Win Long Beard vs HTL....are we getting carried away?

[63beards]

to me, 40 yds. is too far to shoot a turkey, the fun is getting him in close, ( i wanna be looking him dead in the eye when i pull the trigger), if i can't get him close i'll come back & try him again another day, i would advise anyone not to shoot at a turkey further than 40 yds, to me the fun is calling him in, if you called him in to 40, you oughta be able to get him closer, at 40 you MIGHT kill him but i would much rather go home knowing i let him walk than wondering "did i wound him and he's gonna end up feeding coyotes?" an ol' tom deserves better than that, a good rule of thumb, WHEN IN DOUBT, DON'T....

[TBab]

no more than any other shell that is out there, people are always going to push the limits!! we both know if they keep at 40 and in no problem its those who want to stroke their ego and kill something instead of letting it walk at 60 yards that wound birds with all shells made!!

Exactly what I was thinking. Everyone wants to think that just because your using HTL that it doesn't matter how far the bird is. Yeah it may kill one stone dead but if everyone kept it 40 and in there would be far less injured birds.

[drum817]

Lot's of very valid opinions here!!!    I have only been hunting turkeys for 10 years and in that 10 years I have never had to shoot over 25 yards.  I hold myself (firmly) to the 40 yard rule and I wish others would simply do the same.  I understand wanting to push the limits...but why is it necessary??  The biggest fun of the hunt to me is not the kill but the chase and getting that bird in close!!!  I watched a guy kill a bird last year at what turned out to be 72 steps (I told him to hold till the bird crossed the 40 yard mark)....luckily he got a few lucky pellets and killed the bird instead of injuring it.  It made me VERY VERY angry and RUINED the hunt for me!!!  If someone wants to push the limits by shooting paper targets then have at it....I'm all for it!!!  BUT, it is my personal belief that we as turkey hunters owe RESPECT to the animal we are killing by doing EVERYTHING in our power to make clean kills!!! How about promoting better woodsmanship and better calling skills as opposed to being able to shoot a bird at 60+ yards!!!  I am anxious to try the new Win long beard load but I will pattern it at 20-40 yards...if the bird stands and gobbles his brains out at 60 yards then he wins that day....no big deal! 

[chatterbox]

Lot's of very valid opinions here!!!    I have only been hunting turkeys for 10 years and in that 10 years I have never had to shoot over 25 yards.  I hold myself (firmly) to the 40 yard rule and I wish others would simply do the same.  I understand wanting to push the limits...but why is it necessary??  The biggest fun of the hunt to me is not the kill but the chase and getting that bird in close!!!  I watched a guy kill a bird last year at what turned out to be 72 steps (I told him to hold till the bird crossed the 40 yard mark)....luckily he got a few lucky pellets and killed the bird instead of injuring it.  It made me VERY VERY angry and RUINED the hunt for me!!!  If someone wants to push the limits by shooting paper targets then have at it....I'm all for it!!!  BUT, it is my personal belief that we as turkey hunters owe RESPECT to the animal we are killing by doing EVERYTHING in our power to make clean kills!!! How about promoting better woodsmanship and better calling skills as opposed to being able to shoot a bird at 60+ yards!!!  I am anxious to try the new Win long beard load but I will pattern it at 20-40 yards...if the bird stands and gobbles his brains out at 60 yards then he wins that day....no big deal! 

This!^^^^^^^^^^^^

[TBab]

Lot's of very valid opinions here!!!    I have only been hunting turkeys for 10 years and in that 10 years I have never had to shoot over 25 yards.  I hold myself (firmly) to the 40 yard rule and I wish others would simply do the same.  I understand wanting to push the limits...but why is it necessary??  The biggest fun of the hunt to me is not the kill but the chase and getting that bird in close!!!  I watched a guy kill a bird last year at what turned out to be 72 steps (I told him to hold till the bird crossed the 40 yard mark)....luckily he got a few lucky pellets and killed the bird instead of injuring it.  It made me VERY VERY angry and RUINED the hunt for me!!!  If someone wants to push the limits by shooting paper targets then have at it....I'm all for it!!!  BUT, it is my personal belief that we as turkey hunters owe RESPECT to the animal we are killing by doing EVERYTHING in our power to make clean kills!!! How about promoting better woodsmanship and better calling skills as opposed to being able to shoot a bird at 60+ yards!!!  I am anxious to try the new Win long beard load but I will pattern it at 20-40 yards...if the bird stands and gobbles his brains out at 60 yards then he wins that day....no big deal! 

Glad there are a lot of guys out there that have their heads on straight. Makes me proud to stand alongside ethical hunters because the lord knows there are a lot of them out there that don't care to do whatever they gotta do to kill. Even if it means injuring 1 or in some cases even more animals to do it.

[mightyjoeyoung]

Having been in the retail side of all this hype and marketing, I can tell you it is not the guys that come into a store, look quietly at the shelf and tell you they're fine and don't need help when you ask them and then, once they see what they're looking for, wave you over, point to the load they want and say "I'll take x boxes of the ______ turkey loads". 

It's one of two types of people-and they can go one of two ways with how they look at hunting...

It's the guy that comes in, either alone looking like he's standing in a snake pit, wondering what the heck he should buy and asks you a million questions and wants you to show him every gun on the rack. 
Then...there's the one that comes in with his "big, bad hunter" friend that tells him he NEEDS this gun or that gun and load or he'll never shoot a turkey because that's what some fat slob on TV siad he should get.  I'll take the UNEDUCATED hunter looking for help any day.  They are a blank slate and if I can just nudge him or her in the right direction then I looked at it as helping to make yet another ethical, responsible turkey hunter. 

I have shotgun/load combos that WILL kill a turkey far beyond what MOST hunters would and should even consider being a slam dunk shot.  You've seen the patterns.  But I NEVER go into the woods with the metality that I'm just out there to kill a bird.  I trully enjoy the outdoors and second maybe only to the fall change, the spring woods is about the only place I want to be.  I choose to see if I can get that bird so close I can see him blink.  I trully enjoy getting that bird so close that when I squeeze the trigger, there is a better than poor chance that that birds head just might come off!

Have I taken 4o yard shots?  Sure I have, but the vast majority have been 30 yards and under, I've been turkey hunting for 30 years now, you're going to get all manner of shots if you hunt long enough.  Have I taken shots further?  Yes, but not purposley-I either miss-judged the range or on ONE, single occasion I got antsy with a bird I had hunted for 3 years straight and never could get come in-always hung up just out of range and avoided decoys like the plague!  So, and I am none too ashamed to say this, I used my brother in law as as sacrificial lamb so to speak and put him in a spot I KNEW the bird would see and put out a couple deeks and when he heard my calls and saw those decoys, he skirted them and came right to me.  I still feel bad doing it and would have been more than happy had he gotten a shot, but that bird and me had a date with the dinner table.  ;} 

[Longshanks]

I've always looked for producing more effective patterns out to 40yds. This shell will get it done without paying the high price of HTL or TSS. Disappointed the Drury brothers are out there promoting long range shooting. I've seen bad results with folks trying to take long range shots with HTL out of customized shotguns..guns that turn amazing patterns at 40yds. Best thing we can do as turkey hunters is let folks know not to believe the lie that they can consistently kill turkey's at 60+ yards with lead.

[natman]

lol !!! out to 40 lead will kill every bird walking!!! come on hevi is not a have to have shell!! a turkeys neck is not near as hard to break as a piece of metal is to penetrate not a fair comparison.

Not the point I was trying to ask.  I'm not asking if you think I am right or wrong. I realize lead will kill at 40.  I am asking do you think these new lead loads will cause hunters to have a false sense of security on long range shots?

I see your point that the tight patterns might make it seem like lead would be effective past the point where penetration will have diminished to far.

I would offer that this has been a problem for quite some time with smaller pellets, such as lead 6s, giving paper patterns that look good at distances beyond the effective range of the individual pellets.

In the end BOTH pattern AND pellet effectiveness have to be considered, not just one or the other.

[Longshanks]

lol !!! out to 40 lead will kill every bird walking!!! come on hevi is not a have to have shell!! a turkeys neck is not near as hard to break as a piece of metal is to penetrate not a fair comparison.

Not the point I was trying to ask.  I'm not asking if you think I am right or wrong. I realize lead will kill at 40.  I am asking do you think these new lead loads will cause hunters to have a false sense of security on long range shots?

I see your point that the tight patterns might make it seem like lead would be effective past the point where penetration will have diminished to far.

I would offer that this has been a problem for quite some time with smaller pellets, such as lead 6s, giving paper patterns that look good at distances beyond the effective range of the individual pellets.

In the end BOTH pattern AND pellet effectiveness have to be considered, not just one or the other.

I would have to say..40yds or less..if you are shooting a Pb turkey load with 4's,5's, or 6's and the pattern is good..that's a dead turkey. Going past 40 is risky and 60-70 is kinda ridiculous. The good news is with a 40 limit, the Win longbeard loads may give you an extra 5 yds or so if you misjudge. 40 and inside has worked well with me regardless of the gun/shell/choke combination.

[buck_hunter21]

What I tried to convey in that article was that turkey hunting should be an enjoyable sport that allows us to spend time in the woods and see the wonders of nature. When a hunter feels pressure to kill a bird and show all of his friends, playing to the crowd, it becomes a competition of sorts and loses the real value of the experience.

[jivetalkinturkey]

 I'm far from an expert, and I haven't patterned all the loads on the market. Not even close really...but I can't help but think that to a certain extent the HTL phenomena is a bit of hype. Hevi 13 is like what 10% more dense?  Does that really equate to drastically greater penetration at turkey killing range? I've seen some of the ballistics and it does seem like there's a good deal more retained energy at 40 yards with the tungsten shot, but I wish I could run the numbers myself.

10% isn't even a good tip...

According to randy wakemen:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/no-tox_shotshells.htm

1. lead is approximately 11.1g/cc

2. Hevi 13 is around 12g/cc

3. Federal heavy weight (which people don't like because of the flight control wad) is around 15g/cc.

Just doesn't seem like that big a difference to me. I dont know. I know duck hunters would be thrilled to get their lead shot back.

Also, those pics of the sheet metal, looks like one is labeled #6, and the other #5. That's not really an apples to apples comparison.

[bawana]

Getting back to the authors original question, yes I am worried that the LB's will give people a false sense of security because it's such a dense pattern. Lead just doesn't have the punch to consistently kill longer range birds. The problem is unless you have a rangefinder with you, many of us will be off 5-10 yards on our guess as to distance. For that reason I've been using the Federal HW's for the last 4 years, and know how much harder they hit a bird.

[Tommythreetoes]

Agree with almost everyone here so far, and this may be semi repetitive...I like the 40 yds and closer game.  That said, we all know that some gun/she'll combos will kill beyond that.  The HTL has more killing power than lead.  If you can duplicate pellet count in a HTL an lead load, then the HTL has more energy at its target.  What this means to me is this...HTL has a greater fudge factor than lead at those greater distances beyond 40.  Keep it to 40, and pretty much everyone is ok no matter what you choose.  I like the extra fudge factor of HTL in case I make a yardage mistake.  Greater fudge factor costs money in this case though, and that I do not particularly like.  If you go to the woods thinking you have a 70 yard setup, then you WILL have trouble eventually.  Just my 2.

[mudhen]

I killed quite a few birds with Win HV Lead before the HTL shells came along.

I'm sure the LB's are good lead shells, for $24/10, they had better be.

I'll test the LB vs. H-13, and the one that performs the best will make the team.

H-13 has been good to me in tough conditions: bad weather in CA, NE, KS, MO, IA, TX, etc.

I'd be hard pressed to think a lead load will beat a HTL load across the board...

I know which shell will prevail, but I'll test anyway...

mudhen

[tomstopper]

Lot's of very valid opinions here!!!    I have only been hunting turkeys for 10 years and in that 10 years I have never had to shoot over 25 yards.  I hold myself (firmly) to the 40 yard rule and I wish others would simply do the same.  I understand wanting to push the limits...but why is it necessary??  The biggest fun of the hunt to me is not the kill but the chase and getting that bird in close!!!  I watched a guy kill a bird last year at what turned out to be 72 steps (I told him to hold till the bird crossed the 40 yard mark)....luckily he got a few lucky pellets and killed the bird instead of injuring it.  It made me VERY VERY angry and RUINED the hunt for me!!!  If someone wants to push the limits by shooting paper targets then have at it....I'm all for it!!!  BUT, it is my personal belief that we as turkey hunters owe RESPECT to the animal we are killing by doing EVERYTHING in our power to make clean kills!!! How about promoting better woodsmanship and better calling skills as opposed to being able to shoot a bird at 60+ yards!!!  I am anxious to try the new Win long beard load but I will pattern it at 20-40 yards...if the bird stands and gobbles his brains out at 60 yards then he wins that day....no big deal! 

Very well written & to the point. I do believe that alot of hunters on here feel this way also. Like stated before the problem is the young hunters that don't know any better and that will buy into the hype. Every year there is a group of us guys here in NY that rotate (or not depending n how many kids that are interested) taking new hunters out and teaching them how to hunt. This means teaching them ethics, woodsmanship, marksmanship, safety, calling, etc. We try to teach them that its not about the kill, but instead its about enjoying nature and the creatures that God has provided for us. Lets face it, I would rather they learn from the beginning instaed of learning by wounding these beautiful birds or any other animals that we all so love. What really ticks me off is the grown men (I have one here at work who just buys a choke & a box of shells & hits the woods) who bye into it and don't take the time to know their weapon & its capabilities. I just remember what my grandpa told me years ago "cant fix stupid". These are the ones that give us respectful hunters a bad rap.... Good luck this upcoming season gentle men....