Recent Goulds Hunt Experience

[PalmettoRon]

I recently returned from a Goulds hunt put on by a well known outfitter. I last hunted Goulds with a different outfitter in 2014, hunted with him many times before that and hunted with Lovett Williams initially in 1997 in Chihuahua and again in 1998.

The previous hunts were all successful and did not involve hunting in sight or in close proximity to feeders. I never saw a feeder with Lovett or the other outfitter.I hunted without a guide with Lovett and on a 1:1 guide ratio with the other outfitter. I did virtually all the calling.

This most recent hunt involved hunting predominately on or in close proximity to active feeders. The contract we signed was for a 2:1 hunter to guide hunt. Our party was three hunters. We could not encourage a fourth hunter to go.

Shortly before the hunt we received information that our hunt party was now 6. I called and was told the hunt would now be 3:1. My buddy called the outfitter who did offer to refund him, but my buddy declined after being reassured and told what a great experience this would be. My antenna was up and I should have bailed, but because I had talked my friend and his son into this booking initially, I didn't want to ditch them.

The outfitter touts one of his advantages over the other outfits offering Goulds hunts in Mexico is the easy travel and quick access to the hunting ground. We landed in Mexico, were picked up and then driven to a hotel roughly 3 1/2 hours away. The next morning we were picked up and it took approximately 4 more hours including 2 hours on an unpaved road to reach camp. I hunted the same afternoon as arrival in Mexico with the other Mexican outfitter on some occasions and certainly was out before daylight the next day otherwise.

The recent outfitter also states in his advertising that most of the time he will have only have a few hunters unless there is a larger group that wants a customized experience. We didn't know any of the other 3 hunters, but they were all very good guys and I enjoyed meeting them. The outfitter touts an intimate and personal camp.

So we had 6 hunters with one American guide(not the outfitter-which wasn't expected) and one Mexican guide-the owner of the ranch.

Interestingly, we only had 4 guns for 6 hunters. This was not revealed until we were in camp. At the barest of minimums, if I pay for a hunt, I expect to have a gun in my hand. We were told when the birds come in to let them get to the decoys which were positioned only 12 yds away, take your time,  shoot and then the other hunter can shoot and perhaps even pass a gun off for the unarmed hunter to shoot. That's a novel concept and passing a recently fired gun to another person, still loaded and questionably off safe is a disaster waiting to happen. Positioning the decoys that close and waiting for them to get in them is not a good idea. It makes for wonderful video though.

Our American guide was a very nice, positive and hard working person, but whipped out an electronic caller and began utilizing it at high volume and repeatedly. Occasionally we would pull our calls out and try to get in the game, but were told to only make soft purrs which was laughable based on the volume and almost incessant e calling he was doing.

I am mad at myself that I didn't cancel this hunt once we found out it was to be 3:1. If we had been in the US and not 7 hrs from the airport, once I saw we were to share guns, I would have left camp.

I am also mad at myself that we didn't tell the guide to leave the e caller in camp. The guide praised the efficacy of the e caller and how hunters couldn't compete with it with their own calling. Well, no kidding. It was a recorded real bunch of turkeys. We should have dictated that this was unacceptable to us. That's on us.

Again, we also typically hunted close or even in direct sight of feeders. The fact that feeders and electronic calls would be utilized was not revealed before or after booking. Certainly, not having a gun with every hunter was not revealed prior to the hunt.

Everyone in my  3 man group killed a bird, one person killed and wounded a second bird and if we were into doubling on birds, my buddy and I could have killed 2.

My buddy and I spoke at length with the outfitter and guide yesterday on a conference call. We had received emails from him stating he wanted to achieve resolution of this issue and remedy it(his words).

The last night in Mexico, the guide said he had been in contact with the outfitter and that the outfitter was good about making things right.

We were able to vent and say our piece, but I was certainly taken aback by some of what he said. I complained about the feeder issue and that that was not revealed prior to the hunt. He stated EVERY Goulds outfitter in Mexico uses feeders and that they are necessary to concentrate the birds based on the large open country Goulds live in and based on his need to "produce" for hunters in a 3 1/2 day hunt. My hunts with Lovett were 4 day hunts, no feeders were seen and the crops of the 3 birds I killed with him had only wild food, not cracked corn or other grains. The other outfitter I previously hunted with multiple times certainly had no visible feeders or any known feeders that I or any of my buddies ever saw. His hunts likewise were 3 1/2 days and I killed at least 2 birds on every hunt with him.

He also said lots of his hunters were impressed with the electronic caller and wanted to know how they could get the same sounds downloaded to use such a device back home. I told him there was a reason they were illegal in the US. He then corrected me and said many states allow e calling for turkeys including CA, UT and NM. After I hung up, I went to the FOX PRO website and it appears only AZ, TX, NV and ME allow electronic calls for turkey hunting. NV has so few birds it hardly counts. You can hardly fart while hunting in CA so his assertion that CA allowed electronic calls did not ring true when he said this and the FOX PRO website refutes that. I seriously doubt CA has subsequently liberalized this law.

I'm pushing 70 and have been hunting turkeys over 40 years Spring, but also some in the Fall. I've been fortunate to live in AL, MS and SC where the bag limits have been high and the seasons long. I've been fortunate to have the means to travel and hunt many different states often on public land and rarely with a guide. I just need access to the birds. So I've killed literally hundreds of turkeys and called up innumerable gobblers for others. I have hunted either CO, AZ and /or NM most years  almost all on public land without a guide and certainly without feeders or an e caller. I've been pretty successful in that big wide open country including wilderness areas in NM and AZ.

I'm sure there are better turkey hunters and better turkey callers, but I can hold my own.

Direct quotes from the outfitter's web page are, "We focus on the total experience of the hunt. We believe it is more how you harvest a Gould's turkey than just getting your Gould's turkey."

I couldn't agree more with that statement.

The outfitter was decent to listen to our complaints. I think he absolutely wants his hunters to be successful and have a good experience.

I personally don't want to be stationed near or in sight of a feeder, use electronic calls or pay for a hunt where a gun was not always in my hand.

My point is and I told him this. He needs to be completely transparent about the hunt. I suspect if he reveals that much of the hunting revolves around feeders, electronic calls and that there may not be enough guns for each hunter on each hunt or that you could be on a 3:1 hunt or even more, that his bookings would drastically decrease. He told of taking out as many as 5 hunters to the same set up and multiple birds, I believe 5 going down. Maybe some of you are jazzed about that possibility. I'm not impressed.

If that's your cup of tea, go for it. We should have been much more assertive once we realized how things were to go. We weren't and that's again on us.

My advice is definitely to go for the Goulds if you can. It's beautiful country and those white tipped Goulds are gorgeous. However, ask lots of questions prior to the hunt so you absolutely know how the hunt will be conducted.

In fairness to the outfitter he has an excellent reputation. That is why I chose him for one last hurrah in MX. I'm not telling any of you who to use and who not to use. Just ask any outfitter many questions before you book so you come back satisfied. I do believe the outfitter when he said most of his hunters rave about their experience. It's just not how I hunt or want to hunt. It is indeed more important to me how I hunt than even the killing of the bird.

As to how he resolved or remedied our dissatisfaction, he and the guide listened to our complaints. No offer of a partial refund was made even though I asked for a refund for the portion of the hunt I didn't have a gun in an earlier email after returning. No offer was made for a future discounted hunt although I would have declined.

I'm not sure what the guide was referring to the night of the hunt when it was over when he said the outfitter was good about making things right and the guide told me that my friend, his son and I were the kind of people he would like to see back in camp next year.

I will not reveal the name of the outfitter as again his overall reputation is excellent and I did appreciate him taking the time to listen to our complaints.

Again, before you book any hunt ask lots of questions, some that you might think go without saying.

There's a reason I like to be my own outfitter and guide and after this I doubt I will ever pay for a hunt again.

[2flyfish4]

I haven't hunted goulds yet but have been on some hunts that weren't my cup of tea either. The worse part about it is when you look back at pictures or look at that tail fan, beard or spurs from that bird; more times than not you still have a bad taste in your mouth and almost start to resent holding onto those pictures or birds.

[Old Timer]

Ron I have never hunted Goulds but have been on numerous guided turkey hunts. It`s a love hate relationship. I usually hunt alone or with a very close friend we read each other like a book. One guide I had that also has a very good reputation did all the calling also telling me when to get the gun up. Although he worked hard and I was successful I found it confusing as I am not a novice. I did book another trip with his outfit in another state. The guide I had did call and at times I did my own thing. It went a lot smoother and we worked as a team like my good friend. We got a boss in to 42 yards and I chose not to shoot. I as you recommend to everyone ask a lot of questions. Do not let this bad experience keep you from booking  another hunt. Glad you enjoy the sport. Stay safe my friend.

[GobbleNut]

Sorry to hear about your trip, Ron.  I suspect there are a lot of us that have had similar experiences at one time or another,...and in a lot of different places.  Personally, I had a similar disaster on my last Osceola hunt.  Those kinds of trips certainly leave us with a bad taste in our mouths!  I appreciate you not wanting to name name's on an open forum, so I would suggest anybody that is considering going to Mexico might PM you about it. 

As for your experience, it is hard to believe that a reputable outfitter that knew anything about turkey hunting, and more specifically, about what most turkey hunters expect in a hunt of that type, would have had that kind of operation,...or have such a limited understanding of the ethical considerations involved.  If that guy has been outfitting turkey hunters down there for a while, it really makes me wonder what kind of hunters he has had in the past that there have not been more hunters like yourself speak up about him and/or to him.   

[zelmo1]

Guided hunts are a crap shoot and I am with you 100%, transparency is priority 1. I got hosed years back on my first guided hunt and I just recently booked a Florida trip for next year. The first time since "the incident". It doesnt sound like he " made it right" or was what he portrayed in his adds. I agree that all questions should be answered before you plop your $$ down. Sorry you had a bad experience brother. I hope you get a monster next hunt. Z

[Cowboy]

First off, I'm so sorry about the bad experience. This certainly makes me appreciate my DIY western trip for Merriam's couple weeks ago. I didn't bring home a gobbler but my brother did. So we basically had a 50% success rate. I'm sure that whole undisclosed portion left a bad taste in your mouth. I wasn't even there but it certainly did for me after reading your story. Again, sorry for your disappointment. Like you said, it's more HOW you hunt than the success rate. I agree 100%.   

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[Dtrkyman]

Why are guys so hesitant to name an outfitter?

Feeders and not enough guns are 100% unacceptable to me, e caller hard pass!

Help someone out and keep them from being taken by the same guy!

He lied to you about multiple things and offered no resolution. His reputation being excellent is hard to believe after that mess!

I have been a guide for over 20 years and even with a crappy outfit I have never seen a situation where someone didn't have a weapon to hunt with, crazy!

[joey46]

It took me three years of looking and PMs to finally find a Merriam hunt I was comfortable with for my first western hunt in 2022.  Trying to find someplace willing to unlock the gates, point you in the right direction, and turn you loose on your own wasn't easy.  It is the only "outfitter/ranch hunt I was interested in so I didn't compromise.  Still looking for a similar Rio hunt for next year.  If I can't walk at my own pace and do my own calling and sneaking around I'm not interested.  Seems to be far and few between anymore.  The turkey game is tough and getting tougher even for those willing to spend a few $$$.  I know I'm priced out of Mexican Goulds hunts but these hunts for any species where once reputable outfitters seem to be cutting corners can't be acceptable.

[RND1983]

Excellent post here! I hate that you had to endure this, but hopefully others can see value in this post. While there are many guys who want to kill no matter how you do it, most want to hunt with an outfitter who allows them to hunt how they want to. Unfortunately with Goulds turkeys, you are at the mercy of an outfitter. It is a once in a lifetime trip for many hunters. I couldn't imagine sitting over a feeder and having a "guide" use an electronic caller. What kind of outfit are you running if you are charging hunters $3,000/$4,000 and you do not have guides that can run a turkey call??? It does not sound like you need any help calling, but it is comical that you were told to purr only while they are blasting recorded hen sounds like it's a Metallica concert. The "guide" should have had you call first and then figured out quickly that you knew what you were doing and roll with it. The fact they expect you to hunt without a firearm is appalling. Expecting hunters to pass guns back and forth is a recipe for disaster.

I think most who have either hunted Goulds or are looking to hunt Goulds can figure out who this outfitter is. There aren't many out there. I'm sure there are some who have had different experiences, but yours sounds like a nightmare and was not turkey hunting.

Thank you for posting this. There are only facts and no opinions in your post. Hopefully this saves someone from making a poor decision at some point.

[joey46]

My oldest friend is a retired attorney.  He won't even give a product review on Amazon for fear of being sued for liable.  Your decision to not name the outfitter on a public forum is well understood.  Good luck in the future.

[Prospector]

I'm sorry for your experience but thank you for sharing. I have never paid for a hunt yet but this will help to educate me for when I do. Unfortunately I am reading and hearing about a lot of these type stories and I think I know why. Because there is a contingent of so called hunters who believe that " if I pay for it, I better be successful...". Now, I'm in no way taking up for the outfitter but his business is now mirroring the  reduction in ethics that makes up a (large) part of the hunting fraternity.

[Yoder409]

I really feel for you.  It plain sucks that you paid (a lot) of good money for a crappy experience like that.

I don't know who you went with.  But I DO KNOW who you DIDN'T go with, by the description of your hunt.

NOT all Gould's hunts involve feeders.  I only wish I could have had the opporrunity to talk to you BEFORE you booked.  I could have told you, irrefutably, who's the BEST.

[Greg Massey]

Regardless it sounds like a good learning experience for anyone thinking of going next year and what to look out for in booking a hunt ...

[PalmettoRon]

I really feel for you.  It plain sucks that you paid (a lot) of good money for a crappy experience like that.

I don't know who you went with.  But I DO KNOW who you DIDN'T go with, by the description of your hunt.

NOT all Gould's hunts involve feeders.  I only wish I could have had the opporrunity to talk to you BEFORE you booked.  I could have told you, irrefutably, who's the BEST.

Yoder, from my prior hunts in Mexico I absolutely know the feeder issue is NOT an issue with every outfitter as none of my multiple prior Goulds hunts involved me ever once encountering a feeder much less hunting on or near one. I changed outfitters for this trip based on the logistics of the hunt which I thought would be safer and less expensive.

I sure wish I had not changed. Hey, live and learn. You guys do your homework before going and you are unlikely to be disappointed.

[GobbleNut]

To offer some reassurance on anybody considering a Mexico Gould's adventure, I have gone several times myself and never had a problem...

Speaking generally about "outfitted" hunts, of which I have only gone on a couple here in the U.S. and only out of necessity, one thing I will be doing in the future if I do go again is to have my own "counter-contract" with the outfitter/guide if I have any uneasy feelings or reservations about the individual or agreement.  It will be a written document that stipulates what I am expecting, and would include such things as 1) no feeders involved (or at least no shooting over feeders), 2) no permanent/required blind hunting, 3) I do my own calling, 4) if a "guide" must accompany me, he will act only as a "chaperone", if necessary, to ensure I don't do anything nefarious (and otherwise basically stay out of the way), and 4) I will make all hunting decisions in terms of positioning, calling, and the like.

If the outfitter won't sign such a document, I am going elsewhere.  That requirement may mean I don't go hunting in a location, and that is fine by me.  I am done with verbal agreements/understandings with unsavory characters that tell you one thing and then do the opposite.  As Ol' George and The Who once said,..."Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice,...uhhh,...I won't get fooled again!"