Thoughts and opinion on my TSS experience

[DMTJAGER]

Looking for the input from those that are more knowledgeable about 12ga 3" 1.75oz #7 Federal TSS than I am.

Last year about this time while sighting in my turkey guns, one of my fellow rifle club members I met at the range had several boxes of 12ga 3" Federal 1.75oz #7 TSS he asked me if I were interested in buying. I said not really as I had just bought a BUTT load of 12ga 3.5# 2oz #5 WLBXR shells and also had a goodly amount of 12ga 3" WLBXR shells as well and accordingly I had no intentions of using TSS at any point in the distant future.

He told me he had decided to go back to 12ga 3" WLBXR's and would I be interested in trading him some of my 12ga 3" WLBXR's for his Federal TSS, and I was very surprised when he offered me an even 10 for 10 swap. I replied that was rather unfair to him due to the Fed/TSS costing about 4x as much as the WLBXR's and I was willing for the sake of fairness to sell him a box of my 12ga 3" WLBXR's for what I paid for them.

He replied he'd rather do the trade as he had no plans on trying to re-sell the Fed/TSS shells.
I said OK as I don't have a great need for my 12ga 3" WLBXR shells.

I went to the range today for an all day 8am-5pm range session and decided to give the TSS shells a try.
After every turkey season I take my barrels off my guns, plug the muzzle end fill and soak over night with acetone then clean them using a nylon bore bush wrapped with 100% copper chore boy to remove the plastic was build up, then clean using my normal method, oil the bore with CLP and put away until time to check zero like I did today. I also remove the turkey chokes and submerge in acetone over night and clean same as my barrels.

Shot my go to old faithful dedicated turkey gun my 26" 12ga 3.5" 870 Supermag using WLBXR 2oz of #5 shot, it has a Carlson's AM choke designed to be specifically used with WLBXR and TSS shells and has given me better results than my Indian Creek choke.

It is topped with a 2moa Vortex Sparc II 1x22mm red dot. Placed target of a exact copy of a Tom's chest, neck and head with spine and brain included at LRF confirmed 55 yards. I have a 10 circle drawn around the turkey target with his head in the center. Fired and checked my results. One very, VERY dead tom with more than a dozen lethal hits in the spine and brain.
I shoot off of a Lead Sled DFT-II rest to mitigate the considerable recoil.

Then I tried the 12ga 3" Federal TSS with a 1.75oz load of #7 TSS new target also at 55 yards.
The results were awful in that only three hits in his head and none in his brain or spine, IMO wouldn't have killed a Tom.

Took another shot, essentially the same with no improvement in the pattern. I was rather shocked. I then pulled out and installed my Indian Creek Black Diamond choke and results were again about the same not nearly enough brain or spine hits to be considered a lethal shot.

I then tried again using my Benelli 12ga 3.5" Supernova one shot using a Indian Creek AM choke tube, one with the Benelli factory XTRA full turkey choke and one with a Carlson's AM WLBXR choke tube and results at 55 yards were not significantly better, certainly not a good enough pattern that I would actually shoot at a Tom at 55 yards with the TSS.

I had way to many other rifles and turkey guns to get zeroed to be able to give the situation any thought until I was done for the day. On the ride home I finally was able to think on what might have been the cause for the very poor performance of the Federal TSS.

I thought of only two possible causes.
#1 Federal 12ga 3" TSS shells do not pattern well if fired out of a 3.5" chamber
Or much more likely...............
#2 Federal 12ga 3"TSS  shells do not pattern well if using a Carlson's choke tube for WLBXR, a Indian Creek Black Diamond AM choke tube or a Benelli factory Xtra full turkey choke.
I'm sorry but I only know the Carlson's is a .660 ID and the indian Creek's ID is .665, don't know what the Benelli factory chokes ID is.

My best guess is the #7 TSS needs either a tighter or looser choke than between .660-.665.

Thought's?

[budtripp]

If you are zeroed with the longbeards the TSS may have a different point of impact. Shooting at a turkey head is almost useless because you can't see your whole pattern. Shoot at a big sheet of freezer paper and figure out what your pattern actually looks like. If its good and you want to use them, you may have to re-sight in for those shells. Not all shotguns shoot the same place with different shells. In fact,most don't.

[BandedSpur]

Well, the easy answer is that TSS 7s are not an appropriate shot size for shooting at turkeys. They have the energy to kill to 118 yards at the expense of a huge amount of pattern density. TSS 9s are a much better match for energy vs pattern density. Of course there are still states that haven't seen the light yet on what size TSS is appropriate and therefore legal to shoot, which may or may not be a concern for you. A 1.75 oz load of TSS 7s only contains 320 pellets, where the same weight of TSS 9s is 625. The 9s still have more than ample penetration ability to kill turkeys well beyond the range you specify.

[DMTJAGER]

If you are zeroed with the longbeards the TSS may have a different point of impact. Shooting at a turkey head is almost useless because you can't see your whole pattern. Shoot at a big sheet of freezer paper and figure out what your pattern actually looks like. If its good and you want to use them, you may have to re-sight in for those shells. Not all shotguns shoot the same place with different shells. In fact,most don't.

My apologies for not being more descriptive in my original post.

When ever I sight in or check the zero of my dedicated turkey guns I am also patterning them. LONG ago I bought a pack of three rolls of 3' wide by 100' long rolls of brown paper contractors use to lay down as a floor protector. I cut them in 3'x3' pieces determine and mark the center of each piece and then draw a 3" inner then 10" outer circle.

I learned a VERY hard lesson about failing to pattern your turkey gun my second turkey season WAAAAy back in 1985 an pattern my gun(s) every year since.

My personal standard by which I judge a Turkey shell to have acceptable performance is every shot it must consistently put a minimum of 10 pellets in the 3" circle. IMO and IME centered uniform pattern density is what best kills turkeys not just tight patterns in of themselves.

One of the perks of where I work is I have access to unlimited printer use both B&W as well as color copies, so taking advantage of this I have run off 100s and 100s of just different types of targets alone. Not the least of which is I have a lifetime's worth of life sized very like like color copies of a Tom turkey's head, neck and chest including anatomically correct depictions of the Toms brain and entire spinal column which are IMO, unmatched in indicating any particular Turkey shells likely potential effectiveness or ineffectiveness in killing a turkey at any given range but especially the maximum effective range of any turkey shell used in my guns.
 

I then sight my my guns POI for 40 yards, double checking POI at 25 and 50 yards. After I get my gun sighted in, I then use the above described Tom turkey targets to determine that shell in my guns maximum effective range is. Some might agree this is good others will not, but it is the way I do it.
This is how long ago I found out that both Active and Federal Turkey shells pattered absolutely horribly out of my gun but every dedicated Winchester Turkey shell did at least good enough.

I have determined the maximum effective range of both my 12ga 3.5" 870 SM and Supernova using Carlson's AM chike for #5 WLBXR's is 60 yards under the correct shot conditions of a stationary Tom and minimal wind.


When I patterned the #7 TSS at 55 yards out of two different guns and two different chokes the pattern on both the 3'x3' paper with 3" center and 10" outer circles was so sparse and widely dispersed I could not use the TSS shells to hunt at 55 yards with and the WLBXR's patterns were dramatically better and I would definitely do have every confidence in them to take shot at 55 yards.

Now I am NOT in any way shape or form trying to bash TSS shells or Tungsten shells. I have watched to many videos proving their utterly amazing performances at 50, 60 and even 70 yards so I know they do live up to their hype and outperform all other lead turkey shells.   

I am just wondering why they performed poorly out of both of my dedicated Turkey guns and asking those here who are far more experienced than I with TSS turkey shells if what I suspect and stated in my original post is the cause for the poor performance, that being:

#1 I'm shooting 3" shells from a 3.5" chamber which I admit is less likely than likely , or.......
#2 The more likely cause being a choke who's ID is either to small or to large.
I checked the ID of the Carlson's AM choke in my 870 is 0.660 the one in my Benelli SN is 0.650 if that can lend any help is determining if theses chokes are the wrong constriction for TSS.
But the Carlson's chokes are advertised as being for heavy shot as well.

[30_06]

I'm far from an expert so I won't speak on choke constriction. When I tried the Federal Heavyweight 7's with an Indian Creek choke and got bad results I was told the Indian Creek choke with the wad stripper was working against the Flitecontrol wad which is designed to stay with the pellets longer.
My patterns were good with Hevi-13 7's...so that might tell you it has been several years since this happened. I have since switched to TSS 9's with good results.

Esse quam videri

[BandedSpur]

I would also say that you are likely considerably overchoked for the TSS 7s. My Berettas (.722 bore) shoot TSS 9s best with a ST .675 choke. I have never shot any TSS 7s, but would assume that they would prefer a more open choke than my .675.

[lacire]

Every shot gun is different but I'd call Carlson's and ask there advice, since they have patterned thousands of loads they should be able to point you in the right direction, there in Kansas, (785) 626-3700

[Ranman]

I also think you are over choked. I would try something in the .675 constriction range. You can also contact Sumtoy. I bet he can recommend the right choke.

[DMTJAGER]

Thanks for all the replies. I was reasonably sure my issue is being over choked.

[Ranman]

Please give us an update once you get it tuned up..

[trkehunr93]

I bought the Carlson's TSS choke tube for my 835 last year and it patterned the Fed. 3" #9 TSS very well and patterned some 3.5" Fed HW 7's well also.  I know for the 835 the .675 diameter is good for that gun.  Keep us posted. 

[DMTJAGER]

Things are going to be on hold for a while as won't have much time off before my IL SWT hunt next month and then almost immediately both youth season in my home state fallowed by regular season SWT starts so all my off days in March i will be scouting and off days in April and May will be spent hunting.

As I do own a Mossberg 835 with both the factory turkey choke and as I bought it used it came with a Carlson's AM choke tube that both should be open enough to shoot TSS better than my Carlson's AM chokes I have in my Benelli SN and 870 SM.

Am going to take my sons shooting saturday to my private range so if it's not to crowded and busy will try out the 835 with TSS then, but saturdays and sundays tend to get busy there and I don't like to inconvenience my fellow shooters having to make the line go cold at some point after every shot I take as I must use my own homemade target holder. Yes my range has a rather ingenious system for target holding but they are concrete, permanently secured and unmovable below ground and  at 25, 50, 100 and 200 yards and I do all my turkey sighting in at beyond 25 but short of 50 yards. During January till April or when the temps are anything below 40*, if i go on my off days other than weekends (especially mondays) I have the range usually to myself.

What drove me to join a private range was mostly it cut my travel time and gas costs by more than half and what I save in fuel costs alone pays for my yearly membership. A huge factor is now that my sons are wanting to shoot quite often finds me at the range (indoor or outdoor) at least once a week, (and reloading EVERY week) add in I participate in the IDPA and small bore chapters at my rifle club and travel costs add up very quickly.

[BINK McCARTY]

Let me start off by saying kudos to you for using a big enough target!!! I too bought a roll of the painters paper to make into targets. However, I shoot at a 3" orange dot, then draw a 10" circle around the most dense portion of the pattern...to me, it allows me to find the core of the pattern, then center my shot. But sounds like you're essentially doing the same, just in a different order.
Far as the 7s go, as stated above I believe you're overchoked. Try a .670 or  .675, I think you will be more than surprised with the difference. That being said ,unless you have to by law, nix the 7s and go with 9s. The have more than enough energy to ethically harvest a bird at...well a long way out there. Also, my experience is 3" shells seem to pattern better than do the 3.5" shells and you just simply don't need the extra payload of TSS that a 3.5" has....not to mention the torture on the shoulder ! But every gun is different and the 3" won't always outperform the 3.5". I call TSS the great equalizer because it does pattern so much better than lead, retains more energy than lead, and the fact you can use less of it (benefits if you load your own)  I honestly believe 12 gauge & below that anymore than 2 ounces or even 1.75 ounces of TSS is just a waste. I do still hunt with my SBE 2, but most of the time I'm using my 20, 1 5/8 oz of 9s and getting 340s in the 10" @ 40 yds. Good luck to you, and keep us apprised of what you tests' .

[SureShotScott]

I agree with the above.  I would try opening up your constriction a bit. 

My brother and I both shoot the same model gun - A win 1300 12 ga.  I have an Indian Creek Choke in mine, and he just shoots a factory XF that came with the gun.  His gun patterns as well, or better than mine with his more open choke.  Both of us shoot TSS #9s.