Anything bigger than #8s just ain’t worth it

[ChesterCopperpot]

Some posts recently (some about state limitations on shot size and others about the price of shells and stores only having #7 TSS) got me wondering at what point shot size negates the advantage and price of TSS. Yes, the higher density increases efficacy at all size but I think we'd all agree the advantage is a numbers game. So I got to thinking about numbers per ounce and here's what I've got. We'll start with #7s because that was in a recent post and because I can't imagine anyone buying or loading any TSS bigger than that for turkeys:

So for #7s, one ounce of copper plated lead like LongBeards you've got 278 pellets, with the old Hevi13 you had 256, and with TSS you've got 185. Most wouldn't push a lead load to #7s for efficacy reasons but as you can see the numbers game for TSS ain't good at that size. I'd personally rather shoot a load of lead #6s at 209 per ounce or even #5s at 161 per ounce than pay what you'd pay for five shells of TSS #7.

With #8s TSS gets to 254 per ounce. Again, that to me isn't a significant enough increase in pellet count to warrant the cost. I'd probably just shoot lead #6s at 209 per ounce and I'd much rather shoot the old Hevi13 #7s at about half the price of current TSS and at 256 per ounce. God I wish they still made Hevi13!

This brings me to this point, I think you have to get to #8.5s or smaller for the numbers game of TSS to warrant the cost. We won't get into the efficacy at distance because that's really another matter. At 40yds and under copper plated lead #6s, Hevi13 #7s, and any TSS is killing birds stone dead. All this to say, I don't even know why they're selling TSS #7s but I sure as the world wouldn't cough up $12 to $15 per shell for loads that offer little if any benefit at the ranges I kill turkeys.


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[greentrout]

Just making sense of cents. For the two birds I have shot in the woods I hunt, copper plated 6s did the same on bird #2 than the TSS did on bird #1. There's a time and place, and I am not against TSS, but people really need to pay attention to the details like you've laid out as opposed to just buying "snake oil"

[Old Timer]

The jury is still out for me. I have a Mossberg 835 and a Beretta 12 gauges both set up with lead. They do a respectable job. My Mossberg SA-20 I`m patterning with #8 tss. After i have seen those tiny holes I do not think I want to go smaller. This tss deal is new to me. I like the lightness of the gun at my age. But I am open to other load options. I like to call them in close the last bird I killed was about 12-15 paces. I`m in the testing phase now. I shall see where this ends up.

[ChesterCopperpot]

Just making sense of cents. For the two birds I have shot in the woods I hunt, copper plated 6s did the same on bird #2 than the TSS did on bird #1. There's a time and place, and I am not against TSS, but people really need to pay attention to the details like you've laid out as opposed to just buying "snake oil"

At #8.5 and smaller, there's a very real advantage, especially with sub gauges and smaller pay loads. A .410 shooting a load of TSS #10s with a greater pellet count than 2oz of copper plated lead #5s or #6s from a 12ga is a very very real advantage. But, in my opinion, you have to get to #8.5 for that advantage and cost to start making sense. I don't even know why they're making loads in TSS #7. That IS, as you put it, snake oil!


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[ChesterCopperpot]

The jury is still out for me. I have a Mossberg 835 and a Beretta 12 gauges both set up with lead. They do a respectable job. My Mossberg SA-20 I`m patterning with #8 tss. After i have seen those tiny holes I do not think I want to go smaller. This tss deal is new to me. I like the lightness of the gun at my age. But I am open to other load options. I like to call them in close the last bird I killed was about 12-15 paces. I`m in the testing phase now. I shall see where this ends up.

At close ranges, and really anything 40 and under, TSS #10s will WRECK a gobbler. The density is just so much greater. The efficacy of #9s extends well past that. Simplest way to understand the difference in density, bite down on a piece of lead from a shot up breast and then bite down on a piece of TSS (typically it ain't getting caught anyhow). The latter will have you in a dentist chair


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[Marc]

First off...  For the majority of birds many of us shoot, they probably would have died with cheap Walmart target loads...  I would not shoot, nor recommend hunting turkeys with them though...

I have not shot TSS, but the appeal is denser material maintaining downrange energy longer, and which also holds tighter more consistent patterns.

I have shot (and do shoot) Hevi-shot, and out of the same choke, 1 3/8 oz Hevi-shot had a higher pellet count in a 10 in circle than did my 2 oz turkey loads at the same 40 yards with the same choke (the Hevi-shot load has far few pellets in the shell than did the 2 oz lead load)...  That is what sold me on Hevi-shot over a decade ago; I assume we find similar results with TSS?

[Rapscallion Vermilion]

I don't even know why they're making loads in TSS #7. That IS, as you put it, snake oil!

I wonder if it was pure marketing, to appeal to the crowd that had become accustomed to, and comfortable with, heavyweight 7s, but might be skeptical of the 8s and 9s. 

[Old Timer]

  Wow my my head is really spinning now!

[PalmettoRon]

I have bit into TSS twice. The first time resulted in a new tooth and a lighter wallet. The second time, just a slight chip that the dentist wasn't concerned over.

I totally agree that it makes no sense to shoot #7 or #8 TSS. I chase birds all over the country. The last 2 years I've almost exclusively used a .410 or 28 with 9.5 TSS or a combo of 9.5 and 10. This setup is absolutely devastating at 40 yds and on paper probably even to 50 yds if I were to underestimate the distance.

I prefer 30-35 yds, but at 40yds if I do my job, the bird is dead. It is a joy to tote a subgauge gun. Yesterday, I walked 6.4 miles in search of a gobbling gobbler carrying my 28. It's so much nicer than the 12 from a weight standpoint.

I ran into a guy at a local sporting goods store getting ready to buy some #7 TSS for his 20 gauge for an upcoming trip  next month in SD. He was dubious, but I talked him out of it and into buying #9 TSS. I showed him a 40 yd pattern with #9.5 TSS on my phone. The density amazed him and sold him.

The dumbest thing I've seen lately was a guy telling me about using his goose #2 TSS to shoot turkeys.

[ChesterCopperpot]

I don't even know why they're making loads in TSS #7. That IS, as you put it, snake oil!

I wonder if it was pure marketing, to appeal to the crowd that had become accustomed to, and comfortable with, heavyweight 7s, but might be skeptical of the 8s and 9s.

It may also be a matter of appealing to consumers in states with shot size limitations. My point would be that in those states the regulations negate any reason for paying $12-$15 per shell. It just ain't worth it.

And, yes, I think you're also right about a hesitancy and skepticism of people with #9s and especially #10s (and I've seen #10.5s). That's evident in this thread. But you watch those #9s crush a few and you won't ever think that way again. At this point there's way too many dead gobblers from #9s and #10s to even think twice about it. It's absolute kryptonite.


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[ChesterCopperpot]

The dumbest thing I've seen lately was a guy telling me about using his goose #2 TSS to shoot turkeys.

I tell you one thing I would like to watch: I'd love to see what those Apex TSS predator loads would do to a coyote. I bet it would be devastating.


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[Hobbes]

I suspect that the #7 is intended for those in states with shot size limitations.  I agree that the greatest benefit of TSS is the number of shot in the smaller shot sizes.  My cut off is currently 8.5s that I hand load.  That's not necessarily because I'm opposed to#8s but because of a load/shot size combination discussion I had with the supplier.  The sad fact is that the majority of folks aren't digging into the details though and are mostly buying into TSS because it's marketed as long range ammo.   

[Rapscallion Vermilion]

I don't even know why they're making loads in TSS #7. That IS, as you put it, snake oil!

I wonder if it was pure marketing, to appeal to the crowd that had become accustomed to, and comfortable with, heavyweight 7s, but might be skeptical of the 8s and 9s.

It may also be a matter of appealing to consumers in states with shot size limitations. My point would be that in those states the regulations negate any reason for paying $12-$15 per shell. It just ain't worth it.

And, yes, I think you're also right about a hesitancy and skepticism of people with #9s and especially #10s (and I've seen #10.5s). That's evident in this thread. But you watch those #9s crush a few and you won't ever think that way again. At this point there's way too many dead gobblers from #9s and #10s to even think twice about it. It's absolute kryptonite.


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I agree that state shot restrictions are likely a factor.  But then they go and distribute those TSS 7s to numerous states that don't require them.  Federal should have just continued to make the 7s in 15 g/cc heavyweight.


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[2eagles]

At the present time Iowa restricts us to 8 & smaller. I'm not impressed with any 7tss, but have been happy with Hevi13 in my 20, but still restrict myself to  a 40 yard max. I only have a limited amount of Hevi left. A little arithmetic tells me I'm shooting about the same number of pellets down range as I was with my 12ga 3 1/2" load of 5's and they hit about as hard.
TWO COMMENTS-
Why even mention Hevi13 since it's not really available.
TSS is no worse on your teeth and steel shot for waterfowl.

[Hobbes]

I don't even know why they're making loads in TSS #7. That IS, as you put it, snake oil!

I wonder if it was pure marketing, to appeal to the crowd that had become accustomed to, and comfortable with, heavyweight 7s, but might be skeptical of the 8s and 9s.

It may also be a matter of appealing to consumers in states with shot size limitations. My point would be that in those states the regulations negate any reason for paying $12-$15 per shell. It just ain't worth it.

And, yes, I think you're also right about a hesitancy and skepticism of people with #9s and especially #10s (and I've seen #10.5s). That's evident in this thread. But you watch those #9s crush a few and you won't ever think that way again. At this point there's way too many dead gobblers from #9s and #10s to even think twice about it. It's absolute kryptonite.


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I agree that state shot restrictions are likely a factor.  But then they go and distribute those TSS 7s to numerous states that don't require them.  Federal should have just continued to make the 7s in 15 g/cc heavyweight.


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I don't know that it's federal doing the distributing as much as the stores doing the ordering.  The folks placing orders are likely ordering all ammunition for a store and may not have a clue.