Nebraska/Slam Questions

[Phattkopp]

Hello folks,
I "lurk" on this board quite a bit, but post rarely. That being said, my boss wants to take a grand slam, and has asked me to tag along. I was like, "HECK YEAH!!" We're looking at Heritage Outfitters in Nebraska. I'd appreciate this board's thoughts and input on Merriams, Rios, and hybrids that they post on their webpage. I am not a greenhorn to turkey hunting, but I am new to paying someone for turkeys. I know here in Florida once you cross the state line there are outfitters charging A LOT to kill what they say is an Osceola. I'm not bashing anyone, just hoping for some turkey advice. Thank you for any input.


Phattso 

[GobbleNut]

I suspect there are places in Nebraska that you can kill pure specimens of either the Merriam's or Rio Grande subspecies.  However, anyplace that the two have been in close contact for more than a few generations, it is likely that all of the turkeys in that area are hybrids, regardless of their outward appearance. 

Folks make the assumption that, if a gobbler has light tips on the tail fan, it is a Merriam's,...and conversely, if it has buff tips on the fan, it must be a Rio.  Not at all true!  There are wide variations in that coloration in pure specimens of both subspecies,...but especially in Merriam's.

I have killed a lot of specimens of either subspecies from the hearts of their native ranges and I can tell you that they have vastly different appearances,...but those differences are in the feather iridescence, not the whiteness or buff-ness.  Rios have a distinctive copper/gold iridescence that true Merriam's do not have,...and that iridescence is most obviously seen in the rump feathers.

Having said all of the above, nobody should get all butt-hurt over whether the turkeys they kill and plug into a spot in their grand slam are pure representatives of each subspecies.  The fact is that there are getting to be fewer and fewer places where "pure" subspecies even exist anymore.  Because of the subspecies transplants and introductions that have taken place over the last thirty or forty years, the purity of subspecies in a lot of places is practically nonexistent now. 

To be sure, there are still those places, but anybody that is real concerned about killing a "true" grand slam of the four subspecies needs to look closely at where they go to achieve that.  Quite honestly, though, anybody that claims they have "Merriam's, Rio's, and hybrids" all in the same area is just fooling themselves,...and the hunters that might go hunt there.

[Phattkopp]

Thanks a million for the input! I hope someone can also give me a reference on that particular outfitter. Again, thanks for the insight! I agree with you about the hybrid deal, and someone claiming to have "pure strain" of any species. We go through that down here in Florida NONSTOP about Osceolas.

Thanks!
Phattboy

[fallhnt]

A true merriam will have short legs,thus short beards too. Doubt you'll find both ,merriam and rio,in the same area. I enjoy NE early archery season and would recommend hunting there to get a start on a slam,if that's your thing.

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[GobbleNut]

A true merriam will have short legs,thus short beards too. Doubt you'll find both ,merriam and rio,in the same area. I enjoy NE early archery season and would recommend hunting there to get a start on a slam,if that's your thing.

Again, I will throw in a few comments here based on my wildlife educational background and personal observations over the decades.  I preface these by stating that I do not consider myself to be "the final authority" on any of this, but just my thoughts on these matters.   

I agree that Merriam's turkeys appear to have shorter legs.  I don't believe that is because they actually have shorter legs, but look that way because their "underbelly" feathers are longer and more dense than the others.  This is again a characteristic that I suspect is an evolutionary trait because of the climates they historically evolved in. 

I also agree that you are not likely to find Merriam's and Rios in the same place,...unless they are very recent transplants that have not had time to hybridize.  The two subspecies (or others) can live side by side in suitable habitat, but they will very quickly interbreed and within a few generations, any such populations will almost assuredly consist of mostly, if not all, hybrid individuals. ...And that will be so even if the individual turkeys show visual characteristics that favor one or the other subspecies.

I think the "problem" with wild turkey subspecies, as I understand it, is that they will willingly interbreed with each other.  In other words, when intermixed, I'm not sure they favor breeding with individuals of their own subspecies over those of the other,...at least they apparently don't do that based on the evidence I have seen.  That evidence suggests that wild turkey subspecies relatively quickly hybridize when intermixed.

In the early generations of intermixed subspecies, there may well be both pure individuals of both subspecies, as well as hybrids.  However, that will most likely be due to the random mating within those populations that pair up "pure" parents of the different subspecies.   Over time, the likelihood that there will be pure specimens in those mixed populations becomes increasingly more slim. 

Recognizing that I have probably lost of lot of folks that started reading this by now,...I will cease...   

[TonyTurk]

I killed a Rio in central Oklahoma a few years back that had pure white tips, as white as any Merriams you can find.  Based on his location he couldn't have been anything other than a Rio.

[PalmettoRon]

GobbleNut very accurately states the differences between Merriams and Rios. I think Rios have the prettiest body feathers. They tend to have a lot of green and copper colored hues present. Merriams body feathers are duller to me, more black than anything.

I've hunted public land Merriams in AZ and/or NM since 1991 almost without fail. Where I hunt is no where near a Rio and almost geographically impossible for there to be a mix of these 2 subspecies. Despite this, I've killed plenty of Merriams in this area that had more of a buff color to their tail feather tips.

[GunRunner]

I can't offer you any specific outfitter recommendations, but I can tell you that you are making the right decision to seek out a local guide service rather than trying to hunt public lands on your own.

Five of my hunting buddies and I....all from Georgia...traveled to NW Nebraska a couple of years ago to hunt Merriam's or Merriam hybrids for 6 days. We decided with our collective hunting and woodsmen skills that we did not need a local guide service so we would hunt public lands on our own.  That was a mistake as we had 6 full days of zero encounters. The gentlemen that rented us a cabin tried to tell us to hire a guide, but we ignored him. We saw plenty of birds from the highway on private land but none in the public hunting areas.

I am sure that we could have had some success had we had more time to explore and learn the public hunting areas we were hunting. But when you take a group of 60 year old southern hunters that have been chasing birds in mixed woodland forests and the hardwood bottoms of the South all of their lives and then drop them in the open hill country of Nebraska .....well we were ducks out of water. We had a sad retreat back home.

If you have a limited amount of time .....go ahead and layout the cash, shorten the learning curve, and have a successful hunt.

GunRunner

[Dtrkyman]

I have spent a ton of time in Nebraska, birds where I hunt are definitely hybrids, however there are many birds that just have more characteristics of one or the other, Those Merriam type birds look the part and even sound different.

I think the NWTF changed their stance on slams if that matters. I have three species and unless something changes drastically I am not going to try for an Osceola just to say I got one, even with a public trip down there the time and money it would involve I could hunt four states in the midwest and kill a pile of birds!

[Phattkopp]

Trust me I am with you guys on the "hybrid" theory. I was invited by my boss to go, and as you know, it's hard to turn down a trip to kill a turkey.....ANYWHERE!! 
Do any of you boys have experience with Heritage Outfitters? I'd like to get some info from some of yall that have used them, and not use the references sent by the outfitter. The website looks good, of course they all do, but the videos seem legit with some shows taping there.
I truly appreciate and value your opinions. Thanks for the input....


Phattboy

[GobbleNut]

Yup, if it's a spring gobbler hunt, I would be "all in"!  I would certainly keep doing what you are doing in terms of looking for references.  I know nothing of this outfitter.  As we have discussed above, my only "red flag" up front would be their comment about having "Merriam's, Rio's, and hybrids".  Unless they are running their clients all over the country to hunt, the birds you will kill hunting with them will almost certainly be all hybrids, no matter what they tell you. 

But regardless, I wouldn't turn down a good turkey hunt,....my theory is "never look a gift gobbler in the mouth"   

[husker]

Hello folks,
I "lurk" on this board quite a bit, but post rarely. That being said, my boss wants to take a grand slam, and has asked me to tag along. I was like, "HECK YEAH!!" We're looking at Heritage Outfitters in Nebraska. I'd appreciate this board's thoughts and input on Merriams, Rios, and hybrids that they post on their webpage. I am not a greenhorn to turkey hunting, but I am new to paying someone for turkeys. I know here in Florida once you cross the state line there are outfitters charging A LOT to kill what they say is an Osceola. I'm not bashing anyone, just hoping for some turkey advice. Thank you for any input.


Phattso 

I'm a Nebraska resident. The first thing I would tell you is that as others have said the Turkeys here are hybrids.  You will find birds that look like Rios in the southeast part of the state and birds that mostly resemble Merriams in the northwest part.   The second thing is that I wouldn't pay a guide.  We have Turkeys in every county and a lot of farmers/landowners will let you hunt.  Just find areas that look like they might hold birds and get on it.  They'll most likely be there.


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[silvestris]

What beat me is that people are still hung up on the slam nonsense.  I have been hunting Easterns for 45 years and the Slam business has never appealed to me, especially the "Royal Slam".  Really, any of the slams.

[Phattkopp]

Sylvestris--I am with you on the folks and their "need" to fulfill a slam. It has been sinful what folks are charging/paying for an Osceola down here in our neck of the woods. It has gotten a little ridiculous, well, not a little ridiculous, but CRAZY ridiculous. I have chased birds down here and killed nothing but Osceolas for 40 years. That being said......I WAS NOT going to turn down the offer!!
Thanks for the input.


Phattso

[silvestris]

Just have fun; that is what it is all about.