Oklahoma regulation changes proposal

[AndyN]

Well, if you support hunting moving a toward a more Democratic/Liberal approach, I don't guess there is a thing wrong with "spreading the wealth". Such a small percentage of hunters actually kill 3 birds in states that allow it, that it really has no significant effect on the overall population. Now it could have an effect on smaller localized areas. Or in areas where there aren't many turkey to begin with.

Personally, I think the hunters who have spent the time to craft their skill and become sure enough good turkey hunters, shouldn't have their opportunities reduced so "You get a bird! You get a bird! EVERYBODY GETS A BIRD!" But that seems to be the way our  is going in everything. Now even turkey hunting.

I actually sort of like the idea someone mentioned earlier in this thread about a 1-bird limit for non-residents. That'd definitely help spread the non-resident pressure. I've hunted several 1-bird states and often have fantastic hunts in them.

Glad to see it! The public land pressure will definitely be better spread out. Folks were jumping around with the staggered opening dates on WMAs and zone differences. Don't know why someone would feel the need to kill 5 birds in a state... Get a few, if you need more, go to the next state.. A lot of the deer hunters recently turned turkey hunters crowd won't be near as successful those first 10 days without decoys. More gobblers on the landscape to help ensure the deed is done.

Well, which one is it? Should states reduce tag numbers or not? Should people just be happy with what's allowed and move on to the next state? More gobblers on the landscape to ensure the deed is done but I thought it had no significant impact on the population? I haven't hunted OK but what I'm hearing is too many people (primarily NRs) hunting a greatly reduced population of turkeys. The same thing is happening with Units 1 & 2 in KS right now. They are the only two bird units and that is where everyone went this year. Things looked good before season and went to crap really quick. I used to tell people to wait until May for more receptive birds and less people but that's not the case anymore. Now it's 3-6 guys per gobbler on public. Just from my observations it's got to be 70% or greater NRs in those units. I have someone I was going to take out late May and we aren't even going to go now. Not only is it not an enjoyable experience but also a safety concern when there are that many people crowding a single bird.

[the Ward]

What a load of selfish drivel. " i just gots to shoot muh  lot of turkey, one or two isn't enough to satisfy  my ego or blood lust" me, me ,me that is exactly why our country is circling the drain. Everyone talks about making sacrifice's as long as it is the other guy, not ME. I don't know what the answer is to declining turkey populations, but it is obvious we need to start being proactive in it's solution. Keeping limits high with a declining population is absurd. It isn't the cure, but it is a start.We as hunters need to keep pressure on our respective DNR's to get them to focus on a way to improve long term sustainability of the flocks.

[deerhunt1988]

Well, if you support hunting moving a toward a more Democratic/Liberal approach, I don't guess there is a thing wrong with "spreading the wealth". Such a small percentage of hunters actually kill 3 birds in states that allow it, that it really has no significant effect on the overall population. Now it could have an effect on smaller localized areas. Or in areas where there aren't many turkey to begin with.

Personally, I think the hunters who have spent the time to craft their skill and become sure enough good turkey hunters, shouldn't have their opportunities reduced so "You get a bird! You get a bird! EVERYBODY GETS A BIRD!" But that seems to be the way our  is going in everything. Now even turkey hunting.

I actually sort of like the idea someone mentioned earlier in this thread about a 1-bird limit for non-residents. That'd definitely help spread the non-resident pressure. I've hunted several 1-bird states and often have fantastic hunts in them.

Glad to see it! The public land pressure will definitely be better spread out. Folks were jumping around with the staggered opening dates on WMAs and zone differences. Don't know why someone would feel the need to kill 5 birds in a state... Get a few, if you need more, go to the next state.. A lot of the deer hunters recently turned turkey hunters crowd won't be near as successful those first 10 days without decoys. More gobblers on the landscape to help ensure the deed is done.

Well, which one is it? Should states reduce tag numbers or not? Should people just be happy with what's allowed and move on to the next state? More gobblers on the landscape to ensure the deed is done but I thought it had no significant impact on the population? I haven't hunted OK but what I'm hearing is too many people (primarily NRs) hunting a greatly reduced population of turkeys. The same thing is happening with Units 1 & 2 in KS right now. They are the only two bird units and that is where everyone went this year. Things looked good before season and went to crap really quick. I used to tell people to wait until May for more receptive birds and less people but that's not the case anymore. Now it's 3-6 guys per gobbler on public. Just from my observations it's got to be 70% or greater NRs in those units. I have someone I was going to take out late May and we aren't even going to go now. Not only is it not an enjoyable experience but also a safety concern when there are that many people crowding a single bird.

There is a difference in reducing CURRENT OPPORTUNITY and already being a 1-bird limit state.

I'm not really in support of drastically reducing opportunity especially when it isn't backed by science and is just a theory.

Like I previously mentioned. Arkansas started reducing opportunity, moving seasons back, etc. nearly a decade ago. And they really aren't much better off now than they were then. Until other management factors start being implemented that CAN have a substantial impact on turkey populations, we won't see leaps in populations from these proposed changes.

I do believe (and previously stated) that in areas with few turkey to begin with (and when I say few, I mean FEW, i.e. a couple turkey per couple square miles), that some damage may can be done with very early season harvest. We have situations such as this in far south Mississippi amongst tens of thousands of acres of piss poor habitat and our season opens March 15. I hunt all over the US and have saw very few places in this extreme. Most people would give up turkey hunting if they had to hunt a place like this. This is NOT the case in many states that are currently reducing opportunity.

My comment towards gobblers getting the deed done was in reference to the outlawing of decoys the first 10-days in Alabama. So many henned-up dominant gobblers die now early in the season that were living until mid-April just 10-15 years ago. Back before the strutter decoy/fanning craze. Back in the days where he flew down with hens and you couldn't budge him until about mid-April. Or if he was a field bird, sometimes you got lucky and bushwhacked him. Man, those were the days! It actually took a lot more skill back then... But I digress. More gobblers on the landscape CERTAINLY improves hunt quality. More gobblers = more competition = more gobbling and normally more carryover. But carryover does very little for poult recruitment.

I have hunted OK. I have hunted KS, multiple times. You want to know what has happened to those states? Mother nature and social media. Kansas was the first state that social media ruined in the early 2010s. And this very forum is one of the places it started. As social media has progressed, so has the damnation of our public lands. OK and KS have both turned into scenarios where if you aren't there opening week, your odds of success are greatly reduced. Yeah, turkey populations are lower, thanks to Mother Nature and other human induced factors such as habitat degradation and fragmentation. But the public land hunting quality has went to crap thanks to 'the gold rush syndrome' and overpressure. As far as public land populations? You can look up Oklahoma harvest data. There are western OK WMAs that are killing more turkey now than they were 5 years ago. The difference is those turkey are just dying much earlier in the season. Last I looked they had still killed 70+ on Black Kettle which is ~30,000 acres. That harvest is definitely down, but it still VASTLY surpasses most southeastern state's public land harvest rates.  So many people think all they have to do is point their vehicle west, get out, and be rolling in gobbling turkeys. They all finding out now it just isn't so anymore.

Now since I've typed the above, I've finished reading your words. We obviously are 100% on the same page there!

In regards to my comment on Alabama reducing the limit, to me, there is a big difference between a 3 bird limit and 5 bird limit. And I know very few hunters killed the 5-bird limit so reducing it to 4 isn't going to do anything for populations. But dang, FIVE in one state?

But there is another slippery slope that comes with reducing limits. Management of private lands. In the southeast there are some SERIOUS turkey hunters/hunting clubs that manage strictly for turkey. Especially in Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia.... You start fooling with limits and seasons too much and you reduce their incentive to manage for turkey....Private lands are the wheelhouse for turkey across the eastern U.S.

And yup, the 1-bird states I've hunted are 1-bird for both residents and non-residents. With the exception of Iowa. And none of those 1-bird limits are from recent reductions to limits. Will a 1-bird limit help HUNT QUALITY, dang right it will! Do I support historically 3-bird limit states dropping to 1-bird for everyone? Heck no! And I sincerely hope the turkey situation never gets so bad that there is a need for it.

[AndyN]

I'll agree with you on most of that. But when we can't get people to do the management on private property even with endless funding options for them I feel the next best move is to reduce harvest numbers to maintain a quality hunt. If mother nature would cooperate for a couple years in a row things could bounce back pretty quick. The problem is years of back to back poor production caused by either too much or too little rain. Nests either get flooded out from too big of rains or we get a good hatch and then slip into a drought over the summer and poults don't make it. Many public areas still crank out some good bird numbers even if turkeys aren't the center of their management practices. The problem is those good numbers last maybe a week before the bulk of the birds are either shot or pushed off onto private property. Everyone wants to blame agricultural practices but when you look at states further north that's a tough one to argue. Some of the best states I hunt are primarily crop ground and any remaining grass is hayed too early and too often. Yet they still produce plenty of birds even with that poor habitat. What they do have is consistent moisture and lower tag numbers than southern states whether it's managed on a statewide or unit by unit basis.

[deerhunt1988]

I'll agree with you on most of that. But when we can't get people to do the management on private property even with endless funding options for them I feel the next best move is to reduce harvest numbers to maintain a quality hunt. If mother nature would cooperate for a couple years in a row things could bounce back pretty quick. The problem is years of back to back poor production caused by either too much or too little rain. Nests either get flooded out from too big of rains or we get a good hatch and then slip into a drought over the summer and poults don't make it. Many public areas still crank out some good bird numbers even if turkeys aren't the center of their management practices. The problem is those good numbers last maybe a week before the bulk of the birds are either shot or pushed off onto private property. Everyone wants to blame agricultural practices but when you look at states further north that's a tough one to argue. Some of the best states I hunt are primarily crop ground and any remaining grass is hayed too early and too often. Yet they still produce plenty of birds even with that poor habitat. What they do have is consistent moisture and lower tag numbers than southern states whether it's managed on a statewide or unit by unit basis.

And I'll agree with everything you just said! We are basically on the same page. I just want folks to realize that reducing opportunity is not the magic bullet and once anything is taken away, we likely won't get it back.

Key words: "reduce harvest numbers to maintain a quality hunt". Reduce harvest enough, especially on public lands, and it can definitely help with hunt quality. But don't expect much in overall terms of population. Ideally there will be a bit more carryover IF those birds saved aren't killed by other hunters OR killed by someone taken by a hunter that has limited out.

I am not completely against lowered public land limits. As a public land manager myself, it saddens me to see the turkey get raped and pillaged on public lands. But what I do not appreciate, is a state like Ohio, proposing to reduce the public land limit while actually adding another weekend to their statewide season! They act like they are doing something to save turkey, but yet increase the #1 factor that leads to dead turkey = days of opportunity. Its not fair to the hunter that only has public lands to hunt in Ohio. And i'm willing to bet that in Ohio, less than 5% of turkey hunters get both their birds on public land. Ohio will allow more turkey to be killed by adding that extra weekend than they will save on public lands by reducing the limit to 1.

[sasquatch1]

It's real simple. I don't want to see OPPORTUNITY lost! I'd rather have more regulations that make a bird harder to kill then to take away the days I can hunt!

One is an obstacle and the other is a restriction!

I'd rather see a state be bow only with no blinds or decoys then to shorten my season!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[longbeards]

I haven't had the pleasure of ever getting to hunt Oklahoma, but it has always been on my hit list of states to turkey hunt. 

I hate to see declining turkey populations, anywhere. I am from WV and in my 52 years of hunting experience I have seen the turkey population rise from a hand full of counties with turkeys, to every county in the state and unbelievable numbers in some. That said I have also seen decline in some of the traditional turkey counties.

SO with that being said I believe turkey hunters are justified in Ok to seek the best management plan the state can put together. I wish you success! 
   

[WV Flopper]

Guys, keep in mind this post was started about Oklahoma.

I think with the terrain and available habitat to hunt, if you haven't been there, you have No business posting. Even if you think you are a professional.

[El Pavo Grande]

And another state jumps on the bandwagon.

Just remember, there is no scientific evidence that shifting seasons to later starting dates will have an effect on turkey populations. At this point it is theory. And reducing the bag limit by 1 bird will not have a significant impact on overall population levels across the landscape.

If these changes had significant impacts, why hasn't Arkansas made a huge rebound? They've had similar changes in place for quite a while now.

This a dangerous path many states are taking. Now if the changes were 100% backed by peer-reviewed science, I wouldn't be so wary.

The only way to really make a difference is to manage habitat and/or predators. It all boils down to nest success and recruitment.

As a wildlife professional, it somewhat blows my mind at some of the regulation changes we are seeing at such a fast pace. What if some of this theory is wrong? We've taken away opportunity by jumping the gun. Once hunting opportunity is taken away, don't expect to get it back!

Great post!!! This has been my argument all along as an Arkansas resident.  If we rely on hunting regulations alone to make a significant impact, then we will be very disappointed with the results.  What many in other states don't realize is that the Arkansas season has been late and "later" for several years.  Once they were concerned with a decline in the early 2000s, the season was moved back a week to around the April 10-14 range, then to the range of April 16-20, back to an April 8-10 range, and now back again to April 19.  Reduced season from 30-39 days in early 2000s to around 21 days.  The length of season settled around 15-16 days for close to 9 straight years, and back to around 20 days this season.  They cut the fall season out in 2009 and implemented a no jake (1 allowed per youth) rule in 2011. 

What have the results been?   A continually decline in the population.  A WMA I am very familiar with went to a draw about 7-8 years ago.  Drastically reduced hunter #s and hours spent hunting.  Habitat is unchanged.  The harvest has been reduced by at least 1/4 to 1/5.   And yet, far less turkeys are there now than before.  Other public land areas shut down, so no hunting pressure, and still less turkeys.  There are areas of the state that have faired better than others, but this is the norm for most of the state.  A few reports of solid rebounds on well managed properties focused on habitat and intense trapping / predator control. 

We have had high rainfall averages during April, May, June that in my opinion have wreaked a lot of havoc on success of hatches.  2012 was very dry in that period and the hatch report was very good.   Not surprisingly 2014 yielded a good harvest total.  We had dismal hatch results in 2017 (.86 PPH), 2018 (.95 PPH), and 2019 (1.13 PPH), with slightly better results in 2020 (1.53). 

So, while I support conservative season structures, within reason, it would be hard to convince me that season structures alone will have any significant impact.  I can't disagree though that it's sound management to take conservative approaches. 

[GobbleNut]

Here are the important points to be made (in my opinion):

Turkey populations are totally dependent upon nesting success and poult survival. In populations that have stable reproductive success, well-regulated human harvest is irrelevant to the overall health of that population.   

Timing of the spring season is absolutely a factor in affecting potential full-breeding of the hens ,...IN STRUGGLING TURKEY POPULATIONS.  Disruption of the breeding cycle in populations with low numbers of gobblers can result in incomplete breeding of the hens in that population.  Combine hunting too early in populations that are having little or no population recruitment (due to whatever factors), and you have a sure recipe for continuing declines in turkey numbers.

Bag limits and season lengths do have an impact,...again, in those turkey populations that are not having sustainable population recruitment.  If you are not having male (and female) turkeys coming into the population on a sustainable level, every year that population is hunted, more and more of the mature gobblers will be removed through hunter success.  The question then becomes,... when does a population reach the "tipping point" where there are not enough mature gobblers to result in full breeding of the hen population? 

That tipping point is most certainly going to be reached more quickly with high bag limits and longer seasons.  Really, what wildlife managers are doing by reducing bag limits IN STRUGGLING POPULATIONS is gambling that there will eventually be reproductive success in that population,...and that by reducing gobbler harvest, there will be adequate numbers of gobblers around to make sure the hen population is fully bred. (the same concept should be applied in either-sex fall hunting, as well) 

Make no mistake about it, in turkey populations with little or no recruitment/nesting success, both the quality and quantity of your hunting will suffer tremendously in the long run.  The choice for the turkey hunter is ultimately the same as for the wild turkey manager,...Do you want to leave some gobblers "out there" in hopes that there will be enough of them left over time so that if and when successful nesting and population recruitment occurs there are enough turkeys in the woods to take advantage of that? 

Bottom line is that human hunting is rarely going to be the reason for turkey population declines.  We have to identify and resolve the real reasons for those declines.  However, in the meantime our choices are to ensure that there are adequate numbers of birds in the woods for when that problem is resolved,...or we need to be ready to supplement those populations with a renewed and vigorous trap and transplant effort where needed.  Honestly, the best answer is probably to do both.

[zeke632]

You can add Black Bears to the deer & fish focus that Oklahoma's wildlife department spends it time and money on. 
I live in the Ouachita Mt area of SE Oklahoma.  I'm convinced that along with nest predators, (bears included) pitiful forest management by the USFS is a factor of declining numbers of turkeys here. They have ruined large sections of turkey habitat.  Select cutting and then abandon it.  It's almost like a  checkerboard. Areas that held turkeys ruined. After just a few years it becomes a thicket that you can't walk through.  They do some controlled burns but it's always about 3 years late and it reverts back into a thicket quick. Areas that are clear cut hold a more turkeys and deer. Hell, if a clear cut had 1 turkey in it that's 1 more than a 500 acre briar thicket holds.
Turkey season has started late here for several years compared to the rest of the state. It hasn't helped. I'm not opposed to it if it gets more hens bread...but it's not helping here.
It's obvious, IMO, when Jakes AND bearded Hens are still legal, with numbers declining, that the "experts" aren't paying attention....

[arkrem870]

Oklahoma should ban the killing of jakes. They get slaughtered

[Sanders153]

You can add Black Bears to the deer & fish focus that Oklahoma's wildlife department spends it time and money on. 
I live in the Ouachita Mt area of SE Oklahoma.  I'm convinced that along with nest predators, (bears included) pitiful forest management by the USFS is a factor of declining numbers of turkeys here. They have ruined large sections of turkey habitat.  Select cutting and then abandon it.  It's almost like a  checkerboard. Areas that held turkeys ruined. After just a few years it becomes a thicket that you can't walk through.  They do some controlled burns but it's always about 3 years late and it reverts back into a thicket quick. Areas that are clear cut hold a more turkeys and deer. Hell, if a clear cut had 1 turkey in it that's 1 more than a 500 acre briar thicket holds.
Turkey season has started late here for several years compared to the rest of the state. It hasn't helped. I'm not opposed to it if it gets more hens bread...but it's not helping here.
It's obvious, IMO, when Jakes AND bearded Hens are still legal, with numbers declining, that the "experts" aren't paying attention....

I live quite close to ya man.. you're absolutely right on all that. The forest management is poor poor in SE Oklahoma

[Dtrkyman]

A couple tough years on these public lands and the wanna be traveling turkey hunter will stop showing up!  Guys will not drive across the country to have their teeth kicked in for 5 days!

Changing season dates would have no perceived negative effect and possibly enhance breeding on the suggestion of someone who has studied the bird for 30 years, seems logical to me.

I looked into hunting Ok. this year on the western side, called a biologist there and decided not to go, if the bird is struggling that much I just don't need to take one out.  I actually like a tough hunt, however not hearing or working birds for days is just not fun!

Was also going to hit Kansas on the way home this spring, however I drive through there several times a year for the past 5 years and never see turkeys on my route.  So I let em be.

We had some seriously good years hunting these birds, now we are on a down cycle and it too shall pass!

[Gooserbat]

Oklahoma should ban the killing of jakes. They get slaughtered

This