The Myth of Hunting Pressure

[g8rvet]

I got to thinking about this again this morning.   Think about the bird that was shot at and missed, then just 3 days later two birds were called in and 1 was shot but 1 was leery. Now assuming the 2nd bird that was leery was the same bird missed 3 days earlier, what says more?  What is more striking, the fact that he was coming but leery, or the fact that there he is 3 days later responding to the hen sounds just like he did before when  he got shot at?  If he "learned" to avoid or shy away from hen  calling after being shot at, why would he come at all ?  I mean seriously, why would he sat there and think, I will come back to this same sound which caused me to get shot at 3 days ago, but instead of coming to 40 yards, I'm stopping at 50, cause I am a little "leery".  What sense would this make?   Must be a slow learner.

I would guess he was following his buddy.  He had enough smarts to have a bad feeling, but not enough to say "Hey, THIS sounds so familiar.  It seems like I have been here before. Slow down there Jeff, I think something might be BOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMM.   Oh yeah, that's what it was. Sorry Jeff."

[Ihuntoldschool]

Strong supporting evidence to Shaman's point #1 in my opinion.   Any influence that being shot at had on the bird if it did have any at all was overriden by other factors, the most important factor being the physiological urge to breed.   That and slow learners, very slow.

[g8rvet]

Maybe.  Would the bird have reacted differently if he were alone?  Also, this is private land and his human interactions are minimal.  But point taken, if it were all about pressure, he could have led his buddy away too! 

[woody328]

Having hunted birds myself for more than 25 years, and my dad having hunted them for close to 60 in heavily hunted areas, there is no doubt in my mind that hunting pressure adversely affects turkeys. That is not to say that an old, heavily hunted gobbler cannot get caught in a moment of weakness. He can, just like an old buck on public land can be killed during the rut. Just because they get killed, does not mean that they have not learned from past experiences and were generally harder to kill than their counterpart on a low pressure lease.

I had this experience once. My dad and I hunted the same two gobblers for four days in a row. They would answer us, but would move in the opposite direction from us down an old logging road. One day we would go to one side and they would go to the other. The next day, the opposite, and the next, and the next. Finally, dad suggested we split up about 800 yards apart on this logging road. I called, he stayed silent. The birds started off close to me, but I pushed them over dad and he killed them both without ever touching a call. They didn't have hens with them. They were simply moving away from our calls.

If you really want a test, go out to a heavily pressured public area and try to call in and kill an old gobbler in the fall. That is where a pressured bird becomes all but impossible to kill.

[Ihuntoldschool]

Pressure has nothing to do with the fact that fall gobblers are hard to call in. Mature longbeards in the fall have no concern with re-grouping like jakes or hens do.  If they do re-group it will be days not hours after a bust.  If one does come to you he will come silent, but really has no concern with coming to another longbeard or any other turkey at that time of the year.   

On the gobblers that went away from you, are you suggesting that they were call-shy?  That they were conditioned to avoid the sound of a hen? 

[owlhoot]

Pressure has nothing to do with the fact that fall gobblers are hard to call in. Mature longbeards in the fall have no concern with re-grouping like jakes or hens do.  If they do re-group it will be days not hours after a bust.  If one does come to you he will come silent, but really has no concern with coming to another longbeard or any other turkey at that time of the year.   

On the gobblers that went away from you, are you suggesting that they were call-shy?  That they were conditioned to avoid the sound of a hen?

Killed many a gobbler in the fall by calling.
Some came in a  tom group, some were with the hen and young flocks.

[owlhoot]

"If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end in doubts; but if he will be content to begin with doubts, he shall end in certainties."
? Francis Bacon

Certainties=On days are when turkeys are relatively easy to call in.
    off days=turkeys are relatively hard to call in.

And doubts = the life of a turkey hunter, why did he do that? What did i do?
And certainties again=we don't actually think we are going to figure them ole toms out.   
   Francis is no turkey hunter, lol

[shaman]

Bacon is right on in one way.

If you read books, watch videos, or just listen to old turkey hunters, you walk away with some belief, some degree of certainty about turkeys and turkey hunting.  These certainties are what work against a hunter.  You have to approach turkeys and turkey hunting with an open mind, and clear your head of certainties.

I hunted for twenty years, thinking I was doing it all wrong.   That was because I was hunting them like Ben Lee, Ray Eye, and those guys.   Finally , I gave up on all I read and watched and started observing turkey behavior --  my own eyes, my own turkeys, my own land.   Over time all the certainties fell away.  I hunt turkeys now with fresh eyes.

If I can wax philosophical here for a minute, the Taoists  will tell you there is nothing more worthless than a dead Taoist sage.  He might have been the greatest philosopher when he was alive, but now that he's assumed ambient temperature, he is like a campfire that is burned out. His bones give no warmth.  His words have no meaning. So it is with turkey hunters. 

Most of the great turkey hunters I've known personally could not tell you squat about how they did it.  They were not generally literate, let alone introspective.  They just did it.  I always find it funny.  I love being on turkey hunting forums, but at the same time most of the folks I've known that were great turkey hunters could not have understood a computer.  In fact one of them bought a computer, thinking it would be a good thing for him and his wife, and then tried to get me to buy it when he could not figure out how to put it together. 

I write.  I write constantly.  It probably kept me from a good deal of things in my life, certainly from being a big success in business.  Although I write a lot about turkeys and turkey hunting, turkey season is the one time of year when I get to put all the words aside, put on a camo ball cap and try my best to be just slightly more intelligent than a 20 lb bird. Most of the time I fail miserably. I do it to clear my head, get all the certainties out, look at the world with fresh eyes.

[turkey_slayer]

Nice post eggshell

[jakesdad]

#10 is the ruin of many a hunter(myself included)

[woody328]

Pressure has nothing to do with the fact that fall gobblers are hard to call in. Mature longbeards in the fall have no concern with re-grouping like jakes or hens do.  If they do re-group it will be days not hours after a bust.  If one does come to you he will come silent, but really has no concern with coming to another longbeard or any other turkey at that time of the year.   

On the gobblers that went away from you, are you suggesting that they were call-shy?  That they were conditioned to avoid the sound of a hen?

A heavily pressured old gobbler is even more difficult to kill in the fall than is the same bird that hasn't been pressured. You obviously haven't done much fall hunting if you think a scattered old tom isnt prone to quickly regrouping. The first gobbler I ever killed was out of a group of three old gobblers. We roosted them but couldn't get them to come in. Later that morning, we busted them. We moved a couple hundred yards, sat down, called once and the one I killed literally ran to us. Fall hunting is also about more than busting a flock and calling them back. I've called up old gobblers that I've busted, old gobblers straight off the roost, and mixed flocks of old gobblers and hens.

I do in fact believe that those gobblers were conditioned to take a wait and see approach and go the opposite way if the hen was unresponsive to him. A hen will go to a gobbler just like a gobbler will go to a hen and I believe these two birds had been spooked/ shot at a few times and learned their lesson.

[shaman]

Eggshell, I agree with most of what you say.  Except the part about pressure. If "pressured" bird can be killed up to the last day of season, then what is the point of considering pressure at all?

I like IHunt's read on what I'm saying. That is, that mature gobs are most like to turn "ON" in the latter part of season. To me, it is perseverance that counts.  The point is not talking yourself into thinking gobs can learn all that much.  Turkeys are mostly "OFF." When they're "ON"  it is a gift from God. Man does not have a whole lot to do with it.  I just came in from putting a bunch of gobblers to bed.  They were definately ON.  Whether they're ON during the season, 2 weeks away here in KY is anybody's guess. It was the Yute Opener here in KY-- first time in 16 seasons I didn't have a Yute to hut with.  It was still fun to put them to bed. We'll see if they're on again in the morning. If so, I'll have a whopping good podcast for y'all. 

Look, I'm not trying to tell you about Merriams or Osceolas or turkeys in Ontario or Missouri.  All I'm talking about is my turkeys in the Trans-Bluegrass, SW Bracken County  Kentucky.    You may have a whole different experience.  My point is that this is what I see. YMMV.

[Ihuntoldschool]

You proved the importance of a proper setup and that it is easier to call a turkey into a spot he feels comfortable or where he wants to go.  You did nothing to disprove Shaman's theory on point #1.

Like what turkey slayer said, IQ of the hunter not the IQ of the bird.

[owlhoot]

You proved the importance of a proper setup and that it is easier to call a turkey into a spot he feels comfortable or where he wants to go.  You did nothing to disprove Shaman's theory on point #1.

Like what turkey slayer said, IQ of the hunter not the IQ of the bird.

Proper setup , calling a bird from below him , on purpose?
So where he wants to go.  Where he wants to go is find the dang hen making all that racket and hit that.
He really wants her to come to him, that is what all the strutting and gobbling is about.
But guess what ? He is leery about that field near the road. during the past week he has heard a racket of yelp yelp yelp yelp, cut cut cut cut cluck cluck cluck then  a pause and then all over again, Just like the hunting channel and the many dvd's for sale now. For the last 5 times he has strutted and gobbled his best and no hen came out. One time those 2 hens never moved. But they looked good! Twice now he has seen those strange upright figures near the edge of the field where all that racket has come from. And once , as he stood quietly back of the edge in the brush he saw one of the strange upright figures go and just pick up those 2 hens that never moved. OMG   . Man i better be careful around that field , but the driving instinct to breed is strong. So the next morning he is out there gobbling again, but wait there is a strutter in my field, right close to all that racket yelp, cut cut cut cut, peck peck peck yelp again. Man if he don't quit strutting i am going to go across that field and whoop his tail feathers. But he is hesitant , he knows he is bigger and badder but those hens that don't move and the upright forms are in his tiny mind.  So he pauses and suddenly another gobbler is in the field , a younger bird he knows. Suddenly the other bird races across the field and right up to the strutter and BOOOM! a loud thunderous roar and the upright figures are there,whopping and hollering in a strange talk.
Now in the meantime he has had 4 hens from the creek below come to him and had a heck of a time, they were quite , shy girls who only yelped and clucked but came to him. Two more hens he had to go to the creek to meet , they were on the other side and he could see them walking and scratching and he saw the one yelp at him, so he flew across and had a nice time. All the while the loud girls back up in the field were carrying on so, but they quiet girls acted nervous and didn't want to go up there so they went further away in the woods. He gobbled and gobbled but had to follow the girls who looked so good right in front of him. Now he stayed with the quite ones and roosted close, he didn't want to loose them as they were fun to be with but then the nesting started and they started avoiding him more and more.
They would leave him by himself and he started to get lonely, he had heard the loud hens some , but that never seemed to work and strange things going on up there, he hadn't seen or heard from a few guys he kicked around earlier in the year in those fields. And back across the creek and the strange barbed wire he hadn't seen the upright figures or heard the loud girls. But more of the quite ones were back here too. So he thought he would just stay, a few old buddies were around here too, and later when the girls were nesting or just not being nice or paying attention to him, he would like to hang out with them, maybe go get a bug to eat around the watering hole. Strut a bit with the fellas just not go crazy gobbling and for some reason the guys didn't want to go to the field?  Now the girls really slowed down and would hardly yelp back or cluck to say hi.  Then the loud ones were back and the urge to breed was strong , it had been a few days, but something just held him back. He was only 3 but pretty wise for his age as he thought , i always had success with the quite ones, and a few days ago another thunderous boom came from up in the field. So i better stay down here. But But wait a quite girl is talking again down by the creek. But i want to go to the field where is it all green and it is sprinkling so the worms and bugs are easy up there. I wonder if she will come, nope she isn't  coming this way, she is staying there , i better head down there, no need to gobble , just strut to show her what a catch i am when i get there. Oh there she is , across that barbed vine , here we go.  Wait wait what the heck is that moving, oh no!  BOOOOM , run run run hard  BOOOOOM again and that hurt but quickly as his thoughts ended .(guy was shooting Long Beards and missed the first shot at 20 yards) Got him at 40 though with the second. The old hunter had used pressured tactics to be successful, on the last day of the season he thought as he hefted the bird high in the air and admired the beard and spurs. Putting the bird in his vest  and marking his tag, he had learned that in 25 years of turkey hunting to change up things depending on conditions of the hunt as there are no sure things in turkey hunting.  As he carried the tom out he thought he needed to show the bird to his grandson , who would be 6 next spring. And figure out how to post a picture of the ole tom on Old Gobbler. As he loaded the bird in the truck, the weight off his shoulders, he turned and took a deep breath and took the green spring and the hunt all in. As he started the truck he thought , hey maybe my grandson could show me how to get those pics up on OG? he is pretty good on computers. Then afterwords we can go pick out a blind for next year when he goes.

Have a nice day!     

[g8rvet]

Good story Owl from Tom's perspective is cool.  I don't know, but I assume a lot of it is tongue in cheek.  If not, that was Disney quality anthropomorphism! 

The scenario you describe is realistic as well as the results.  The thoughts by Tom?  Not at all, not in the way you put them, but I think you are just taking literary license and I appreciate that and enjoy it.  I think a lot of folks ascribe too much ability to "think" about the situation to turkeys, instead of mostly their ability to "react" to situations.  The last 2 years running, were it legal in Florida (it is this year), I could have killed a second bird on the same day - since he was standing right next to him buddy when he died. I called one back to 35 yards, just to see if I could and also to settle him down.  Then the schmuck proceeds to gobble and strut for 90 minutes in the field and I can't leave because I don't want to spook him.  I videoed him for a while snapped his pic a bunch (now my screensaver on myiPhone). 

Sometimes they seem smart as heck, and other times as dumb as a box of rocks.  Since that is not possible, what is the difference? I don't pretend to have the answers and some do (mostly the guys on the TV shows who's ego is only exceeded by the volume of birds located on the properties they hunt).  We would all seem like a "pro" on a butterball factory.  But I think it is less because those birds are dumb and more because if they screw up (or the turkey just acts like a turkey), they have so many more opportunities to kill one.  Honestly, if you put a radio collar on one of the birds and said "Okay Mr Pro man, kill THIS bird, on THIS property and you don't get to know where he is from the GPS", it would be a different game for a lot of the "Pros".  Of course some of them would do it, but those are the humble killers, not the TV supastars. 

This has been a very cool thread and I have enjoyed all the perspectives - from the hard core killers to the noobs like me.