Toxic seeds and turkeys

[Kylongspur88]

This is a topic on another forum. Thought I'd share the video here.

https://youtu.be/5rDDXbdVekI   

[GobbleNut]

The recent posts on neonics in another thread expressed this same concern, which I think is very valid.  Good video (been out a while).  Hopefully, this is being thoroughly investigated along with other ongoing research related to wild turkey declines. 

[5arraquiver]

This could very well (imho) be playing a major role in declining populations and overall health of our wildlife.  It would be interesting to know how much of these herbicides make it to the seed of the plants. Even if just trace amounts. Imagine how much corn is used for baiting turkeys and deer. The amount of corn used to bait has gone up Year over year.   There's usually a lot left over in the fields as well that gets eaten.  It could make Toms/hens sterile... or kill them.  The timeline adds up I think.  What does round up ready seed do to the wildlife?  I know the other factors play into the decline of turkeys but this needs more attention.

[GobbleNut]

This could very well (imho) be playing a major role in declining populations and overall health of our wildlife.  It would be interesting to know how much of these herbicides make it to the seed of the plants. Even if just trace amounts. Imagine how much corn is used for baiting turkeys and deer. The amount of corn used to bait has gone up Year over year.   There's usually a lot left over in the fields as well that gets eaten.  It could make Toms/hens sterile... or kill them.  The timeline adds up I think.  What does round up ready seed do to the wildlife?  I know the other factors play into the decline of turkeys but this needs more attention.

Totally agree on all counts.  However, looking at online information, it appears that folks are starting to get concerned enough that maybe some changes are on the horizon.  This issue applies to the impacts these agricultural/industrial products are having, not only on wild turkeys, but apparently on many other species, as well. 

It appears songbirds and pollinators, in particular, are taking a hit, too,...and those two probably attract a lot more attention in the general public's eyes than turkey hunter's concerns about turkeys.  In that regard, I have no doubt that somewhere down the line our concerns might be addressed.  The question is, how much damage will be done before we get to that point, and how long, if at all, will the recovery process take? 

[Sir-diealot]

I brought up this years ago when I first got here and thought I was going to get strung up. Glad to see it is being taken a little more serious now.

[Kylongspur88]

This could very well (imho) be playing a major role in declining populations and overall health of our wildlife.  It would be interesting to know how much of these herbicides make it to the seed of the plants. Even if just trace amounts. Imagine how much corn is used for baiting turkeys and deer. The amount of corn used to bait has gone up Year over year.   There's usually a lot left over in the fields as well that gets eaten.  It could make Toms/hens sterile... or kill them.  The timeline adds up I think.  What does round up ready seed do to the wildlife?  I know the other factors play into the decline of turkeys but this needs more attention.

I'm curious to know what seeds and saplings our fish and wildlife agency is currently using and whether they are planting seeds treated with neonics. The video said the toxins persist in soil for 3 years and it's more toxic than ddt. I see a FOIA request in Ky fish and wildlife's future.

[Meleagris gallopavo]

I got wrapped up in this discussion on here over a year ago.  From what I gather from the scientific literature, neonics have been associated with species diversity declines in prairie songbirds.  Basically the insect eaters dwindled while the seed eaters did better.  A study conducted on a small dove species showed that those fed higher doses had a reduced appetite which led to weight loss. 

Moving on to species related to turkeys, studies on quail fed diets of neonics were inconclusive.  In one study they could not find problems with quail embryo development, but did notice that some eggs from quail fed higher doses showed a small uptick in abnormal embryo development.  Studies on wild quail found no negative effects.  I found one study out of Canada that showed 9 out of 40 wild turkeys had detectable levels of neonics.

Basically what all this means is that smaller species can be negatively affected by neonics, especially the insectivores.  Since neonics target insects this makes sense.  Either there are fewer insects to eat or the birds that don't have a varied diet and only eat insects get higher concentrations of neonics in their systems and suffer from it.  The acute toxicity study on doves indicated that neonics act as an appetite suppressant.  Studies on quail basically showed either no effect or minimal effects.  The turkey study basically shows they found detectable levels (i.e. very low levels) in a low percentage of wild turkeys.

In my opinion, based on these studies, I don't think declining turkey populations can be laid at the feet of neonicotinoid seed treatments.  What makes a substance toxic is the dose and the size of the animal exposed to the toxin.  So a much higher dose is required to affect a wild turkey than say a quail or even more so a small songbird.  In the actual studies on toxicity, test birds had no other option than to eat food treated with neonics.  This is certainly not what happens in the wild.

Finding something wrong with neonics is the new "in thing" to go after with researchers, mainly because there's more grant money being offered to study it, and ALL the studies are focused on finding something negative about neonicotinoid use on non-target organisms.  It's kinda like watching the news, most things reported on are negative.  Saying neonicotinoids are anything like DDT is just wrong.  The word neonicotinoid basically means that these are new nicotine substances.  Nicotine is toxic at high enough levels, but literally every substance is toxic at higher than normal levels.  I have used nicotine to kill cockroaches in the lab, mainly because they are small and very low doses are required for mortality to occur.  DDT itself has a very low mammalian toxicity, and soldiers were literally bathed in it to control lice.  And no, DDT-treated soldiers didn't have problems later in life.  The only human-related issues may have been birth defects in developing fetuses from females with higher concentrations of DDT in their systems.  The main reason that DDT was discontinued was the accumulation of it in birds of prey that caused egg shells to crack easily.  The decline of the bald eagle was caused mostly by DDT.  DDT is not in the same chemical family as neonicotinoids.  But the stuff that used to be the best for controlling termites in houses was in the same chemical family as DDT, that chemical was chlordane.  The reason DDT and chlordane were so effective is that they persisted for a long time in the environment, thus killing insects longer.  When Richard Nixon formed the EPA, it was mainly due to the I'll-effects of DDT on our national symbol, the bald eagle.  The EPA now requires rigorous studies before a product is labeled for use in agriculture.  Sometimes the long term negative effects of chemical use are found despite this, but I don't think this applies to neonicotinoids.  Most of the problems blamed on neonicotinoid use are from acute (short term) exposure to bees or other animals. 

Haven't written one of these long posts in a while.  I won't make it a habit.


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[slicksbeagles1]

They ain't going to stop because it is cheaper way to control agriculture problems These folks don't care about wild Turkey until it effects the people that have deeper pockets than most outdoors men and women!

[Dtrkyman]

Poults surely thrive on insects, young ones are not terribly big.  I have absolutely no clue if neonics cause issues with turkey poults but would surely be interested in finding out.   

I think everyone likes to look for the smoking gun, and there likely isn't one, death by 1000 cuts I have heard several times and it may well be true.

I still believe habitat is king though.   

[Meleagris gallopavo]

Poults surely thrive on insects, young ones are not terribly big.  I have absolutely no clue if neonics cause issues with turkey poults but would surely be interested in finding out.   

I think everyone likes to look for the smoking gun, and there likely isn't one, death by 1000 cuts I have heard several times and it may well be true.

I still believe habitat is king though.

Agreed


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