How Much Numbers Is Too Much Numbers?

[ChesterCopperpot]

Been thinking about what we "require" or expect now out of turkey guns at 40yds, and I was wondering what's the magic number you're looking for in a 10" circle? Obviously this is load dependent so just mention the load and what you're happy with or hoping to get out of it in the 10" at 40yds.

I've always been more into pattern shape and uniformity than numbers but shot some HEVI 13 #7s for the first time recently and found myself very disappointed in the 10" numbers at 40. Pattern was good and even with nothing much getting outside 20" but the 10" numbers were only ~130ish (2oz of HEVI so roughly a quarter of the load). Saw someone mention this morning on a different post that they were getting 250s but were disappointed the choke wasn't getting 280s as advertised and that got me wondering how much numbers is too much numbers? Most of us here seem to be tinkerers by nature so maybe we're all just bound to be dissatisfied


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[bbcoach]

WOW!!!  130ish!!! 

I shoot 2 1/4 oz 7's through a .670 Pure Gold out of my 835 and she puts up over 300 devastating results on birds.  With that being said, I have many boxes of the early 7's that shot so well before Hevi changed some of their components.

To answer your question and as you stated, it depends on the ammo, lot numbers of that ammo, choke and gun.  Many on this site have done their Due Diligence, experimented with many loads and chokes and have shared those results, which gives the rest of us a GREAT starting point.  Each of us have to decide how much we want to spend to obtain OUR desired results.  Dead is Dead but the Ol Standard is 100 pellets in 10 at 40.

My Standard is 300 plus of Hevi #7's because I've seen what they will do at various ranges.

[CALLM2U]

I try REALLY hard to keep things into perspective (with everything in life-but specifically with patterning)

For many, many years I shot lead and copper plated lead and never felt under-gunned.  I always kept shots under 40 and can only recall losing 1 bird over the years. 

Fast forward to TSS and the other newer loads, we're FAR exceeding what we had back then.  I know I'm stating the obvious, but it's back to that perspective.  I was happy and EFFECTIVE back then.  I only changed because I wanted to, not because I had to. 

So when I look at TSS patterns today, I look at it as insurance.  If it's even and consistent, I know it's going to be better than lead so I don't worry about it.  I could chase numbers-and do with reloading CF and MLs, but for some reason, for patterning, I can be a lot more content.

Not sure if that's helpful or not, but it's my perspective. 

[ChesterCopperpot]

WOW!!!  130ish!!! 

I shoot 2 1/4 oz 7's through a .670 Pure Gold out of my 835 and she puts up over 300 devastating results on birds.  With that being said, I have many boxes of the early 7's that shot so well before Hevi changed some of their components.

To answer your question and as you stated, it depends on the ammo, lot numbers of that ammo, choke and gun.  Many on this site have done their Due Diligence, experimented with many loads and chokes and have shared those results, which gives the rest of us a GREAT starting point.  Each of us have to decide how much we want to spend to obtain OUR desired results.  Dead is Dead but the Ol Standard is 100 pellets in 10 at 40.

My Standard is 300 plus of Hevi #7's because I've seen what they will do at various ranges.

Yeah, those HEVI numbers were low enough that I found myself counting and bothered for the first time. I've always patterned my guns but like I said have always been more concerned with overall shape and continuity. I wondered if the load wasn't over-choked. If I broke 250 I'd never bat an eye. Here's a thread of those patterns: CZ 1012 with Rob Roberts .660 Invector Plus
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/topic?share_fid=17578&share_tid=101167&url=http%3A%2F%2Foldgobbler%2Ecom%2FForum%2Findex%2Ephp%3Ftopic%3D101167&share_type=t&link_source=app


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[ChesterCopperpot]

I try REALLY hard to keep things into perspective (with everything in life-but specifically with patterning)

For many, many years I shot lead and copper plated lead and never felt under-gunned.  I always kept shots under 40 and can only recall losing 1 bird over the years. 

Fast forward to TSS and the other newer loads, we're FAR exceeding what we had back then.  I know I'm stating the obvious, but it's back to that perspective.  I was happy and EFFECTIVE back then.  I only changed because I wanted to, not because I had to. 

So when I look at TSS patterns today, I look at it as insurance.  If it's even and consistent, I know it's going to be better than lead so I don't worry about it.  I could chase numbers-and do with reloading CF and MLs, but for some reason, for patterning, I can be a lot more content.

Not sure if that's helpful or not, but it's my perspective.

I'd say that perspective's not only helpful but a savior on the billfold. Chasing numbers is a money game and unfortunately I've got little


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[paboxcall]

Yeah, those HEVI numbers were low enough that I found myself counting and bothered for the first time. I've always patterned my guns but like I said have always been more concerned with overall shape and continuity. I wondered if the load wasn't over-choked. If I broke 250 I'd never bat an eye. Here's a thread of those patterns: CZ 1012 with Rob Roberts .660 Invector Plus
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/topic?share_fid=17578&share_tid=101167&url=http%3A%2F%2Foldgobbler%2Ecom%2FForum%2Findex%2Ephp%3Ftopic%3D101167&share_type=t&link_source=app

I hear you. I shot the 2 oz. Hevi-13 #7s through an original .660 JH tube. I would easily put up 250+ depending on how dirty the barrel was, or MORE IMPORTANTLY, unless the buffer leaked out of the Hevi shell. Loosing buffer seemed to be the biggest issue achieving a tight pattern. I ended up dripping candle wax on the Hevi crimps to help prevent the buffer from leaking in my cargo pants pockets, something the customer shouldn't have to do to fix a manufacturing issue...

Here's my only Hevi-13 #7 pattern I can find, it was through the same JH choke at .660 and my 1300 with the 22" barrel. My original factory dipped bottomland H&R single will do similar numbers with the same JH choke.

[Fullfan]

I can remember being happy with 190-200 in the 10@40 from the Federal Heviweight #7's. That load was and still is devastating. I have since moved on to hand loading TSS for my 20's.  even without trying I can get 280-300 in any of my 4 guns.  I just have a problem leaving things alone....

[davisd9]

130 hits in a 10" circle at 40 yards is more than enough to kill a turkey ethically.  100 in the 10" is what the rule is.  I remember stepping 25 yards and shooting a coke can.  If it had 10 pellets or so we moved back to 30 and so on until you felt there were not enough pellets in the can.  I probably made better decisions in my shots before I knew about circling holes in paper.

My issue with Hevi is not that there are adequate numbers, but as price rise pattern numbers dropped.  I always shot Hevi 3.5 2.25 oz 6s.  My first patterns averaged 225 which is more than needed, but the last box I bought I paid $15 more for the box and the pattern was 140.  Nothing changed except what Hevi did.  I will not buy anything from them any more because I am not chasing lot numbers or paying premium money for shells that I can go buy a cheap box and do about the same thing with.

[ChesterCopperpot]

I just have a problem leaving things alone....

That's ones of the things I love most about most of us on this forum. Like I said above, we're tinkerers who just can't leave well enough alone.

130 hits in a 10" circle at 40 yards is more than enough to kill a turkey ethically.  100 in the 10" is what the rule is.

Most assuredly. Just as pie plate groups at 100 are good enough to kill deer. But for the same reason I want my rifle to shoot cloverleaf patterns, I want to know what each shotgun is fully capable of. I never shot any of the older HEVI. Never shot any until now. But if I can't get the numbers up I surely won't be buying more.


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[TauntoHawk]

I never achieve the patterns or bench mark numbers that get posted around here but I flatten birds just fine.

I'm not much in to tinker though I set up a shotgun, rifle, bow to kill and be proficient with it but nothing I do with any of those will wow people on the internet.

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[Greg Massey]

I never chase numbers on paper , i just kill turkeys ... Ok i will add , as long as my pattern with gun, shell and choke are pretty much uniform, that's all i care about .. i really don't worry so much about the numbers in 10 inch circle..  I don't want my pattern to tight for up close or far out , just good even pattern.

[ChesterCopperpot]

Killing turkeys isn't so much the point of my question. First birds I killed were from a fixed modified New England Firearms Pardner SBI 20ga with Winchester Super X #5s. I only ever "patterned" it at 25yds. Killed them dead dead just fine. The point of my question is wanting to achieve the most possible out of a given shotgun, choke, and shell combination and where one sets those numbers.


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[paboxcall]

Killing turkeys isn't so much the point of my question. First birds I killed were from a fixed modified New England Firearms Pardner SBI 20ga with Winchester Super X #5s. I only ever "patterned" it at 25yds. Killed them dead dead just fine. The point of my question is wanting to achieve the most possible out of a given shotgun, choke, and shell combination and where one sets those numbers.


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I think of it less in a number and more as a percentage - getting to 50% of the load downrange in the 10" circle. Using pellet count per ounce data from the internet...

If there are 512 #7 Hevi-13 in a 2oz. load, and you're putting 50% of that load in a 10" circle at 40 yards or 256 hits, that's a smoking pattern.

If there are 588 #9 TSS in a 1 5/8th oz. load for the 20 gauge and you're putting 50% of that load in a 10" circle at 40 yards, or 295 hits, again a strong load / choke combo.

If there are 444 #6 lead shot in a 2 oz. load and you're putting 22% of those in a 10" circle at 40 yards, you're at the minimum of 100 hits. If you tweak the choke and get closer to 50% in the 10" ring at 40 yards with 220 or so hits, well that's going to be a great lead load.

If 50% of the downrange load is inside that 10" ring, and the balance 50% is evenly dispersed in the 20" ring around it, good to go. Anything greater than 50% inside the 10" ring at 40 yards might start to get tricky and too tight at 20 yards. About striking balance.

[PalmettoRon]

We've come a long way from what was available 40 years ago! I think you're right to pattern until you get a pattern that you have 100% confidence in. There's nothing wrong with striving for perfection. As Vince Lombardi said,"Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

[ChesterCopperpot]

Killing turkeys isn't so much the point of my question. First birds I killed were from a fixed modified New England Firearms Pardner SBI 20ga with Winchester Super X #5s. I only ever "patterned" it at 25yds. Killed them dead dead just fine. The point of my question is wanting to achieve the most possible out of a given shotgun, choke, and shell combination and where one sets those numbers.


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I think of it less in a number and more as a percentage - getting to 50% of the load downrange in the 10" circle. Using pellet count per ounce data from the internet...

If there are 512 #7 Hevi-13 in a 2oz. load, and you're putting 50% of that load in a 10" circle at 40 yards or 256 hits, that's a smoking pattern.

If there are 588 #9 TSS in a 1 5/8th oz. load for the 20 gauge and you're putting 50% of that load in a 10" circle at 40 yards, or 295 hits, again a strong load / choke combo.

If there are 444 #6 lead shot in a 2 oz. load and you're putting 22% of those in a 10" circle at 40 yards, you're at the minimum of 100 hits. If you tweak the choke and get closer to 50% in the 10" ring at 40 yards with 220 or so hits, well that's going to be a great lead load.

If 50% of the downrange load is inside that 10" ring, and the balance 50% is evenly dispersed in the 20" ring around it, good to go. Anything greater than 50% inside the 10" ring at 40 yards might start to get tricky and too tight at 20 yards. About striking balance.

That's a super helpful way of looking at it. I think that's a rule I can get behind.


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