What if?

[Shiloh]

What if the great decline and disappearance of turkeys from the landscape that has everyone so worked up is just Ma Nature doing her thing?  Turkeys are re stocked in a state, they explode to never before seen levels and over 20-30 years the population slowly and steadily dwindles back down to a level that is healthy.  I have had this thought for a while and recently talked to someone much more educated than myself who holds the possibility that this could be the case.  I think it's something to ponder. 

[arkrem870]

They've done it before. But the difference was high fur prices and less predators on the landscape. I think we will see up and down swings like we always have but I don't see many places returning to the glory days of the 90's

[guesswho]

Could be in some areas, but I doubt it.  Populations are well, and I mean well below the carrying capacity of the lands I frequent. 

[dzsmith]

Could be in some areas, but I doubt it.  Populations are well, and I mean well below the carrying capacity of the lands I frequent.

this ^^^ i dont expect to see birds roosted in the yard like my childhood, But there should be more than there is. easily twice as many, and that still wouldnt be carrying capacity IMO, which carries no weight. A lot of it is what has been mentioned, habitat has finally caught up with em....forcing the surviving populations into more limited areas....but there are areas, with respectable habitat...that have another issue. a bird cant gobble and not be heard by at least 5 plus adult men/avid hunters within 1 mile of it trying to kill it. if he gobbles, hes gone....so it shouldnt be as surprising as it is to many folks that you can kill all your turkeys.

[GobbleNut]

Although I agree with the "carrying capacity" theory that you outline above, I personally believe it is more complicated than that, and depends to a great degree on the species of animal involved, their adaptability to habitat types, and their resistance to all of the negative factors that come into play over time.  Those factors are numerous, complex, and interwoven,...but they can be overcome and reversed IF there is enough impetus to try to do so.  Simply stated, the evolutionary survival strategy of ground-nesting birds like the wild turkey is proving to be questionable under the conditions they must exist in many places in this country today, and we are only magnifying that issue with the pressure we humans are putting on them.

Unfortunately, in general, we live in a world where the importance of wild turkey populations is way down the list of priorities for the human population.  Carrying capacities for any species can be manipulated.  Look no further than to those private properties that are managed specifically for wild turkeys (or any other species) for the clear evidence of that. 

The point being that to just throw up our hands and accept that turkey populations are going to be limited because of that phenomenon of carrying capacity equilibrium is not necessarily set in stone.  Struggling turkey populations in this country can be restored.  Whether there is the willpower to do so is the real question. 

[Shiloh]

Just to be clear I'm not suggesting that we throw up our hands.  If people knew what we do on our own property to manage for turkeys they'd think we were fools.  I think we should do all that we can, but in the end wild game populations are going to ebb and flow.  In the early 90's it was like a ghost town here.  Something killed the population, but nobody knows what.  By the late 90's they were back.  Not like the 80's, but plenty.  Since that time it has been pretty good around here.  And just for clarification.....nobody was hammering coons here in the late 90's.  I bet your populations rebound in the next 4-5 years Ronnie.  I'm keeping my eyes on the hills of Arkansas.  Curious to see what happens there over time. 

[Old Gobbler]

Turkeys were shot into extinction in most states decades ago by overhunting , poaching , out of season and  allowing people to shoot hens ,shoot em of the roost , rifles ...over corn etc...

The state agencies trap and transplanted turkeys all over and they rebounded

40 years ago there were not too many turkey hunters , now there are way more ..they are way more skilled , they are way more better equipped...hence populations have declined

The popular belief.. is that populations took a hit on top of that because of COVID freeing up people to hunt more than normal and over pressure..of course took it's toll on populations

The only way out of this is ...regulations based solely on biological outcomes .. not finger pointing -

If a study indicated that there are no mature gobblers left to breed the hens ..then biological outcomes need to be calculated... several states have moved around the seasons to allow undisturbed breeding

If a study indicated that predators is damaging nesting success..then again a solution needs to occur

If a study indicates hunting pressure is too great then ..then a solution needs to be calculated...quotas etc. ...


Hunting pressure is significantly increased, not only from increased hunters but increased numbers of more skilled and better equipped hunters ..there is no denying it ..things have changed quite a bit in the last few decades

There will be hard to swallow changes nationwide in the future to correct the trend ...or the trend will continue....

we are at a fork in the road , to the left the sign says " keep doing what your doing and you'll keep getting what your getting". The sign on the right says " this way to fix the problem so we don't end up like 100 years ago"

Shannon

[Tom007]

I'm turning "Right", heading down that road......for the future....

[guesswho]

Just to be clear I'm not suggesting that we throw up our hands.  If people knew what we do on our own property to manage for turkeys they'd think we were fools.  I think we should do all that we can, but in the end wild game populations are going to ebb and flow.  In the early 90's it was like a ghost town here.  Something killed the population, but nobody knows what.  By the late 90's they were back.  Not like the 80's, but plenty.  Since that time it has been pretty good around here.  And just for clarification.....nobody was hammering coons here in the late 90's.  I bet your populations rebound in the next 4-5 years Ronnie.  I'm keeping my eyes on the hills of Arkansas.  Curious to see what happens there over time.

I hope you're right.   I will say I've seen a slight increase in the last couple years.   Seeing them in places I haven't seen them in about 10 years.   On a side note I just recently started trapping coons on the weekends.   I usually catch 2 or 3.   It's not much but I figure it's better than none.   

[Greg Massey]

I think we all know what is going on with the Wild Turkeys. Revenue, Man, habitat, predators, equipment, liberal bag limits at one time all of this played a part in the decline in the wild turkeys populations. Now it's our turn to try and fix it again, sure we are back doing scientific research and studies and looking at ways of fixing this problem. I think it's time to act, i feel over time we have done enough of these scientific studies / investigations. Let's take my home state of Tennessee so they have decided after the unprecedented years after Covid to decide to move the season opener back two weeks and add it to the tail end going into May, with a new 2 bag limit. Now you say WELL this is going to save turkeys and in turn it will discourage people from hunting and save some turkeys from being killed. NOT A smart move at all in my OPINION with how to save the turkeys for being killed. What they have done by moving the season back two weeks and putting it on the tail end going into May is putting people in the woods and disturbing the hens who are hatching and early born poults. I've seen poults on the first of May.  So again what scientific study was done to decide this was a good thing, I would like to see these so called research / studies. If truth is known this decision was all about politics and still trying to do WHAT generates REVENUE, it has nothing to do with saving the turkeys.  They should have kept the opener as always on the first of April, decrease the bag limit ( 2 ) gobblers, limit the number of out of state tags and decrease the number of days of the season and put a cutoff of 1:00 clock hunting  each day. IMO

[Shiloh]

Everyone has an opinion about it and only time will tell who is right or wrong.  One recurring thing that I am told is showing up in study after study is quality nesting habitat.  If hens have to travel long distances to nest the often get over stressed or killed.

some states have had near record hatches recently, so it's not all doom and gloom. 

I got some more I'd like to share, so maybe the thread will keep going.

[dzsmith]

Turkeys were shot into extinction in most states decades ago by overhunting , poaching , out of season and  allowing people to shoot hens ,shoot em of the roost , rifles ...over corn etc...

The state agencies trap and transplanted turkeys all over and they rebounded

40 years ago there were not too many turkey hunters , now there are way more ..they are way more skilled , they are way more better equipped...hence populations have declined

The popular belief.. is that populations took a hit on top of that because of COVID freeing up people to hunt more than normal and over pressure..of course took it's toll on populations

The only way out of this is ...regulations based solely on biological outcomes .. not finger pointing -

If a study indicated that there are no mature gobblers left to breed the hens ..then biological outcomes need to be calculated... several states have moved around the seasons to allow undisturbed breeding

If a study indicated that predators is damaging nesting success..then again a solution needs to occur

If a study indicates hunting pressure is too great then ..then a solution needs to be calculated...quotas etc. ...


Hunting pressure is significantly increased, not only from increased hunters but increased numbers of more skilled and better equipped hunters ..there is no denying it ..things have changed quite a bit in the last few decades

There will be hard to swallow changes nationwide in the future to correct the trend ...or the trend will continue....

we are at a fork in the road , to the left the sign says " keep doing what your doing and you'll keep getting what your getting". The sign on the right says " this way to fix the problem so we don't end up like 100 years ago"

Shannon

Probably the best explanation ive seen so far.....weve been here before because WE! have done it before. However "WE!" is never talked about. There is only one way out of this hole...

[ScottTaulbee]

I've said that from the get go, you go from having a few on the landscape, an explosion in population in those same areas, which leads to to many animals in the limited areas that can support them. It's the natural order of things.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TurkeyReaper69]

What if the great decline and disappearance of turkeys from the landscape that has everyone so worked up is just Ma Nature doing her thing?  Turkeys are re stocked in a state, they explode to never before seen levels and over 20-30 years the population slowly and steadily dwindles back down to a level that is healthy.  I have had this thought for a while and recently talked to someone much more educated than myself who holds the possibility that this could be the case.  I think it's something to ponder.

This is the case in many states. New England is one that comes to mind immediately.

[Cottonmouth]

The coyote population exploded in Nebraska around 2005. They turkey population then started to decline.  I do my part and shoot coyotes all I can. I shoot every coon and possum I see but I don't see much of a change. I wish everybody did their fair share of predator control. Habitat is not the issue here