Outfitters where you can get a Merriam and Rio on same hunt?

[slicksbeagles1]

Anyone have a recommendation for a outfitter where you can get a true Merriam and true Rio on the same hunt?

[GobbleNut]

Unless your outfitter is planning on taking you to two different locations that are 1) geographically isolated and which have turkey populations that have categorically been identified as "pure" representations of a particular subspecies, 2) most likely hundreds of miles apart, and 3) with no historical intermixing of subspecies, you are NOT going to get a pure representative of either subspecies through an outfitter or anybody else.  Any outfitter that claims otherwise is blowing smoke up your you-know-what.

The only exception to the above is if you have an instance where two subspecies have been introduced in an area very recently such that they have not had time to interbreed over a period of time.  The longer any two or more subspecies are in direct proximity to each other, the less likely they are to be pure representatives of those subspecies. 

I may be wrong, but I am not aware that the exception above exists in any single location anywhere in the country at this time.  Now if an outfitter tells a client that he is going to have them hunt in one location in the center of a pure subspecies and then fly you to another location with another historically-pure subspecies, then I'll buy that "you can kill two different subspecies with me" talk.  Otherwise, it is just a baseless claim from someone trying to take your money. 

[Pig]

Anyone have a recommendation for a outfitter where you can get a true Merriam and true Rio on the same hunt?

Cuz Strickland did a podcast with Jim Kuhn he owns The Roost lodge in Nebraska. He has both Merriams and Rios. Only problem is he's booked up in 2023 and 2024. Hope this helps


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[deathfoot]

Anyone have a recommendation for a outfitter where you can get a true Merriam and true Rio on the same hunt?

Cuz Strickland did a podcast with Jim Kuhn he owns The Roost lodge in Nebraska. He has both Merriams and Rios. Only problem is he's booked up in 2023 and 2024. Hope this helps


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Someone please correct me if I am wrong..but there are no pure Rio's in Nebraska, according to any maps I've seen showing subspecies ranges. They are all hybrids and Merriam's.

I only say that because if someone wanted to register a rio in Nebraska...would it count? I have a grand slam but I don't register my birds but some people do. And in this case, I'd hate to see someone think they had a Rio and it not count.

Curious as to other peoples take on this.

[Dtrkyman]

I have hunted Nebraska a lot!   Southern section is basically all "Rio's", northern areas have birds with both characteristic's.  Definitely killed a few I would say were Merriam's, short beards/spurs and that weak gobble!

Were they pure strain, highly unlikely but who cares, if it walks/quacks like a duck it's a duck!

We have had this debate dozens of times where I spent a lot of time there, some get all bent about it other's not so much.  I would say the percentage of birds that had the Merriam dominant gene was very low however, less than 10 percent.  They were easily Identifiable.

Far NW Nebraska will have "Merriam's" dominant genes I believe.

If you are a purist I agree with gobblenut, a single outfitter may have the places to get both, but you will travel.

If you are just trying fo a slam, NWTF would recognize a bird from Nebraska and you could get both.

Might be cool to try and kill a Merriam, Rio, and eastern in Nebraska.

If you really want to open a can of worms I have seen claims that the "rios" transplanted to nebraska were originally hybrids already!

Get out you DNA kit's I guess.

[GobbleNut]

It all makes for a good off-season discussion...   

To my knowledge, NWTF does not verify genetics on the submissions to their record book.  I have no doubt that many hybrid turkeys have been registered in the books as one or the other of a subspecies,...and especially from areas where they have been intermixed through transplants.  In reality, the NWTF provides some arbitrary boundaries as to what subspecies are where so that hunters can use that information as a guide as to what they might be hunting,...and as to what to subspecies to categorize a gobbler they might kill.  None of that information, in this day and age, relates to the purity of the subspecies found there.

Are there pure representatives of the two subspecies in Nebraska (and a lot of other places)?  Maybe so, but generally speaking at this point in time, a gobbler killed in a large part of Nebraska is most likely a hybrid.  The subspecies have just been mixed together for too long there without having any geographic barriers to prevent interbreeding. 

Bottom line is that the likelihood of someone killing a "true" representative of the Merriams or Rio Grande subspecies on a single, contiguous property in Nebraska is extremely remote.  In most instances, I believe, hunters look at their gobbler, make a judgement based on the coloration of the bird, and call it one or the other.  In reality, that is about the best we can do.   

[deathfoot]

To my knowledge, NWTF does not verify genetics on the submissions to their record book.  I have no doubt that many hybrid turkeys have been registered in the books as one or the other of a subspecies,...and especially from areas where they have been intermixed through transplants.  In reality, the NWTF provides some arbitrary boundaries as to what subspecies are where so that hunters can use that information as a guide as to what they might be hunting,...and as to what to subspecies to categorize a gobbler they might kill.  None of that information, in this day and age, relates to the purity of the subspecies found there.

Are there pure representatives of the two subspecies in Nebraska (and a lot of other places)?  Maybe so, but generally speaking at this point in time, a gobbler killed in a large part of Nebraska is most likely a hybrid.  The subspecies have just been mixed together for too long there without having any geographic barriers to prevent interbreeding. 

Bottom line is that the likelihood of someone killing a "true" representative of the Merriams or Rio Grande subspecies on a single, contiguous property in Nebraska is extremely remote.  In most instances, I believe, hunters look at their gobbler, make a judgement based on the coloration of the bird, and call it one or the other.  In reality, that is about the best we can do.   

Thank you for clarifying this as I had no idea how they recording them. Again, I don't register them. It's a personal thing for me and not a pat on the back thing. I just wanted to make sure someone could get what they wanted.

[GobbleNut]

This discussion reminds me of an encounter I had years ago while eating breakfast with some buddies in a little hole-in-the-wall restaurant in southern New Mexico during the turkey season.  A group of hunters from out of state were at the table next to us and we overheard them talking about the outfitter they had hired and how he had told them they could kill both a Merriam's gobbler and a Gould's gobbler on their hunt.  They were all excited about being able to do that,...until we told them "Uhhh, excuse us for interrupting, but there ain't no Gould's turkeys in these here parts". 

The nearest Gould's turkey to where they were hunting was roughly three hundred miles away,...not to mention that they were not allowed to be hunted in this state!  Moral of the story:  Don't necessarily believe what an outfitter tells you when booking a hunt.  It's best to do a little research,...and perhaps use a little bit of common sense.   

[huntineveryday]

I grew up in Southwest Nebraska, currently live in South Central Nebraska, and hunt all over the state. I've shot birds that had more merriam's characteristics in Southwest Nebraska, but most were more characteristic if Rio's. In the South Central part it's mostly Rio characteristics, but certainly have some with Eastern traits mixed in. Along the Platte in Central Nebraska more Eastern traits with some Rio. Sandhills, mostly Merriam traits with some Rio or Eastern, depending on where you're at.

My point being, I've hunted areas where we have shot two very different looking birds on the same section of ground, on the same weekend, in all of those areas. We grew up knowing those birds were all hybrids and the only place to get a true subspecies is a Merriam's from the Northwest corner of the state. It's possible to get three different subspecies hybrids in this state, but they're hybrids.

[slicksbeagles1]

Maybe in my original post I should have mentioned an outfitter than could do a pure merriam in one state and a pure rio in another state all in the same week

[Tail Feathers]

Maybe in my original post I should have mentioned an outfitter than could do a pure merriam in one state and a pure rio in another state all in the same week

Ramsey Russell with www.getducks.com may be able to help you with that.   

EDIT: Scratch that, I checked his site and he has no turkey hunts listed these days.  But if you want some good waterfowl hunts, he's a good source.

[Dtrkyman]

Damn Gobblenut I thought we were lined up fpr a Merriam's/Gould's combo this spring! 

[GobbleNut]

Damn Gobblenut I thought we were lined up fpr a Merriam's/Gould's combo this spring!

   I guess I'll have to find out who that outfitter was for us...   

[Crghss]

My suggestion, get a Nebraska guide for your Rio then head north to Black Hills for a DIY Merriam.

[deerhunt1988]

Anyone have a recommendation for a outfitter where you can get a true Merriam and true Rio on the same hunt?

Cuz Strickland did a podcast with Jim Kuhn he owns The Roost lodge in Nebraska. He has both Merriams and Rios. Only problem is he's booked up in 2023 and 2024. Hope this helps


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I immediately thought about Cuz's podcast when I read the thread title. I laughed so hard when he claimed they had both subspecies and showed his ignorance. I was grimacing at some things said. But of course if folks were giving me hunts or substantial discounts, I guess that's pretty good incentive to try to advertise for them to sell more hunts.