The numbers don’t lie

[guesswho]

I haven't looked at this in a while now.   8 pages now.   What's the score?

[Turkeyman]

I think there's something we all can agree on: In your chosen hunting area a bird gobbles. 1) You are the only one to hear that bird and position on him to call. 2) Five other guys hear him and do the same. You're some kind of idiot if you choose scenario 2. Increased hunting pressure whether it be due to YouTube, FB, Instagram, word of mouth...and forums such as this...or whatever, taxes the resource...whether private or public ground. The resource can only take so much "taxation". Plus the "art" of turkey hunting has been so publicized and commercialized that any novice with some woodsmanship skills can hit the woods running. Back in the day it took a decent hunter several years to become a good turkey hunter. It ere what it ere...no going back.

[El Pavo Grande]

I haven't looked at this in a while now.   8 pages now.   What's the score?

You pushed it to 9 by the way. 

You're guess is as good as mine, but one side of this debate has offered little more than the canned statements below. 

*It's a sign of the times.  Accept it.
*Public land has always been crowded.  Be creative.  Accept it. 
*Your jealous and envious. 
*There are negatives, BUT.....

You be the judge. 

[guesswho]

Dang, I did take it to nine.   Just glancing through the previous 8 pages I'd say the non youtubers have built up a significant lead over the youtubers.

[Shiloh]

Yep.....all the turkey problems are solved Ronnie.  Quit telling the state you are in and all is well;)

[Gentry]

I think there's something we all can agree on: In your chosen hunting area a bird gobbles. 1) You are the only one to hear that bird and position on him to call. 2) Five other guys hear him and do the same. You're some kind of idiot if you choose scenario 2. Increased hunting pressure whether it be due to YouTube, FB, Instagram, word of mouth...and forums such as this...or whatever, taxes the resource...whether private or public ground. The resource can only take so much "taxation". Plus the "art" of turkey hunting has been so publicized and commercialized that any novice with some woodsmanship skills can hit the woods running. Back in the day it took a decent hunter several years to become a good turkey hunter. It ere what it ere...no going back.

This is one of the best if not the best reply of this thread. It's definitely not just the YouTube boys, they just happen to be the whipping boys at the moment. Social media as a whole is responsible for the out of control snowball effect that we are seeing. With no apparent way to stop it. We have all used it for gain and it has backfired on us!
I also think states running full page advertisements in magazines was a poor idea on their part. I feel they do it for monetary gain with little or no regard for the resource. I know for certain Nebraska, Kansas, and Mississippi has advertised their turkey hunting and I'm sure there are others. Mississippi used to run a full page ad in the Louisiana Sportsman magazine every year around February and open their season up 2 weeks before any state with the exception of Florida. Wonder why they do that?

I would like to ask a question. Does anyone think we would still be seeing the population decline we are seeing IF social media lets just say never was invented? Or our we still gonna blame lack of trapping?


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[fallhnt]

^^^^^yes

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[Howie g]

Some good post for sure .  Gentry , I still feel like the lack of trapping is part of the population decline in my area .  But it's just a small part . Most of the gobbler population is dying from lead poison , well nowadays tss poison !  Turkey hunting has become a fad , and social media has caused a big percentage of it .
Ps , I don't know how many of you fellas travel deer hunt also ? But I've noticed a huge increase in traveling bow hunters also on public ground . The you tubers are showing you how and where to go . They tell you just walk in further then the crowd ,   Well , the "crowd " is growing !! And lots of em can and will walk in just as far as you can .   

[GobbleNut]

I think there's something we all can agree on: . Increased hunting pressure whether it be due to YouTube, FB, Instagram, word of mouth...and forums such as this...or whatever, taxes the resource...whether private or public ground. The resource can only take so much "taxation". Plus the "art" of turkey hunting has been so publicized and commercialized that any novice with some woodsmanship skills can hit the woods running. Back in the day it took a decent hunter several years to become a good turkey hunter. It ere what it ere...no going back.

It's definitely not just the YouTube boys, they just happen to be the whipping boys at the moment. Social media as a whole is responsible for the out of control snowball effect that we are seeing. With no apparent way to stop it. We have all used it for gain and it has backfired on us!

Most of the gobbler population is dying from lead poison , well nowadays tss poison !  Turkey hunting has become a fad , and social media has caused a big percentage of it .

I would like to ask a question. Does anyone think we would still be seeing the population decline we are seeing IF social media lets just say never was invented? Or our we still gonna blame lack of trapping?

I think this combination of comments sums up where things are. 
To directly answer the question asked:  Yes, turkey numbers are declining as a result of factors unrelated to hunting that are suppressing reproductive success.  However, that problem is accelerated by hunting in that hunters are killing mostly adult turkeys that ultimately are essential to the recovery of turkey numbers in areas of decline. Without population recruitment, gobbler numbers are gradually being thinned out by the increasing hunter numbers.  (The math involved in that theory should be pretty clear.  However, the entire equation revolves around solving the reproduction problems that are not hunting-related)

More hunters are choosing to turkey hunt due to the impacts of social media in all forms.  However, it should also be noted that spring gobbler hunting checks a lot of the boxes as to what a lot of folks look for in hunting.  Part of the problem lies in the fact spring gobbler hunting is just a very attractive form of hunting. (i.e....people try it, see how much fun it is, and naturally want to do more of it)

All of the above leads to only one conclusion:  Until the problem of reproductive failure is solved, wildlife managers have no choice but to conserve turkey numbers through decreases in harvest rates.  The only other option is to plan for supplementation of turkey numbers through "trap and transfer" programs (as has been pointed out several times in past discussions).

Prediction:  Under the current situation, we should expect continued decreases in season lengths and bag limits (which, admittedly, without solving the reproduction problems will do little long-term good).  In addition, expect public land hunting to be controlled by increasingly making public land areas "draw hunts".  Also, as the out-of-state hunting interest continues to climb, expect nonresident permit numbers to be limited, and for those to either be issued on a first-come, first-served basis, or more likely, though drawings as well. 

...At least, that's the view from here.... 

[Greg Massey]

Looks like all these Youtube hunters need to stick with hog hunting in the future .. how bow and gun will travel.. 

[hotspur]

I think there's something we all can agree on: . Increased hunting pressure whether it be due to YouTube, FB, Instagram, word of mouth...and forums such as this...or whatever, taxes the resource...whether private or public ground. The resource can only take so much "taxation". Plus the "art" of turkey hunting has been so publicized and commercialized that any novice with some woodsmanship skills can hit the woods running. Back in the day it took a decent hunter several years to become a good turkey hunter. It ere what it ere...no going back.

It's definitely not just the YouTube boys, they just happen to be the whipping boys at the moment. Social media as a whole is responsible for the out of control snowball effect that we are seeing. With no apparent way to stop it. We have all used it for gain and it has backfired on us!

Most of the gobbler population is dying from lead poison , well nowadays tss poison !  Turkey hunting has become a fad , and social media has caused a big percentage of it .

I would like to ask a question. Does anyone think we would still be seeing the population decline we are seeing IF social media lets just say never was invented? Or our we still gonna blame lack of trapping?

I think this combination of comments sums up where things are. 
To directly answer the question asked:  Yes, turkey numbers are declining as a result of factors unrelated to hunting that are suppressing reproductive success.  However, that problem is accelerated by hunting in that hunters are killing mostly adult turkeys that ultimately are essential to the recovery of turkey numbers in areas of decline. Without population recruitment, gobbler numbers are gradually being thinned out by the increasing hunter numbers.  (The math involved in that theory should be pretty clear.  However, the entire equation revolves around solving the reproduction problems that are not hunting-related)

More hunters are choosing to turkey hunt due to the impacts of social media in all forms.  However, it should also be noted that spring gobbler hunting checks a lot of the boxes as to what a lot of folks look for in hunting.  Part of the problem lies in the fact spring gobbler hunting is just a very attractive form of hunting. (i.e....people try it, see how much fun it is, and naturally want to do more of it)

All of the above leads to only one conclusion:  Until the problem of reproductive failure is solved, wildlife managers have no choice but to conserve turkey numbers through decreases in harvest rates.  The only other option is to plan for supplementation of turkey numbers through "trap and transfer" programs (as has been pointed out several times in past discussions).

Prediction:  Under the current situation, we should expect continued decreases in season lengths and bag limits (which, admittedly, without solving the reproduction problems will do little long-term good).  In addition, expect public land hunting to be controlled by increasingly making public land areas "draw hunts".  Also, as the out-of-state hunting interest continues to climb, expect nonresident permit numbers to be limited, and for those to either be issued on a first-come, first-served basis, or more likely, though drawings as well. 

...At least, that's the view from here.... 

Mr. Jordan from the book " the wild turkey and it's hunting" was ahead of his time.  In his  book he sead hunters must leave at least one " gobbling turkey " behind to insure your future hunting.

[Chase0311]

Will banning these groups from filming hunts on PUBLIC land, groups who are all directly making money off of the videos as well as merchandise sales, etc, be the next step taken by these states?

I have a hard time understanding why the hunting public or pinhotti project should be allowed to profit off a public resource that is obviously struggling nationwide? And don't give me the line we need more turkey hunters line. The data has shown that is simply not true.

[Crghss]

Will banning these groups from filming hunts on PUBLIC land, groups who are all directly making money off of the videos as well as merchandise sales, etc, be the next step taken by these states?

I have a hard time understanding why the hunting public or pinhotti project should be allowed to profit off a public resource that is obviously struggling nationwide? And don't give me the line we need more turkey hunters line. The data has shown that is simply not true.

Well there is that 1st amendment of the constitution thing.

[Jimspur]

Will banning these groups from filming hunts on PUBLIC land, groups who are all directly making money off of the videos as well as merchandise sales, etc, be the next step taken by these states?

I have a hard time understanding why the hunting public or pinhotti project should be allowed to profit off a public resource that is obviously struggling nationwide? And don't give me the line we need more turkey hunters line. The data has shown that is simply not true.

Well there is that 1st amendment of the constitution thing.

Hey Crghss - I don't know if you are aware of this or not, but Missouri
is charging $500 per day for commercial videography on MDC public lands.
This went into effect on July 1st, 2021.
I don't know how to post a link, but you can put
"Missouri $500 per day commercial videography" into your search engine
and read about it.
This would definitely apply to YouTubers when you read the MDC's
definition of commercial videographers.
Will be interesting to see if other states follow their lead.

[catman529]

Will banning these groups from filming hunts on PUBLIC land, groups who are all directly making money off of the videos as well as merchandise sales, etc, be the next step taken by these states?

I have a hard time understanding why the hunting public or pinhotti project should be allowed to profit off a public resource that is obviously struggling nationwide? And don't give me the line we need more turkey hunters line. The data has shown that is simply not true.

Well there is that 1st amendment of the constitution thing.

Hey Crghss - I don't know if you are aware of this or not, but Missouri
is charging $500 per day for commercial videography on public lands.
This went into effect on July 1st, 2021.
I don't know how to post a link, but you can put
"Missouri $500 per day commercial videography" into your search engine
and read about it.
This would definitely apply to YouTubers when you read the MDC's
definition of commercial videographers.
Will be interesting to see if other states follow their lead.

MDC previously did not allow commercial filming on their lands. Now they do, but with a pretty steep fee. As for federal lands, look up Price vs Barr.... judge said commercial filming permits on federal lands are unconstitutional.


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