"They don't shoot well in my gun."

[FullChoke]

Guys,

We have all heard, or used, this phrase when discussing the patterning results of different gun/choke tube/shotshell combinations. Why does there seem to be such a dramatic difference in the patterns from one gun to another even when they are the same model from the same maker? There can't be that much variability in the manufacturing process that makes one gun shoot so much differently from the next one that comes off of the same machining line.

This doesn't even include after-purchase processes such as polishing the barrel.

Just curious.

FullChoke

[Gobble!]

I have always wondered this as well. I would need to see the results some people talk about to truly believe it. I think in many instances its a POA POI issue.

[R AJ]

You can buy two identical shotguns ,put in the same choke and shells from the same box and get different results. One may like 5s and not 6s or shoot 00 buckshot and one puts 8 of 18 in a circle while the other places 12 or more at the same distance. Most of the targets you see are from 10" circles drawn around the densest portion of the target.
As Larry Potterfield says, "That's the way it is."
If rifled barrels were like this then they would be a hard sell.
If you can figure a way to get every model to shoot POI/POA and have within 5% of the same numbers gun to gun you could become very rich.

[stinkpickle]

While the barrel, choke, and shell are probably manufactured within tight tolerances individually, such tolerances are multiplied when using the components together.

[mmusso]

While the barrel, choke, and shell are probably manufactured within tight tolerances individually, such tolerances are multiplied when using the components together.

[FullChoke]

So then, are some of the variances that we see due to shotgun barrels being machined to 'looser' tolerances than say a rifle barrel? The "accuracy" of a rifle barrel is determined by how well it can repeat placing a shot in the same location each time. Are we, as shooters, trying to achieve the same repeatability of shot placement and performance with a firearm and ammunition that were never designed not manufactured to do this? We have also introduced 1 more variable to the equation (choke tube) that can have a profound effect on pattern and POA/POI repeatability, with all other things being equal (which they are not likely to be anyway).

Can the notion of accuracy and predictable repeatability be applied to shooting a shotgun, or are we fooling ourselves and wasting our own time and money trying to achieve an unobtainable goal? 

FullChoke

[3" 870 Shell Shucker]

This is a good thread.   

I'm one of those people who simply can't accept the notion of buying and trying a bunch of different shotguns, only to find that none of them shoot close to POA.  That's Not acceptable.

I currently own 4 shotguns.
 
Two 12 Gauge Pumps that both shoot from Dead On to @3" High using the Factory Bead, depending on the choke, shell, and distance.  This is acceptable.

One 12 Gauge Single Shot with a Fixed Modified Choke that originally hit 1' Low and 1' to the Left.  I bent the barrel to shoot Dead On at 25 Yards.  That's Not acceptable.

One 20 Gauge Pump that shoots about 6" Low at 40 Yards if using a tight turkey choke (I tried 2 different turkey chokes), so I just put a Factory Full in it, and lost 99% of my interest in the gun.  That's Not acceptable.

[SumToy]

They is  more then one reason. 

[OLE RASPY]

Dont believe everything u see.I can shoot a piece of paper and post it on here and tell u it was was at 40 yards, how do u know what yardage i shot at.
But every gun is different.

[Old Gobbler]

Too many reasons to list, I have observed some strange "numbers" posts , with simply unbelievable results - here is a good try

Weather - temp, wind , humidity etc..

Barrel condition - residue, temp of barrel , fowling

Inherent variances in shogun shells--- I know this has been beaten to death , and somewhat exaggerated , there is gonna be a difference in shotgun shells from one shell to the other {in the same box}I don't care what lot, pallet or year they were made- If you don't believe me go buy whatever brand shell you wish it could be a 50 cent dove load or a 8$ premium turkey shell - shoot a whole box of them at a patterning board at the same session and you will be hard pressed to find the same count twice and even if you do the vast majority will be off in count

Seeing isn't believing - just cause somebody posts up a picture doesn't tell the whole story - some people are very honest in admitting that they posted up one high scoring shell , whilst others tend to shoot a whole box , and post only the best one up I call this the "Cool Whip Syndrome" cause they are always trying to "Top" the other guys on the forum with a better pattern.

40 yards isn't exactly 40 yards on the internet - not all guys carry a yard stick or laser range finder - often times , they pace it off and that isn't exactly a forthright ---As a example .....my 48 paces equals 40 yards -- if I were to pace off 40 steps and go onto the internet I would be showing of some nice 33-34 yard patterns now wouldn't I ? To further complicate issues if I was to come back the following season and properly measure there would be a dramatic change in performance now ....

Some people straight up exaggerate -  I'm not indicating or pointing fingers but several times I have seen a post with simply incredible results, often times I was considering spending some $$ to get that choke or ammo , then I copied and blew up the quality picture and spent a few minutes counting some holes only to find out that person should have payed more attention to the "Count" on Sesame Street - money saved- "Cool Whip " again-

A combination of these above mentioned things will lead people to believe they can simply purchase "bolt on performance" to a identical shotgun only to be let down -also people being led on to believe they can shoot way out there ranges  - All of these things will lead to a situation that we observed this spring where people were jumping up and down that they shot at a gobbler {long shot}and that bird went down with issues or got away....these types of threads have proven to be a nuisance

People  may have been lead on to think they have a good rig that will go to XX yards but in reality their hunting situation is going to be a cold, damp humid , situation with fog , a few blades of grass , a side wind and all those other things we don't have at the pattern session    


I feel most if not all these issues are perception issues on what is to be expected out of a turkey gun , even a very good one - not every day is a perfect blue bird day that a person choose to pattern thier gun , and not every shell in a hunters chamber is that persons  one lucky  "high" shell - even with all good intentions people are being mislead by others-




--Shannon


 

[FullChoke]

Great post Shannon. 

FullChoke

[3" 870 Shell Shucker]

I once took 4 shells from the same box, and patterned them at 35, 40, 45, and 50 yards.  I had more hits at 50, than I did at 45.  There is a variance between shells, and there always will be.

[Todd1700]

Great Post Shannon. I have had the same thoughts as you as I looked at some posts here. Not that I don't believe that "some" people are getting the incredible numbers they post but man the sheer number of people that claim to be doing it with over the counter shells is astounding.

I don't claim to be an expert but I have gone through some serious patterning sessions for about 5 years now with 4 different guns, (a Beretta, a 870 SM and 2 Mossbergs). I've polished barrels. I've tried half a dozen premium chokes in each. Indian Creeks, Pure Golds, Rhinos, Jelly Heads, etc, etc. Cleaned thoroughly in between shots.  I've shot every kind of denser than lead shot that they sell in America through those guns. Even purchased some non-ported chokes so I could try the Federal denser than lead stuff without messing up the flight control wads. In addition I have had 3 buddies of mine pattern their guns along with me on numerous occasions using many of the same chokes and shells in their guns. Up until yesterday the most pellets any of us had ever put inside 10 inches at 40 yards was 238 with a Nitro duplex shell and a Rhino choke out of my 870 SM. I finally broke that record yesterday with 278 inside 10 at 40 with a Hevi-Shot choke and a load of Hevi-13 straight 7's out of my 835. But even yesterdays new one shot record is feeble and pathetic compared to the claimed numbers of the average poster here.

So what am I? Unlucky? Inept? All I know is that I have always laser ranged to insure that I was indeed at 40 yards and made honest, accurate counts. Those two things I can assure you. In my more cynical moments the thought creeps into my mind that perhaps actually shooting from 40 yards;  and honest counting of the holes might just be what's holding me down. LOL!

[Ctomp1974]

   Great posts! I'd say poi/poa is an issue with most at the beginning. Then you have the members that always have the absolute highest numbers with whatever combo they put together. Magic Touch maybe, but I'd bet a coca-cola the something is off.(yardage, circle size, math skills, etc.)
   When I end up with some crazy high numbers, its either a lucky shell or its my walked off 40yds turns out to be 37-38, same effect when my pattern counts are low(42-43 yds) when you get close to the 40 yd line, every yard make a big difference.
     I was fortunate enough to get some accurate-honest info a few years ago to get mine dialed in. I have tested about everything you can through an 835, SBE & stoeger M2000, but usually don't offer an opinion to the other members due to the fact that you get the "one upper" or  "fanboy" in the crowd that may want to argue.

Clint

[3" 870 Shell Shucker]

There's no reason to be crying a river if you "only" get 175 with #6, or 250 with #7 Hevi13.

Welcome to reality.

Now, I'm sure that 300 is doable.  I once got 280 with a 3" shell myself.