and chokes,
more turkeys are missed because the pattern is too tight than too loose.
        Onpoint's examples are typical of what can happen.
Good shootin' Onpoint.