How does weather affect the lek?

[Stoeger_bird]

It's something nobody ever heard of until Chamberlain went on the meateater podcast and now everyone uses it thinking they are biologist.

[ChesterCopperpot]

It's something nobody ever heard of until Chamberlain went on the meateater podcast and now everyone uses it thinking they are biologist.

Exploded leks aren't a behavioral phenomena specific to turkeys. But you can call it whatever you'd like—range, core area, it don't matter to me—my question remains the same.


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[ChesterCopperpot]

I think when they use the term exploded Lek it cover an area greater than what you can hear. Move to the perimeter of the the area you described and the exploded lek expands beyond that area as well. The Lek dont move as it encompasses an area far greater than what you are able to hear.

I think you're likely right about what may be happening, which is that the leks are large enough that each likely offers sufficient places of shelter. They are areas bigger than WE can hear, but if the population is good it's not an area bigger than what THEY can hear. It's deliberately within earshot.

What made me wonder this question specifically is in this particular area there's a lot of mature birds and they fight like cats and dogs. Those areas are tight largely because so much of the landscape is unusable. Boundary disputes are happening every day. I watch these birds yearround and every spring they set up in those same general areas with the dominant bird in the best spot and the subordinate birds bickering over the secondary locations around it. They are large areas but clustered tightly. What I wondered was if the boss's location offers the most sufficient shelter from a weather system and one of the subordinates doesn't have a place to ride it out does he venture into that territory knowing he'll likely get his brains knocked out? Does he say, "F**k it, Joe! I might get my a** whipped but it beats hell out of freezing to death!" Or does he ride it out as a matter of subordinance and an unwillingness to leave an area where he may very well have hens?


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[the Ward]

I learned something new today, I have never heard of "lek" or what it means. Interesting stuff.

[Paulmyr]

I would think the dominant gobbler would tolerate the presence of a subordinate as long as the sub minds his manners, even more so if the boss has ladies to tend too.

[ChesterCopperpot]

I learned something new today, I have never heard of "lek" or what it means. Interesting stuff.

Most people think grouse, but it ain't just grouse and it ain't just birds. There's fish use leks (what most anybody who fishes would call beds for bluegill in spring and summer, those are leks). Bugs. All kinds of animals that display for breeding use them. Exploded leks are just larger scale, bigger area; too big for eyesight but still a matter of earshot. I think exploded leks are specific to birds, but maybe not. Might be some other critter screams loud


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[Paulmyr]

It's something nobody ever heard of until Chamberlain went on the meateater podcast and now everyone uses it thinking they are biologist.

That right there is a valuable addition to this discussion. I'm patiently waiting for more wisdom and intellect like this.

[Hobbes]

It's something nobody ever heard of until Chamberlain went on the meateater podcast and now everyone uses it thinking they are biologist.

I'd say that's pretty accurate because I don't recall the term ever used to discuss hunting turkeys.  However it apparently does apply to turkeys even if it is rather loosely and only used by a few biologists.

Wikipedia isn't the best source but is usually the fastest:

A lek is an aggregation of male animals gathered to engage in competitive displays and courtship rituals, known as lekking, to entice visiting females which are surveying prospective partners with which to mate.[1] A lek can also indicate an available plot of space able to be utilized by displaying males to defend their own share of territory for the breeding season. A lekking species is characterised by male displays, strong female mate choice, and the conferring of indirect benefits to males and reduced costs to females. Although most prevalent among birds such as black grouse, lekking is also found in a wide range of vertebrates including some bony fish, amphibians, reptiles, and mammals, and arthropods including crustaceans and insects.

Armchair biology 101:

The displaying part and hens selecting a male is as far as it goes.  I've never witnessed a gobbler defending territory.  He'll wallop a bird that gets near a hen but he's not marking out boundaries like a coyote or defending a ridge.  I've also never witnessed weather making him leave hens or whatever core area he typically calls home except for snow that could push birds lower in elevation.  He will however, regardless of the idea that he gobbles and calls them in, follow those hens to hell and back if they take a mind to visit.  One thing that I know keeps him in an area is those hens.  As they establish a nest, they aren't straying too far from it, so he'll remain within the area that the hens use within some distance of their nest.

Hunting pressure is more likely to move him than anything in my opinion, but even then it's likely that he's just zipped it up instead of moved on.

[ChesterCopperpot]

Armchair biology 101:

The displaying part and hens selecting a male is as far as it goes.  I've never witnessed a gobbler defending territory.  He'll wallop a bird that gets near a hen but he's not marking out boundaries like a coyote or defending a ridge.  I've also never witnessed weather making him leave hens or whatever core area he typically calls home except for snow that could push birds lower in elevation.  He will however, regardless of the idea that he gobbles and calls them in, follow those hens to hell and back if they take a mind to visit.  One thing that I know keeps him in an area is those hens.  As they establish a nest, they aren't straying too far from it, so he'll remain within the area that the hens use within some distance of their nest.

Hunting pressure is more likely to move him than anything in my opinion, but even then it's likely that he's just zipped it up instead of moved on.

Again, you can call it anything you'd like. Anything that makes you happy. We all know what I'm talking about. Choose whatever term you want. Answer the question: will he leave hens and/or disregard subordinance as a result of extreme weather patterns? Temp dropped 50 degrees from two days ago, the wind is howling, and there's an inch of snow on the ground this morning. I'm at 3,500ft. It's opening day. If hens have established nesting areas and he's dead center, does he leave the hens to escape the weather?


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[Paulmyr]

Armchair biology 101:

The displaying part and hens selecting a male is as far as it goes.  I've never witnessed a gobbler defending territory.  He'll wallop a bird that gets near a hen but he's not marking out boundaries like a coyote or defending a ridge.  I've also never witnessed weather making him leave hens or whatever core area he typically calls home except for snow that could push birds lower in elevation.  He will however, regardless of the idea that he gobbles and calls them in, follow those hens to hell and back if they take a mind to visit.  One thing that I know keeps him in an area is those hens.  As they establish a nest, they aren't straying too far from it, so he'll remain within the area that the hens use within some distance of their nest.

Hunting pressure is more likely to move him than anything in my opinion, but even then it's likely that he's just zipped it up instead of moved on.

Again, you can call it anything you'd like. Anything that makes you happy. We all know what I'm talking about. Choose whatever term you want. Answer the question: will he leave hens and/or disregard subordinance as a result of extreme weather patterns? Temp dropped 50 degrees from two days ago, the wind is howling, and there's an inch of snow on the ground this morning. I'm at 3,500ft. It's opening day. If hens have established nesting areas and he's dead center, does he leave the hens to escape the weather?


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It would be my guess he wouldn't have to leave the hens as they would be looking for the same sheltered areas he would be looking for. He knows from past experience where these sheltered spots are for whatever weather is at hand and will either follow the hens or meet them there.

[Zobo]

I suppose I've not heard the term "exploded lek" when referring to turkeys.  I'm not saying that's not the correct term but turkeys definitely don't have a lek anything remotely similar to what a sharptail or sage grouse does.

I haven't heard of the term exploded Lek until recently. From what I understand, In theory the exploded Lek could encompass the whole of the Appalachian mountains or any other mountain range/geographical feature that holds turkey's during the breeding season. That's pretty large scale and I think the Exploded Lek can be narrowed down considerably. Imo the similarity with sharptail and sage grouse come from display/gobbling of turkey's to the display/cooing from the grouse trying to attract a mate and the fact that dominant birds choose the best positions within the Lek/exploded Lek to attract mates it's just the turkey Lek is on a much larger scale than that of the grouse.

In Chestercopperpot's example it's my opinion gobblers  that can hear each other have a pecking order with a dominant bird. That pecking order influences the behavior of the gobblers in the area. The Boss takes the best position depending on variables such as weather, elevation, visibility, food sources for hens, and so on. The best position may change from day to day, within the day, or it may stay static for a period of time. The subordinate gobblers adjust accordingly. The fact that every gobbler in Chester's example seems to have hens has nothing to with the pecking order established between gobblers. The pecking order only delineates the position of the Tom in the hierarchy between gobblers. The hens choose which tom they like the best not necessarily because he's biggest baddest bird in the flock, being the biggest baddest allows him the best position to display to hens thus attracting more hens to view his display allowing him to breed with more hens before they move off to breed with another gobbler. It may be with one of the surrounding toms or with a gobbler 3 miles away.

As an example, I hunted an area last spring. It was a creek bed in fairly flat terrain. I set up on a roosted gobbler and found he had hens with him. Soon after a murder of crows moved in and created quite the racket. Between the hens cutting and the crows cawing the Gobbler barely took a breath between gobbles. During this time I hear far off gobbles, maybe ¾'s of a mile away. Figuring my odds were zero to none on the Gobbler I was set up on I slowly made my way over to where I heard the distant gobbles.

By the time I reached the new area the gobbles had ceased. I crossed the creek, set up, and did some calling. It didn't take long for lone hen to reply. We got into a little back and forth and she crossed the creek coming towards me. A gobbler sounded off just out of sight to my right. It was on of them quiet gobbles and only one. The hen turned and headed his direction. Soon the woods were quiet again.

I sat for a while calling moderately in hopes of drawing a response from the Tom. Did the hen lead him away? I called more aggressively and heard a gobble in the distance in front of me. I kept up the aggressive calling and the gobbles got closer. At about 150yds the Gobbler hung up. Turns out there were 2 of them and they drew a line in sand. I kept calling to them as that's what got them going in the 1st place and they kept gobbling. I was thinking of the silent treatment when another sounded of to my left. He was far off but moving closer as I called. The 2 in front of me kept gobbling but not nearly as aggressively. The Tom to my right sounded of with a courtesy gobble. He had moved off to about 200 yds. He only gobbled on more time during this mix up.  Meanwhile the Gobbler to my left was close enough I could hear his drumming. I couldn't see him as he was  behind a slight rise that was 25yds  out. All the sudden behind me hens erupted in cutting. I threw it back at them and the 3 of them hopped the creek and yet another Tom sounds off behind them.  The original Gobbler and hens I set up on early that mourning. That makes 5 gobblers and 4 hens in close proximity to me that were in entirely different areas throughout the mourn until this point in time. The hens came across the creek but he would not budge and he was gobbling up a storm. The hens came up to the small rise between me and the drumming Gobbler, clearly the Boss. The hens cutt and looked for me for a few mins before moving away with the drumming Tom in tow.

The new arrival behind me kept ripping it up but would come no closer. The 2 out in front of me pretty much shut up when the hens showed up cutting. Finally I moved on him when I felt the hens and the boss were far enough to safely do so. It took some time to recross the creek and find a new set up. By this time he had moved off. When I finally got a response from him, he was 200yds away and heading back towards where he started the mourning. He responded 2 more times in short order and it started to rain. I could draw no more responses from him. He was out of there. The heavy drizzle took away one of his best tools for defense. I would need to find a more open area where he could use his eyes if I was to have luck calling him in. After waiting about ½ hour and getting soaking wet, I headed to the truck.
That was the second to the last day of the season may 29th. 5 gobblers from different areas converged on me. 3 of which had hens close or paying attention to them at some point in the mourning even though I was aware of only 4 hens. 3 of the hens interacted with 2 of the gobblers. Of the 5 gobblers there was only one boss. Earlier in the season it may not have happened that way as there would most likely be more hens to go around keeping the toms in their original areas.

My experience  hunting from Georgia to Mn and states in between over 30 years leads me to believe the behavior of turkey's in the exploded Lek are similar to what I've described above.


I'm getting tired of changing elk back to Lek. Stupid spell check!

AWESOME recounting and explanation of a fairly complex situation. Interesting thoughts.

[ChesterCopperpot]

It would be my guess he wouldn't have to leave the hens as they would be looking for the same sheltered areas he would be looking for. He knows from past experience where these sheltered spots are for whatever weather is at hand and will either follow the hens or meet them there.

You think the hens are leaving the area even after they've created a nest and are actively laying? Not on the nest, but visiting and laying daily? That seems to be the stage we're entering right now and that's what makes me think the hens are not going to go far regardless. I may be absolutely wrong (am a lot) and they may take off to weather the storm as well, but that's what made me believe he might have to consciously be leaving them behind to seek shelter and that's something I don't know whether he'd do or not.


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[Paulmyr]

It would be my guess he wouldn't have to leave the hens as they would be looking for the same sheltered areas he would be looking for. He knows from past experience where these sheltered spots are for whatever weather is at hand and will either follow the hens or meet them there.

You think the hens are leaving the area even after they've created a nest and are actively laying? Not on the nest, but visiting and laying daily? That seems to be the stage we're entering right now and that's what makes me think the hens are not going to go far regardless. I may be absolutely wrong (am a lot) and they may take off to weather the storm as well, but that's what made me believe he might have to consciously be leaving them behind to seek shelter and that's something I don't know whether he'd do or not.


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I guess that would be a matter of perspective when talking about hens leaving the area. Are they just hopping over the ridge to get to the lee side and out of the wind or does leaving the area mean traveling a mile or more to find sufficient shelter. I would think the core areas the turkeys are in would contain sheltered spots that allow for little movement when the weather gets tough. Turkeys only travel as far as they have to in order find what they need. If you a have diverse habitat  what turkeys need will not be too far away thus attracting more turkeys to the area. Habitat that lacks diversity may still hold turkeys but they will need to spend more energy to survive making these areas less suitable and less attractive. My guess is the area you speak of has plenty of what turkeys need to survive that's why they are there in good numbers from one year to the next.

[Paulmyr]

Case in point. Where I hunt in northern Mn has vast stands of mature forest. Oaks, maple, birch, Aspen, and so on. When I first started hunting up there I drooled over these stands of mature forest. I took a couple years for me to recognized these stands were only attractive to turkeys during certain times of the year and spring time wasn't one of them. The turkeys I found in the spring were always along the perimeter where the habitat was more diverse.

Now put a logged off area into one of the stands of timber and by the next season there would be a decent chance of turkeys using it in the spring. Add few areas of new growth in different stages and the area became even more attractive to turkeys.

[Hobbes]

You may not approve of my dislike of a term that barely applies (because it's not an accurate depiction) but I did go on to say that "no" turkeys aren't leaving an area altogether or leaving hens because the weather sucks.

That weather that you describe is not enough to make turkeys move completely from an area.