Proph vs. .0025 Latex

[compton30]

So I'm preparing an resupply order and as I was going through the Pioneer website, I noticed you could get Green and Natural in a .0025" thickness.

Now I've never used the stuff as I have a nice supply of proph, but it got me to wondering. How similar is the clear prophylactic,
which is also a .0025" thickness to the Natural and Green latex of the same thickness?

Has anyone tried using them interchangeably? What were your findings? I think I'm going to order some of each to give it a shot because I can't help myself! What if it makes THE ONE!

[GobbleNut]

Ben, I ordered some of the .0025 green stuff a year or so ago.  I've used it some in a variety of combinations in calls.  I can't say I have noticed much difference in it than other similar material.  It certainly hasn't turned out to be the holy grail for me, at least...    ...still looking.   
No doubt, though, that using it in the right combinations, it will call turkeys...and, of course, hitting on that right combination in your personal call construction, it just might turn out to be "The One" for you.  Who knows until you give it a try...   
Jim

[Lonehowl]

It's good, but I will say I prefer Dead Ends 0025 and proph.

[compton30]

Ben, I ordered some of the .0025 green stuff a year or so ago.  I've used it some in a variety of combinations in calls.  I can't say I have noticed much difference in it than other similar material.  It certainly hasn't turned out to be the holy grail for me, at least...    ...still looking.   
No doubt, though, that using it in the right combinations, it will call turkeys...and, of course, hitting on that right combination in your personal call construction, it just might turn out to be "The One" for you.  Who knows until you give it a try...   
Jim

Jim, great to hear from you as always!

At the very least, I'm just hoping it has the same, "anti-wrinkling" qualities as the thicker latex. Stacking that wrinkled proph is my least favorite part of the process. Always exciting to get new materials to work with, regardless. I'll be sure to report back!

[Sadler McGraw]

More and more are going away from real proph and going to the light blue or aqua colored latex that is sold By Dead End.  Everyone calls it Proph, but it is actually not.  comes on large rolls and it cut into usable rectangles. 

I refuse to use any true proph in anything I build for customers now, I use the light blue proph instead.

A condom that was never rolled up, won't have the memory in the material like one that was.  Memory in latex is all part of why you see so many people making these ugly cut calls.  Because they have no clue how to stack it and have no clue because the cuts stick up in the air like horns on a goat.

[compton30]

More and more are going away from real proph and going to the light blue or aqua colored latex that is sold By Dead End.  Everyone calls it Proph, but it is actually not.  comes on large rolls and it cut into usable rectangles. 

I refuse to use any true proph in anything I build for customers now, I use the light blue proph instead.

A condom that was never rolled up, won't have the memory in the material like one that was.  Memory in latex is all part of why you see so many people making these ugly cut calls.  Because they have no clue how to stack it and have no clue because the cuts stick up in the air like horns on a goat.

So I have some of that blue stuff and it was sold to me as "proph" but you're right, it's clearly not the same material as standard proph. I think the tonal qualities are pretty similar to proph though.

That's an interesting point that I'd never considered. Those new cuts are baffling to me. I saw a "modified ghost cut" recently that looked like it needed NINE scissor cuts to make it. Legitimately nine. Wild to me

[Sadler McGraw]

The jacked up cuts that stick up in the air and look like horns on a goat are what I m referring to.  All of these new call makers have no clue how to stack latex so that the Horns don't stick up.  They will learn after 20,000 or so calls built.

[GobbleNut]

Those new cuts are baffling to me. I saw a "modified ghost cut" recently that looked like it needed NINE scissor cuts to make it. Legitimately nine. Wild to me

Ben, you know my "theory" about mouth calls and cut sequences and such.  I will admit that I have ended up with calls that had way lots of cuts in them to get them to the "turkey" in them...which for all of us, are often a function of our individual calling mechanics as much as anything.  Having said that, I am of the opinion that a lot of the "exotic" cut designs we see nowadays from competing call makers are just gimmicks to try to sell calls. 

Again, in my opinion, most folks that buy calls would be much better off just "starting from scratch" with an uncut call and learning to go through a cutting sequence rather than buying a call with some elaborate cut design that may or may not work for them. A basic tenant for me is that every mouth call user has to fit the individual call to their own calling mechanics.  ...But then again, it is just my opinion...   

[compton30]

Those new cuts are baffling to me. I saw a "modified ghost cut" recently that looked like it needed NINE scissor cuts to make it. Legitimately nine. Wild to me

Ben, you know my "theory" about mouth calls and cut sequences and such.  I will admit that I have ended up with calls that had way lots of cuts in them to get them to the "turkey" in them...which for all of us, are often a function of our individual calling mechanics as much as anything.  Having said that, I am of the opinion that a lot of the "exotic" cut designs we see nowadays from competing call makers are just gimmicks to try to sell calls. 

Again, in my opinion, most folks that buy calls would be much better off just "starting from scratch" with an uncut call and learning to go through a cutting sequence rather than buying a call with some elaborate cut design that may or may not work for them. A basic tenant for me is that every mouth call user has to fit the individual call to their own calling mechanics.  ...But then again, it is just my opinion...   

Couldn't agree more. I was probably more blown away just thinking about making all those cuts at a production level. That's a lot of work for a gimmick that is, as you said in so many words, probably antithetical to someone just getting into using these mouth calls.

[compton30]

The jacked up cuts that stick up in the air and look like horns on a goat are what I m referring to.  All of these new call makers have no clue how to stack latex so that the Horns don't stick up.  They will learn after 20,000 or so calls built.

So it's funny you mention this particular topic. I always thought I was maybe doing something wrong in terms of tension or the way I was cutting the calls or maybe even the scissors themselves that I was using. Because when I was finished with a call the reeda just laid dead flat. No curl in the top reed to speak of. But they sounded good and I don't sell them so I just pushed it aside and kept making calls lol.

I had never considered that how you stack it could impact that, even though I am pretty particular about how it's stacked. Interesting!

[GobbleNut]

The jacked up cuts that stick up in the air and look like horns on a goat are what I m referring to.  All of these new call makers have no clue how to stack latex so that the Horns don't stick up.  They will learn after 20,000 or so calls built.

So it's funny you mention this particular topic. I always thought I was maybe doing something wrong in terms of tension or the way I was cutting the calls or maybe even the scissors themselves that I was using. Because when I was finished with a call the reeda just laid dead flat. No curl in the top reed to speak of. But they sounded good and I don't sell them so I just pushed it aside and kept making calls lol.

I had never considered that how you stack it could impact that, even though I am pretty particular about how it's stacked. Interesting!

Guilty as charged about the "goat horn" issue.  The way I make calls, the horns pop up quite often.  I fully understand somebody that is making and selling calls wanting their calls to look "pretty" for the consumer.  Since I pretty much only make calls for myself, my only concern with any call I make, horns or not, is what the call sounds like when I have finished all the modifications I might go through to find the particular turkey in it that I am looking for. 

Sometimes my "horned calls" end up being the ones that have the best turkey in them. I will say that sometimes, with some calls made with certain reed materials (thinner stuff, mostly) the "horns" will have a tendency to fold back when calling...and I can state matter-of-factly that that ain't good! 

Having dealt with that issue occasionally, I can also state that those issues can also be overcome with additional cut modifications and trimming of the reeds,...which all leads back to my recurring mantra of "never discard a mouth call without learning how to tune them with additional cuts and reed modifications".  i.e......."horny calls" can be dealt with...I know this from lots of experience...   

[Sadler McGraw]

You will hear someone say " The reed keeps flipping up"   That is the reason why.

[compton30]

You will hear someone say " The reed keeps flipping up"   That is the reason why.

I know exactly what you mean. The first mouth yelper I ever bought would do that. I actually had completely forgotten about that it's been so long and so many calls in between.

Honestly I would've just guessed that the horns were caused by too much lateral tension as I've had many people say that they put a lot more tension on their calls than I do.

[GobbleNut]

You will hear someone say " The reed keeps flipping up"   That is the reason why.

I know exactly what you mean. The first mouth yelper I ever bought would do that. I actually had completely forgotten about that it's been so long and so many calls in between.

Honestly I would've just guessed that the horns were caused by too much lateral tension as I've had many people say that they put a lot more tension on their calls than I do.

Good discussion....
Based on my own experience, to get the tonal qualities I want, the heavier/thicker the reed material I use, the more lateral tension I generally have to put on the material to achieve that.  I would agree that it seems the more tension I put in the primary/top reed, the more likely I am to get the "horns".  That also seems to increase with the amount of back-tension put in a call, which is logical based on the fact that the material is being stretched backwards, naturally putting pressure on any cuts put in the center of the call, resulting in the tabs having a tendency to rise away from the secondary reeds. 

On the other hand, when using .004+ material for the top reed, even with the presence of goat horns, I generally don't have the fold-back issues...unless I put deep cuts in that top reed, which sometimes results in that problem.  In that case, I will modify the call to eliminate that fold-back issue. 

Conversely, using thinner stuff like proph and the .0025 stuff we started talking about, I don't have to put much tension to achieve those tonal qualities, and as a result, don't usually have the goat-horn and fold-back issues.  With that thin material, though, if I make a call with fairly deep cuts, the fold-back issue seems to increase accordingly. 

That is fairly rare, but still, if when doing a practice run with a call, if it folds back at any point, regardless of whether I think it is a "keeper", I will continue tuning modifications to eliminate the fold-back...or it will go in the "doubt-if-I-will-ever-hunt-with-this" pile.  Getting a fold-back squawk in the middle of a run when hunting is not a desirable thing...   

[Earlybird31]

This has opened up a rabbit hole for me. I usually use natural 0.025 latex for the dampening reeds and 0.03 latex for the sound reed. I get my stuff from Pioneer. It comes in zip lock bags which I store in a dark cool area. However, I do have creases that form in the latex and I do oftentimes have the wings of my calls (ghost cut) that elevate off the dampening reeds once completed. When I wet the call the wings tend to stick to the dampening reeds, so I'm not sure the sound is impacted. Also, I tend to use cut pieces of paper clips to keep the sound reed separated from the dampening reeds during storage.

Is there anything I'm doing wrong I need to change and is there a particular way I should store my latex/calls to avoid such issues? If this is unrelated to the above discussion, I apologize. Thanks beaucoup for everyone's feedback.