The numbers don’t lie

[FLGobstopper]

 

I read in another thread that the number of turkey hunting licenses sold to people who live in Florida has been declining. At the same time, sales to out of state hunters has increased. Maybe they are losing places to hunt on private land and crowding onto public, but the recent increase there and elsewhere sure coincides with YouTube popularity.

I don't know this to be true. I think we have modest hunting license sale increases every year, but as a percentage of population it is decreasing. We have millions of people move here every year.

And we don't have much open public land to hunt in the southern part. Most is controlled by quotas. So it  is harder to get a permit but there aren't more hunters out there.

I hunt the non-permit WMA's. It's crazy, most don't come back. Took me a few years of trying till I settled in. And now with the explosion of ATV it's really nuts.

IMHO, NR licenses are increasing because everyone wants a slam. "Guides" lease land and sell hunts. But  there aren't huge numbers of NR hunters. The only thing a NR would want to hunt in FL is turkey. Nothing else.

Just because you don't see it in front of you doesn't mean it's not happening. Speaking as a FL resident turkey hunter FL most all of my life for the past 45 years and non-resident to other states... I can say it's seen and felt at home and across the boarders. However, there isn't enough data than I can find YET to validate some of the information.

I do agree with the above assessment the "slam" and also "The only thing a NR would want to hunt in FL is turkey." but, probably add alligators to that as well.

FFWC in my opinion and comparison to other states is not good at game harvest records and providing those numbers to the public. They're also not great at hunter records other than on check in WMA quota hunts. So, I'll just pose a question... how do you fulfill your mission of "Managing fish and wildlife resources for their long-term well-being and the benefit of people" when you don't have great data to guide you for either?

I'm still working on some of this but, I'll just give you some numbers I had to crunch from a search through the US National Fish & Wildlife Service data at https://www.fws.gov/wsfrprograms/subpages/licenseinfo/hunting.htm

Please also note that I cannot find where FFWC has this information made public (they should) and I'm doing my best to get this information and further break it down. I also want numbers regarding public land WMA's and quota hunt breakdowns as well. I'll keep y'all updated as I can.

FROM US FISH & WILDLIFE SERVICE
In year 2000, 2.02% of the Total Hunting Licences, Tags, Permits & Stamps was to Non-Residents.

In year 2010 it was 3.87% to Non-Residents
In year 2015 it was 4.15% to Non-Residents
In year 2017 it was 4.51% to Non-Residents
In year 2018 it was 5.47% to Non-Residents
In year 2019 it was 5.71% to Non-Residents
In year 2020 it was 6.17% to Non-Residents
In year 2021 6.81% was to Non-Residents

So, to summarize from this data between 2020 to 2021 we can make some observations ...

- the % of non-resident hunters in FL increased substantially
- the % of resident hunters FL decreased substantially
- the number of non-resident licenses, permits, stamps, etc has more than tripled from 2020 (6,511) to
  2021 (20,104)

If from the above statement, it's likely that a large portion of the non-residents are turkey hunters what do you think is happening?

Where are they all going? What happens when the public land resource is tapped? What happens when the private land resource is tapped? What happens to R3, hunter recruitment when there isn't much left to recruit to? When the resident hunters of the state are the main stake holders and they are all but pushed out and smothered who's going to be the advocates, allies and voices of accountability to the managers who are already tapped and unknowing of what's already going on?

[deerhunt1988]

If you want info on Florida turkey permit sales (resident and non-resident), WMA quota hunt applications, etc., submit a request for information at the following link:

https://myfwc.com/contact/public-records-requests/

I've compiled a tremendous amount of turkey data on Florida through the information they've provided me after I've made specific public records requests.

[SD_smith]

Must not be paying attention to all the trucks with Pinhoti stickers on the back windows with mountain bikes in the bed down in South Florida. The hunter pressure was high 5 years ago, but now it's ridiculous. Minimal impact though...

In all my years of hunting south Florida public land I've never seen a Pinhoti sticker on a truck.

Think going from 15 million to 21 million people in the last 10 years might have something to do with it?

In addition to almost no private land available since everyone leases now.

Websites like this one and Florida Sportsman have WAY more impact in increasing hunter numbers then youtubers. Everyone's gotta get there Osceola.

You're right that everyone has to get their osceola since they're only down here and nowhere else. Hence all the Pinhoti stickers on all the trucks from everywhere else that's not Florida. A true hunter is an observant hunter and you'd think you'd notice that, but who am I kidding.

I wonder how many hits this site gets daily compared to the videos? I doubt it's comparable. Please grace us with the facts oh wise one.


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[SD_smith]

I read in another thread that the number of turkey hunting licenses sold to people who live in Florida has been declining. At the same time, sales to out of state hunters has increased. Maybe they are losing places to hunt on private land and crowding onto public, but the recent increase there and elsewhere sure coincides with YouTube popularity.

I don't know this to be true. I think we have modest hunting license sale increases every year, but as a percentage of population it is decreasing. We have millions of people move here every year.

And we don't have much open public land to hunt in the southern part. Most is controlled by quotas. So it  is harder to get a permit but there aren't more hunters out there.

I hunt the non-permit WMA's. It's crazy, most don't come back. Took me a few years of trying till I settled in. And now with the explosion of ATV it's really nuts.

IMHO, NR licenses are increasing because everyone wants a slam. "Guides" lease land and sell hunts. But  there aren't huge numbers of NR hunters. The only thing a NR would want to hunt in FL is turkey. Nothing else.

Just because you don't see it in front of you doesn't mean it's not happening. Speaking as a FL resident turkey hunter FL most all of my life for the past 45 years and non-resident to other states... I can say it's seen and felt at home and across the boarders. However, there isn't enough data than I can find YET to validate some of the information.

I do agree with the above assessment the "slam" and also "The only thing a NR would want to hunt in FL is turkey." but, probably add alligators to that as well.

FFWC in my opinion and comparison to other states is not good at game harvest records and providing those numbers to the public. They're also not great at hunter records other than on check in WMA quota hunts. So, I'll just pose a question... how do you fulfill your mission of "Managing fish and wildlife resources for their long-term well-being and the benefit of people" when you don't have great data to guide you for either?

I'm still working on some of this but, I'll just give you some numbers I had to crunch from a search through the US National Fish & Wildlife Service data at https://www.fws.gov/wsfrprograms/subpages/licenseinfo/hunting.htm

Please also note that I cannot find where FFWC has this information made public (they should) and I'm doing my best to get this information and further break it down. I also want numbers regarding public land WMA's and quota hunt breakdowns as well. I'll keep y'all updated as I can.

FROM US FISH & WILDLIFE SERVICE
In year 2000, 2.02% of the Total Hunting Licences, Tags, Permits & Stamps was to Non-Residents.

In year 2010 it was 3.87% to Non-Residents
In year 2015 it was 4.15% to Non-Residents
In year 2017 it was 4.51% to Non-Residents
In year 2018 it was 5.47% to Non-Residents
In year 2019 it was 5.71% to Non-Residents
In year 2020 it was 6.17% to Non-Residents
In year 2021 6.81% was to Non-Residents

So, to summarize from this data between 2020 to 2021 we can make some observations ...

- the % of non-resident hunters in FL increased substantially
- the % of resident hunters FL decreased substantially
- the number of non-resident licenses, permits, stamps, etc has more than tripled from 2020 (6,511) to
  2021 (20,104)

If from the above statement, it's likely that a large portion of the non-residents are turkey hunters what do you think is happening?

Where are they all going? What happens when the public land resource is tapped? What happens when the private land resource is tapped? What happens to R3, hunter recruitment when there isn't much left to recruit to? When the resident hunters of the state are the main stake holders and they are all but pushed out and smothered who's going to be the advocates, allies and voices of accountability to the managers who are already tapped and unknowing of what's already going on?

Thanks for the data and breakdown!


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[Crghss]

You're right that everyone has to get their osceola since they're only down here and nowhere else. Hence all the Pinhoti stickers on all the trucks from everywhere else that's not Florida. A true hunter is an observant hunter and you'd think you'd notice that, but who am I kidding.

So a true hunter goes around checking for Pinhoti stickers on all the trucks from everywhere else that's not Florida? OK, you got me. I'm not a true hunter. Guess I'll have stick with looking for turkeys.

[SD_smith]

You're right that everyone has to get their osceola since they're only down here and nowhere else. Hence all the Pinhoti stickers on all the trucks from everywhere else that's not Florida. A true hunter is an observant hunter and you'd think you'd notice that, but who am I kidding.

So a true hunter goes around checking for Pinhoti stickers on all the trucks from everywhere else that's not Florida? OK, you got me. I'm not a true hunter. Guess I'll have stick with looking for turkeys.

I'd wager you don't see many of those either


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[Sungrazer]

I just had a brilliant idea, let's declare turkeys a public menace and kill them all. when we've extirpated them wildlife agencies will no longer have to worry about us troublesome turkey hunters and they can spend the money on office parties. Oh wait, no hunters equals no money, oh well Uncle Joe in the big house will executive order them some. 

Idiocy seems to be the theme of government management anymore. For years we insisted our youth get a college education, but we never bothered to do something about the liberal socialist agenda being pushed in our universities. This is "woke" wildlife management. The pendulum swings right to left and back again, how far it swings is a matter of what is in it's way. If we don't resist we shouldn't complain how far it goes. Our voice is never louder then when we vote. I became disappointed in both the NRA and NWTF, but this may well be the time we need a unified voice. If all who dropped off would rejoin and insist on better management we could be a feared voice again, Or find a new organization. It appears to me they don't listen to their constituents as much anymore in our state and Federal government. They all want to be the next messiah of man-kind. I have bad news for them, there is only one God and it ain't them.

AMEN BROTHER

[Crghss]

I'd wager you don't see many of those either

A fool and his money are soon parted

[cwedding]

Further information obtained:

1) GA paid 1 influencer $23,000

2) TN paid an influencer at least $10,000 ("The TWRA Agency's Portion was $10,000"). Apparently the rest would have been paid through a different branch. I am trying to find the numbers on the rest of the money.

3) TWRA seems pretty hacked off at me at this point, but I don't really care.

[El Pavo Grande]

Further information obtained:

1) GA paid 1 influencer $23,000

2) TN paid an influencer at least $10,000 ("The TWRA Agency's Portion was $10,000"). Apparently the rest would have been paid through a different branch. I am trying to find the numbers on the rest of the money.

3) TWRA seems pretty hacked off at me at this point, but I don't really care.

Ruffled their feathers....oh well.  Such ignorance on their part needs do be called out. 

So, I guess the argument is debunked that the TWRA probably didn't even know about it, and that the Tennessee Department of Tourism was to blame instead.  I'd think they don't give up $10,000 without knowing it.   

Georgia hunters shouldn't be too happy I wouldn't think.  $23,000 investment to take opportunity away.

It's still hard to comprehend knowing that they understand the current state and trends of population levels in these states and across the entire South East.   

[WV Flopper]

FROM US FISH & WILDLIFE SERVICE
In year 2000, 2.02% of the Total Hunting Licences, Tags, Permits & Stamps was to Non-Residents.

In year 2010 it was 3.87% to Non-Residents
In year 2015 it was 4.15% to Non-Residents
In year 2017 it was 4.51% to Non-Residents
In year 2018 it was 5.47% to Non-Residents
In year 2019 it was 5.71% to Non-Residents
In year 2020 it was 6.17% to Non-Residents
In year 2021 6.81% was to Non-Residents

So, to summarize from this data between 2020 to 2021 we can make some observations ...

- the % of non-resident hunters in FL increased substantially
- the % of resident hunters FL decreased substantially
- the number of non-resident licenses, permits, stamps, etc has more than tripled from 2020 (6,511) to
  2021 (20,104)

Is this a typo? The totals of 2020@ 6511 and 2021@20104 do not line up with the above data provided. It did more than triple from 2000 to 2021. Not by 300% from 2020 to 2021. At .64% increase from 2020 to 2021 to equate to 13593 new non res license sales that would mean FL would have to sell somewhere around 2,750,000 licenses?

Holy cow, I am glad I hunt private in Florida. I would be afraid to trip over someone, if I could find a place to park.

Lots of retirees moved to Fl every year and become residents as well. How many of those new residents go out and buy one if any number of these fish and wildlife licenses?

I do not believe these numbers are true by any means representing Non residents turkey hunters alone.

As you pointed out, res license sales are decreasing. If NonRes license sale stay the same yearly while res sales go down, non res % of sale will increase while staying the same number overall. Simple math.

[WV Flopper]

While turkey hunting I don't ride around checking out bumper stickers either. I leave that for the trip to and from.


I come to kill turkeys

[SD_smith]

While turkey hunting I don't ride around checking out bumper stickers either. I leave that for the trip to and from.


I come to kill turkeys

Had to validate your self-worth....


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