Elephant in the Room

[Neill_Prater]

Reading threads about Nebraska and Kansas limit being reduced as well as quotas on nonresidents. All well and good, but can anyone please explain to me why any wildlife department would take such drastic measures and still have a ridiculously long season?

Kansas is, for all practical purposes, open two full months including their early archery and disabled hunters season. Makes no sense to me. One of the most reliable ways to reduce harvest is to limit the season. Even more so in states that allow all day hunting.

Potential poachers, and I have no doubt they exist, are taking minimal risk of getting caught by simply not tagging a bird during the open season. Much less likely for that to happen when the season is not open at all. Especially true for residents so inclined, plus the fact that even a blind squirrel finds the occasional acorn. Spend enough days  in the field, and the likelihood of success goes way up.

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[ddturkeyhunter]

They know they are having problems with there numbers of turkeys, but don't know what or why for sure. There local hunters are there guarantee revenue and income. So by not cutting back on there opportunity (not changing season legnth) to hunt they will keep buying there license. Just blame it on nonresidents taking to many birds and hope that some how fixes it. Gets them a little more time to do some more studys before they have to cut the resident hunters next time.  I dont blame them for starting with the non-resident first, its there state.

[Neill_Prater]

I'm not blaming them for limiting nonresidents vs residents. That only makes sense.

I don't, however, agree that shortening the season would reduce permit sales, particularly with regards to residents. Stop and think. If your state cut it's season in half, would you still buy a tag? Sure you would.

It would, however, likely reduce the number of nonresidents applying for a permit because of possible travel conflicts.

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[762hunter]

Tn season has been cut 2 weeks


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[nativeks]

I'm not blaming them for limiting nonresidents vs residents. That only makes sense.

I don't, however, agree that shortening the season would reduce permit sales, particularly with regards to residents. Stop and think. If your state cut it's season in half, would you still buy a tag? Sure you would.

It would, however, likely reduce the number of nonresidents applying for a permit because of possible travel conflicts.

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I live in KS, and I didnt buy a tag last year. There are KDWP employees that haven't bought a tag in 3 years. We used to open the 2nd wednesday in April and run till May 15th. Then the archery hunters wanted it earlier and it became the fastest growing segment of the season. Then they wanted tourism money when all the other states close you could still come to KS. That was a stated reason. When they merged Tourism with Wildlife and Parks it killed us.

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[ddturkeyhunter]

I'm not blaming them for limiting nonresidents vs residents. That only makes sense.

I don't, however, agree that shortening the season would reduce permit sales, particularly with regards to residents. Stop and think. If your state cut it's season in half, would you still buy a tag? Sure you would.

It would, however, likely reduce the number of nonresidents applying for a permit because of possible travel conflicts.

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I agree with you on regards on shorting the season could have an effect on none residents buying tags. Wy Black Hills used to open at Same time as SD Black Hills until a few years ago. Now Wy opens later, we used to hunt SD and if fill out in first few days we Jump over to WY. Now with later opener we can't do that, or we have to hunt later in season if we want to do both states. So its just what you said, I was just saying they cut the non-residents first before trying something else. Most states are changing something in hopes it makes a difference.

[deathfoot]

I would say reducing the tags would be the biggest factor. As mentioned, poachers will exist regardless. Some in season, some out of season. So my thinking would be tags. I'll travel for one tag. Some people won't. I only need one tag when I travel. I'm not selfish but if you limit the overall tags, you limit how many are killed, regardless if the season is 2 weeks or 8.

Some residents only can hunt the weekends. So why punish them? Maybe it takes someone 5 weeks to kill a bird. After all, if they only hunt the weekend that's not many days they can hunt so if you shorten the season then they have much fewer days they go enjoy their sport.

For example...say my state Virginia limits the tags to 50,000. All are sold. 50% success rate would be 25,000 birds. Poachers gonna take an additional few thousand let's say. So we figure 30,000 birds in 5 weeks. But on the other hand...they sell the same amount of tags but limit the season to 3 weeks. Less success rate so the total kill may go down a few thousand. You're punishing the weekend hunter. So I would say do a good guess of population...have tags that will justify that and maybe tweak the season dates if the population is really hurting. Yes... It will hurt the outfitters...but it's better than the alternative of not being able to hunt the game we love.

So what I'm saying is, limit the tags if the population in the state is hurting. It'll reduce the nonresidents (not me because it isn't about the kill for me) and it'll keep the residents from over killing but won't reduce their time in the woods.  It won't stop the poachers...but nothing will. We as true turkey hunters will adapt and realize this is what is needed until the population recovers. This is a good debate btw. And this is just my opinion on it. I do believe each state needs to adapt to separate licensing for turkeys. Virginia does not. Buy a big game license and you get 3 tags. At some point, if things continue as they are, Virginia will need to adapt. As of now, Virginia has a good population but it isn't what it was 15 years ago and hopefully it doesn't get in dire straits before they figure it out. We will overcome, because we love our turkeys.

[deerhunt1988]

Yup, opportunity is the number one killer of turkey. If states are looking to limit harvest, one of the easiest ways is take away days of opportunity. BUT, taking away hunting opportunity comes with backlash. States don't want to upset their residents, so non-resident opportunity goes first. As it should. And in the case of Nebraska, in got the point where NR were killing more turkeys than residents! See data below:




Pretty crazy! They are effectively cutting 1/3 of NR permits. Not bad at all. I used to routinely hunt Nebraska but quit in late 2010s due to the crapshow public land had become, primarily from NR. Will this NR reduction cure Nebraska's turkey problems? Heck no. Will them lowering the limit to two for all do it? Nope. Will it help improve the quality of public land hunting? Definitely in a lot of areas!

I fully support Nebraska and Kansas's decision to limit NR. States are in charge of maintaining hunting quality for their residents, and this is one way to do it without upsetting residents. But I also agree with OP's assessment that taking days away from the season would save as many, if not MORE turkey. But that would upset some residents.

We will see slowly see more states follow. NR license sales have been on the rise about everywhere the past few years. As NR are displaced in one state, they will move to another. A monster has been created, and states will react accordingly. In the case of Nebraska, the state game and fish agency themselves are a lot to blame. Anyone remember the "COME TURKEY HUNT NEBRASKA! GET ONE MERRIAM'S, STAY FOR TWO MORE!" ads? Nebraska advertised the heck out of their Merriam's turkey and three bird limit. Looks like it worked!

[deerhunt1988]

Tn season has been cut 2 weeks


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Sort of correct. The season wasn't cut, just delayed. Same amount of days of hunting, you can just hunt through the end of May now. Another situation where a state didn't want to remove days of opportunity for fear of upsetting hunters.

[the Ward]

I am wondering if the bulk of non resident hunters are just folks who live on the borders and hunt
their state and the adjoining state due to proximity? Be interesting to see a breakdown on this.

[Cut N Run]

Seems to me that shortening the season by starting a week later allows more mature Toms to breed more hens, which helps accomplish the Wildlife Department's objective.  A shorter season definitely reduces the harvest numbers.

Jim

[Neill_Prater]

I think I look at this from a slightly different perspective because I am from Missouri. I love the long season in Kansas for selfish reasons because I have a minimum of 3 weeks to go after our season ends the first part of May. I also enjoy the all day hunting.   

That said, if you talk about not limiting residents hunting opportunities, just look at Missouri. Three week season, closes at 1:00 PM daylight savings time. Two bird limit, one bird only the first 7 days. Until the late 90's, can't recall the exact year, only 2 weeks, and for several years after I began hunting turkey in 1977, tags only good for 7 days each, so if you didn't score the first week, only one bird the second.

Makes it difficult to empathize with anyone who can hunt before sunrise to sunset and has a 45 day season if they should complain about loss of hunting opportunity from a reduced season. I understand the weekend hunter syndrome, but pretty tough to make that argument with all day hunting. Not many jobs that prevent going afield both morning and afternoon.

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[deathfoot]

I think I look at this from a slightly different perspective because I am from Missouri. I love the long season in Kansas for selfish reasons because I have a minimum of 3 weeks to go after our season ends the first part of May. I also enjoy the all day hunting.   

That said, if you talk about not limiting residents hunting opportunities, just look at Missouri. Three week season, closes at 1:00 PM daylight savings time. Two bird limit, one bird only the first 7 days. Until the late 90's, can't recall the exact year, only 2 weeks, and for several years after I began hunting turkey in 1977, tags only good for 7 days each, so if you didn't score the first week, only one bird the second.

Makes it difficult to empathize with anyone who can hunt before sunrise to sunset and has a 45 day season if they should complain about loss of hunting opportunity from a reduced season. I understand the weekend hunter syndrome, but pretty tough to make that argument with all day hunting. Not many jobs that prevent going afield both morning and afternoon.

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Very good points here. And all around. I'm hunting Northeast Missouri this year and when I saw the season I was surprised. 3 weeks until 1 pm. Virginia used to close at noon all season (still does the first half) so I'm used to the quitting at noon but the short season surprised me. I'm not complaining but that's the shortest season I think I've seen.

[husker]

As a Nebraska resident, I was very happy to see these changes made for the upcoming season.    A lot of fellow resident hunters were upset at the aggressive marketing tactics of Game & Parks.  We've been depleting the population for years.  I'm hopeful this is one step that will help us improve bird numbers in the coming years. 

[huntineveryday]

Nebraska did shorten the 2023 turkey season, it just happens to be with the fall season dates. Used to be Sept 15th-Jan 31st,  now it will run Oct 1st-Nov 30th. They shortened it by two and a half months! In fact, they cut back on pretty much everything except the spring season length. And all turkeys will need to be checked in with telecheck. That data could very likely shape discussions around season dates in the future.

As a Nebraska resident I'm happy with the changes so far. With previously declining turkey numbers and being the second year of a significant drought, my guess is that we are going to see more cuts over the next few years.