Animal Vets--Any Way Around Them?

[g8rvet]

bb, I respect your opinions and you always give thoughtful replies, so I will discuss this with you like I have done with my clients.  I am about the same age as your vet, so I have seen a lot of changes in our profession. 

Let's reach some common ground first.

1)As a veterinarian, do you think I am ethically and morally bound to prescribe or administer the appropriate medication to all of my patients?  I have never practiced defensive medicine and don't think much about getting sued.  My job is to communicate with the owners, form a team to take care of their pet and my patient to the best of our ability.  I have always felt if I am doing my best, based on clear science and my professional judgement, I should be fine, which brings me to------

2) "Standard of care": This is the term used in human and veterinary medicine that describes the degree of care and skill of my peers.  That is the standard I am expected to uphold in the treatment, diagnostics and care of my patients. I am not expected to be a specialist in every discipline, but am held to the standard that anything beyond my scope be referred.  My "peers" would be private practice general practitioners.  This is absolutely important to this discussion.

3) State law:  in my state, by law, in order to prescribe a medication, I am expected to have a valid VCPR (Veterinary-Client-Patient-Relationship).  My state defines that, in part, by a minimum of having examined the patient within the last year. 

4)Do you agree that my degree, state license and experience make me an expert on the health, biology, pharmacology and diagnostics of my patients? (I'll explain why later).

[Ihuntoldschool]

I stand by my comments.  You've all heard how Doctors are only in it for the money, but when it comes to Vets you can take that to the bank and then some... I know several former Vet techs who got out of the business for that very reason, couldn't stand to see it day in and day out any longer.
Competing interests here guys, it's simple when you think about it.  You as the dog owner, your interest is the HEALTH of your dog...  The Vet's interest is to maximize income, think about that.  That P.O.S. wants to call me stupid because I am not afraid to tell it like it really is and expose the industry for what it is. It's long overdue....   Do your research on heartworms guys and what they need to survive, how difficult it is.  The fact of the matter is Vet visits are down, way down since the pandemic started and they will do ANYTHING to try and recover that lost income.  You can take that to the bank.

[g8rvet]

LOL Oldtool You say dumb things, folks call you on it and you get personal in your attacks. I really wonder if you truly are just dumb.

My vet techs - 19 years, 12 years, 7 years and 5 years.  One retired last year after 25 years working for me.  Maybe your friends worked for doctors that are money grubbers. I certainly know some-I even worked for one.  That means squat for the whole profession. 

What heartworms need to survive?  WTH are you even talking about?  In the dog?  In the mosquito?  I have treated hundreds of dogs with heartworm disease.  Most are just fine with simple treatment-neither expensive, nor difficult.  But if treated incorrectly, or worse, ignored, it can be fatal.  You are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts. 

As far as the "fact" that vet visits are way down, you are again showing your raging stupidity.  Vet visits are way UP in almost every area of the country I read about.  It took me 5 years to hire a new graduate because they are in such demand-they can write their own ticket.  Almost every vet clinic I know or read about is booming and trying their best to hire more staff and more vets. The veterinary industry news is flooded with ways to handle the new burden on practices in the face of this unprecedented surge in visits and why it has happened.  So your fact is completely wrong.  It is the opposite of a fact. 

Competing interests.  LOL.  A medical practitioner of any type makes money by treating patients. A fireman's job exists because of fires.  A cop's job exists because of crime.  A lawyer's job exists due to legal battles.  And you think only vets, of all these professions, are guilty of some crime for making a living treating their patients.  The stupid is strong in you.  Heartworm prevention (including yearly testing) makes up a small percentage of our yearly gross and profit from that would be much less.  But bang your drum about how it is not a disease or does not kill dogs.  You really really show how ignorant you are. I wonder what you do for a living. I am sure you will not say. 

Sorry bbcoach, I do want to keep discussing with you.   

[g8rvet]

I'm no expert on this but I have been told the stuff you get at the feed store covers everything but heart worms. If you want protection for heart worms you have to get a prescription. Don't think there's any way around it. Hopefully someone can recommend a better way.

The active ingredient in Heartguard is ivermectin. Fun fact: everything a vet can give was developed for people or livestock before it was adapted to pets. Lot more money in people and livestock.

Not a fact at all.  It may have had more truth 30 years ago, but I can name 15 drugs that were developed exclusively for dogs and/or cats with no human or livestock applications.  I can name 2 that were developed for and tested in dogs that later had human uses discovered.  Funded 100% by animal industry, not the human side.

So name them. Might be interesting.

palladia
deracoxib
firocoxib
cefovecin
pimobendan
melanoma vaccine (now being explored on the human side)
maripotant
Mitratapide
Oclacitinib (human dermatologists are investigating another drug in this class for use in humans - we can't tolerate this one)
Cytopoint (sterile caninized anti-IL-31 monoclonal antibody injection)
enrofloxacin - for dogs-later a published dose for cattle, but started as canine antibiotic

So I lied, I thought of 11.  To be fair, neither of us are really correct.  Chemists/biochemists invent or discover the molecule and then study it in cell cultures and animal models and their ultimate goal is the trifecta -human, food animal and companion animal. Most of the big companies have animal and human sides in their research.   My nephew is getting his PhD in this area.  Interesting how many get shelved.  Sometimes the drugs just don't work in humans, are too toxic, etc.   Same is true for the human drugs in animals - sometimes too expensive, sometimes don't work, etc.  The goal is to sell the drug.  But many of these newer drugs were funded by and targeted for dogs and cats to start. 

EDIT: I thought of something else funny.  A drug was developed to treat human pulmonary hypertension.  It works well.   We also prescribe it for dogs with the same condition.  Owners get a funny look I am sure when they pick up their prescription - for generic Viagra!  It seems the side effect of this drug can be a positive! 

[Sasha and Abby]

LOL.  There is so much incorrect in this thread it is laughable. 

First, please do not use the horse paste if you are going to use ivermectin as a sole preventative.  Use the injectable sold for cattle, but use it orally.  It works fine and is cheaper per pet anyways.  0.1cc per 30 lbs prevents heartworms.  0.1cc per 10 lbs prevents heartworms and intestinal parasites.  Just not tapeworms, but they are not dangerous and if your dog gets those, there are over the counter meds for those.  DO NOT use ivermectin in collies, Aussies, Border Collies.  They have a high incidence of a gene mutation which allows the chemical to cross the blood brain barrier and can kill your dog.  Do not use it any dog if they have a reaction - ie dilated pupils, staggering, etc.  All these recommendations are at your own risk.  Consult a veterinarian for specific advice for your pet. 

Heartworms are rare?  That's rich.  They might be rare where you are, but I diagnose 0-5 cases per week.  Most of which are easily and inexpensively treated if caught early-you know, by yearly heartworm exams.  I think I had like 6 cases this past week.  And healthy dogs do not kill the infection.  The adult heartworms have a lifespan of 6-7 years.  If the dog is not infected with more worms and they do not die of the heartworms, they will clear on their own.  Some or a lot of damage can be done in the meantime, it just depends.  There are lots of dogs that have immunity from getting them in the first place.  Only 60% of dogs in Florida not on preventative will get heartworms.  I have seen dogs never on prevention that never got the disease and I have seen dogs dying at 18 months of age with caval syndrome (massive load of heartworms blocking the main vessel vena cava).  Wolves and coyotes can and do get them, but their resistance is higher due to natural selection.  Our pet's natural selection was not selected for so many generations, they are more susceptible.  I have seen an owner get heartworm meds for 2 of their dogs and share it with the other 2 without us knowing.  Killed one and the other was very very sick for a week.  I know, because we did the necropsy and submitted the tissues and the "money grubbing" heartworm medicine company paid for it, because they wanted to be sure it was not a bad reaction to the medicine.  I can tell anyone more about that if they are interested. 

As far as price gouging, then don't pay.  We package our yearly exam and vaccines so that there is a yearly discount, so a heartworm test and fecal is included in the package and it actually saves the owner's money over just coming in and getting the vaccines and exam.  No stupid plan (like the doc in a box practices do) - everyone that gets a full yearly gets a full discount-a guy last week actually did not need a heartworm test for another couple months, but it saved him money to get it with the yearly, so he did.   

In the state of Florida, in order to prescribe heartworm prevention, a prescription drug, by law, a yearly exam is required, by law and it is considered within the custom of practice to include a yearly heartworm test (civil liabilty-not legal).  I will not gamble my license or civil liability to save anyone $38.   Get it somewhere else or don't use it. 

"Vets are in it for the money". Yep.  No apologies here.  We have to pay our bills, pay our employees, purchase lab, xray, surgical equipment, pay licensing fees, etc.  In my little practice 15 families rely on my business to put food on their table.  It is a business.  Do you get a paycheck?  Why don't you go pave the road for the county for free because you love roads?  Why don't you be an accountant for free because you love numbers.  Stupid statement.   I see people like you all the time begging for my help after they have messed around and almost killed their pet.  And then blame me if I can't save them or worse, I can save them but they don't want to pay my fees.  This stuff used to bother me, but not anymore.  I have people begging to get in, pay my fees and tell me we are very affordable and thank us profusely as they are writing their checks.  Some people actually do consider their pets important enough to spend money on.  That is who I enjoy helping.  I give discounts every day, but never to people like some of y'all.  People who appreciate what we do and try their best to save their pets.  Many of whom can't afford the best, but we both still try to help their pets.

I have 32 years of practice in May and still enjoy what I do.  I'm not and never will be rich, but I make an honest living from people that appreciate my knowledge and skills. 

The best way around a vet is don't own a pet or don't give a rats arse if it lives or dies. Problem solved.  Some of you guys are just whining cause you want something for nothing and want someone with an education and expenses to do it for you for free.  Good luck with that. 

Oh and one more thing, money made on selling heartworm and flea meds is why I can do an ACL surgery for under $1500.   The profitable portions of our business like yearlies and meds pay the way for our discounted spays and extensive surgeries that are pennies on the dollars compared to what we should get paid for them.  But I know some of y'all don't care about that.  You just want yours, cheap, every step of the way.

Beat me to it...  THIS is the correct response.

[Big Jeremy]

I love my veterinarian and he treats me and my dogs right.


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[ScottTaulbee]

The heart guard medicine they push is ivermectin. You can buy a 250ml pour on bottle of it for around 20$ at your local tractor supply. It's 1ml per 22 pounds of body weight and kills heart worms, plus several gastric worms and several other things, you just pour it down their back


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[Bowguy]

This is simple guys, as stated regular ivomec. You can get at tractor supply. Shots w needles you can also get at tractor supply for pennies. If you need rabies either towns often offer it free or tractor supply has a clinic. For 20 plus dollars you get the shot plus certificate. Antibiotics you can get as well in most pet stores for other animals. Your cost would be low overall.
If you treat dogs all year w ivomec you actually won't get heart worm so don't need a test. This nonsense about yearly check ups is ridiculous. When is the last time you brought your kids in? Aren't they more valuable???
Vets are way over priced. Keep using them they'll stay way over priced. Make them feel a little pinch and they'll be reasonable. When fort dodge was around I'd get 25 shots with needles for 100 bucks. The stuff was a year til expiration as long as you protected it. I had 12 dogs. I'd give them a shot now and next year. Or when I had 14 Id split with a bud.
Tractor supply or online you can get permethrin concentrate. 10 bucks you get a bottle I use weekly as recommended on dogs, use it on chaps, my turkey and deer hunt clothes, etc. I never get ticks using it. Go ahead spend all kinds of money at a vet, buy some chewable heart worm stuff, spend 50 bucks for a flea collar. As a guy w many dogs that are taken care of there's much cheaper ways than spending 300 plus dollars my brother does yearly at a vet.
Here's another one. There's a vet in my beagle club. He said he went to an infectious seminar. Once digs are vaccinated 2 times the vaccine is good 3 years. How come the vets don't tell you that?
A buddy of mine had a dog, they want 3000 grand to operate. He said no he didn't have that, took the dog to leave. They asked if 1200 was ok? So why not offer a $1200 operation? These guys are ridiculous.
Another pet peeve. My old vet would give me big jars of panacur, a thorough wormer. He'd cut me a break on since I had lots of dogs if something was needed. Not charge me office visits etc.  If you need a simple shot, say you're not comfortable doing yourself, bear in mind the shots are about brainless if under the skin type, but a vet wants an exam fee, an office visit fee, than all kinds of money for a simple shot the dog doesn't need. Fees for tests he doesn't need. Than some preventative garbage. Now he wants to knock out your dog to clean it's teeth. Has you worried it's "responsible". Nonsense. Vets have their place but they should know animals have a value and it's what rural guys will pay. Go to the local city cat vet and bring a big check book w you

[Crghss]

I don't get all the hating on vets. No one is forcing you to take your animal there. It's a service. Don't want to pay, don't take your animal there for care.

Had a friend that was a large animal veterinarian for years. Got tired of all the bitching and complaining. So he closed down his practice and opened an office near Palm Beach, FL. Charges a premium to care for little fury dogs. Hires two guys to groom the little furies, wash, cut hair & nails. All his customers love him, can't wait to drop off there little buddies for a day at doggie spa. Works half as hard for more money.

Every Wednesday morning we'd go out on his boat. Fishing first then diving for lobster. He was allergic to seafood. Could never eat what we caught. Always go a laugh out of that.

[Sir-diealot]

I started giving my dog her 9 in 1 shots (May be 7 and 1 I am bad with numbers) every year because the vet charges 65.00 just to walk in the door and another 65.00 for the shots and I can do it myself for less than 8.00 total including the price of the needle.

They still stick it to you with the rabies shot though because you can't do that one yourself.

I do take her in for her yearly exam and to get her groomed and nails trimmed and pay the 20.00 for the fecal exam though.

[Dtrkyman]

I had a lab, very healthy, after a few years I just flat stopped going to the vet, she lived a healthy life until she was 10 and had a stroke, she recovered back to 80% or so and lived a couple more years.

I have seen money grubbing vets and good ones, their people like the rest of us, many good and some bad!

[Sir-diealot]

I have seen money grubbing vets and good ones, their people like the rest of us, many good and some bad!

Very true, we have a very bad money grabber here in my county, I had tried to get pet ins. for my dog and I went there to ask which ones they excepted and the receptionist told me they are not allowed to tell me that I should just get some and they will tell me if they except it or not at the time of the visit. I asked to speak to the charge nurse, she said the same, I asked to talk to the Vet. and he also said the same. Problem they are the only ones in the county (Or were at that time) so they really stick it to everybody. Locals do not deal with them, mostly the tourists do now which keeps them going.

[slicksbeagles1]

In no way am a I responsible for what anyone chooses to do this is the choice I have made. I have had and raised beagles since I was 12 years old I am now 62. The information you have been given in the thread concerning ivomec is correct one tenth of a cc per every 10 pounds. The information on aussies and the other 2 breeds are correct also. I have in the time I have had beagles found 2 vets that were excellent and old enough that they grew up in an era that hunting dogs were used for hunting and areas where it was common place. They understood that and if I had to take a dog to the vet I could ask percentages of recovery to make my decision without being looked at as cruel or uncompassionate. I care about my dogs and take very good care of them but you have to know when to make a decision. I travel 75 miles now to one of the vets because of all this! Vets are a necessity like doctors, they are a dime a dozen but, a good one is hard to find.Keep looking until you find one that you like. I will say that I think the really younger generation has no idea because the liberal teaching they receive.

[g8rvet]

I have a lot of clients like you slick. One had beagles too.  Used to be a bunch with bird dogs.  Fox dogs were big here back in the day too.


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[g8rvet]

Sir.   All pet insurance is third party payment.  That means you pay the vet and the pet insurance company pays you.  Every one I have dealt with has a set amount they pay for a certain diagnosis.   I am not aware of any pet insurance that pays the vet directly. 


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