How does weather affect the lek?

[ChesterCopperpot]

You may not approve of my dislike of a term that barely applies (because it's not an accurate depiction) but...

I could honestly care less about your dislike of terminology. What I disapprove of is the needless, tiresome, and loathsome nature of some people on this forum who continuously make the conscious decision to throw smart-alecked jabs rather than contribute anything meaningful to the conversation. That's it. If the topic is, "Is exploded lek an accurate description of turkey mating habits," sure, tell me why you hate it. But that wasn't what it was about. You knew what was being discussed and instead of just contributing something meaningful or just scrolling past you went out of your way to say that the people using that term were, "armchair biologists." It's needless and childish and useless to the forum.


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[Hobbes]

I have contributed twice on my feelings on whether a gobbler will moved based on weather.  I dislike the term because I've seen a real lek and what turkeys do is not the same behavior.  My apologies for riling you.  I'm out.

[Sir-diealot]

Forgive the stupid question, I have never heard the term "lek" before, what exactly does it mean and what is it derived from? Thanks.

This is a sharptail grouse lek in Montana that I got some video of around 10 years ago.  There are probably lots of better videos out there.

https://youtu.be/kH9TzKa6fp4

Thank you much. I was out coyote hunting with dogs not quite a month ago and as I was driving down the road with a passenger with me I saw these 5 birds to my right going into the woods. One had the feathers up on its neck and the other male had it's tail feathers up like a turkey. I asked my passenger what they were because one I did not get a great look as I was driving on a snowy/icy road and for two I had never seen them before and he informed me they were grouse. Now mind you I have heard them in the woods and knew exactly what they were because of that drum beat but I had never laid eyes on one let alone 5 before. I only wish I could have stopped and taken pictures, they were kind of weird looking to me with the neck feathers up in particular as well as the tail feathers on the second one. I am guessing the others must have been hens. Was a neat sight to see.

Thank you as well Paulmyr, for some reason it would not let me quote you.

[Paulmyr]

Forgive the stupid question, I have never heard the term "lek" before, what exactly does it mean and what is it derived from? Thanks.

This is a sharptail grouse lek in Montana that I got some video of around 10 years ago.  There are probably lots of better videos out there.

https://youtu.be/kH9TzKa6fp4

Thank you much. I was out coyote hunting with dogs not quite a month ago and as I was driving down the road with a passenger with me I saw these 5 birds to my right going into the woods. One had the feathers up on its neck and the other male had it's tail feathers up like a turkey. I asked my passenger what they were because one I did not get a great look as I was driving on a snowy/icy road and for two I had never seen them before and he informed me they were grouse. Now mind you I have heard them in the woods and knew exactly what they were because of that drum beat but I had never laid eyes on one let alone 5 before. I only wish I could have stopped and taken pictures, they were kind of weird looking to me with the neck feathers up in particular as well as the tail feathers on the second one. I am guessing the others must have been hens. Was a neat sight to see.

Thank you as well Paulmyr, for some reason it would not let me quote you.

Sounds to me like you've seen some ruffed grouse. I'd hate to use the terminology exploded Lek for their mating rituals for fear of being labeled an armchair biologist.

Ruffed grouse are similar to turkey in that they pick areas throughout the forest to display, unlike shartptail/sage grouse who show up to a particular area year after year. Ruffed grouse males choose the best position through out their home range to display and attract hens. Home range may be a bad choice of words as I think the birds are fairly nomadic. The posistions include a log of some sort that he can dig his claws into and beat his wings starting from slow and moving to a climax creating the drum beat you hear in the spring.

We've had one the past few years hanging around the cabin. Sometimes when the moon is bright his drumming will continue through the night. They are persistent little buggers. He's got a few logs scattered around the perimeter of the cabin he likes to use. Curious if he'll still be around this year. I hear them drumming in most places I turkey hunt in Mn and Wis.

You can hear the drumming in the fall although not as prevalent as in the spring. I'm not sure what the fall drumming is about. Possibly a territorial thing.

[Sir-diealot]

Forgive the stupid question, I have never heard the term "lek" before, what exactly does it mean and what is it derived from? Thanks.

This is a sharptail grouse lek in Montana that I got some video of around 10 years ago.  There are probably lots of better videos out there.

https://youtu.be/kH9TzKa6fp4

Thank you much. I was out coyote hunting with dogs not quite a month ago and as I was driving down the road with a passenger with me I saw these 5 birds to my right going into the woods. One had the feathers up on its neck and the other male had it's tail feathers up like a turkey. I asked my passenger what they were because one I did not get a great look as I was driving on a snowy/icy road and for two I had never seen them before and he informed me they were grouse. Now mind you I have heard them in the woods and knew exactly what they were because of that drum beat but I had never laid eyes on one let alone 5 before. I only wish I could have stopped and taken pictures, they were kind of weird looking to me with the neck feathers up in particular as well as the tail feathers on the second one. I am guessing the others must have been hens. Was a neat sight to see.

Thank you as well Paulmyr, for some reason it would not let me quote you.

Sounds to me like you've seen some ruffed grouse. I'd hate to use the terminology exploded Lek for their mating rituals for fear of being labeled an armchair biologist.

Ruffed grouse are similar to turkey in that they pick areas throughout the forest to display, unlike shartptail/sage grouse who show up to a particular area year after year. Ruffed grouse males choose the best position through out their home range to display and attract hens. Home range may be a bad choice of words as I think the birds are fairly nomadic. The posistions include a log of some sort that he can dig his claws into and beat his wings starting from slow and moving to a climax creating the drum beat you hear in the spring.

We've had one the past few years hanging around the cabin. Sometimes when the moon is bright his drumming will continue through the night. They are persistent little buggers. He's got a few logs scattered around the perimeter of the cabin he likes to use. Curious if he'll still be around this year. I hear them drumming in most places I turkey hunt in Mn and Wis.

You can hear the drumming in the fall although not as prevalent as in the spring. I'm not sure what the fall drumming is about. Possibly a territorial thing.

I do believe that would be correct, I know we have Ruffed Grouse and Spruce Grouse here in NY

[NCL]

Armchair biology 101:

The displaying part and hens selecting a male is as far as it goes.  I've never witnessed a gobbler defending territory.  He'll wallop a bird that gets near a hen but he's not marking out boundaries like a coyote or defending a ridge.  I've also never witnessed weather making him leave hens or whatever core area he typically calls home except for snow that could push birds lower in elevation.  He will however, regardless of the idea that he gobbles and calls them in, follow those hens to hell and back if they take a mind to visit.  One thing that I know keeps him in an area is those hens.  As they establish a nest, they aren't straying too far from it, so he'll remain within the area that the hens use within some distance of their nest.

Hunting pressure is more likely to move him than anything in my opinion, but even then it's likely that he's just zipped it up instead of moved on.

Again, you can call it anything you'd like. Anything that makes you happy. We all know what I'm talking about. Choose whatever term you want. Answer the question: will he leave hens and/or disregard subordinance as a result of extreme weather patterns? Temp dropped 50 degrees from two days ago, the wind is howling, and there's an inch of snow on the ground this morning. I'm at 3,500ft. It's opening day. If hens have established nesting areas and he's dead center, does he leave the hens to escape the weather?


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The essence of the questions would seem to be which is the stronger innate drive, the survival drive to escape the weather or the drive to procreate the species.  This would seem to be a time issue or duration issue would probably be more accurate. I would think if the weather has just changed the gobblers would be used to weather changes, even severe ones, so the procreation drive would stay the dominate drive whereas if it was several days or weeks in duration and the other survival factors are diminishing, such as  food, then the survival factor may become dominate. in my area we usually do not have extreme weather variations so this is strictly an opinion and is not based on any first hand observations. Certainly and interesting question. 

[ChesterCopperpot]

Again, you can call it anything you'd like. Anything that makes you happy. We all know what I'm talking about. Choose whatever term you want. Answer the question: will he leave hens and/or disregard subordinance as a result of extreme weather patterns? Temp dropped 50 degrees from two days ago, the wind is howling, and there's an inch of snow on the ground this morning. I'm at 3,500ft. It's opening day. If hens have established nesting areas and he's dead center, does he leave the hens to escape the weather?

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The essence of the questions would seem to be which is the stronger innate drive, the survival drive to escape the weather or the drive to procreate the species.  This would seem to be a time issue or duration issue would probably be more accurate. I would think if the weather has just changed the gobblers would be used to weather changes, even severe ones, so the procreation drive would stay the dominate drive whereas if it was several days or weeks in duration and the other survival factors are diminishing, such as  food, then the survival factor may become dominate. in my area we usually do not have extreme weather variations so this is strictly an opinion and is not based on any first hand observations. Certainly and interesting question.

I think you're right. And that seemed to be what I observed. They didn't move as much as I'd initially thought they might. They seemed to just hunker down and ride it out.


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[Paulmyr]

I have contributed twice on my feelings on whether a gobbler will moved based on weather.  I dislike the term because I've seen a real lek and what turkeys do is not the same behavior.  My apologies for riling you.  I'm out.

For me the terminology Exploded Lek seems like an fairly accurate depiction of what happens in the turkey woods each spring. All the Turkey's I'm aware of flock up at some point in the winter. Family groups join together as well gobblers and Jake's. As breeding season arrives these flocks disperse across the country side to locations where the mating rituals will take place.  These locations, at least in my experience, are consistent from year to year. I can return to large areas each spring and expect Gobblers to be in certain locations displaying/gobbling on a regular basis. Last season I returned to an area I had not hunted in 20 years. I found Gobblers in the exact locations I found them years before. In areas with high turkey densities the locations dominant Gobblers choose may overlap. That right there can make for some very interesting hunting as gobbler groups based around separate dominant toms squabble amongst each other.

Gobblers choose specific positions within these locations with the best positions claimed by the dominant birds. Subordinates are subjugated to the lesser positions. These positions tend to be fluid, they may change from hour to hour or day to day depending on a host of factors, weather, food sources, phase of the mating season,  and hunting pressure are but a few.

During the period before actual breeding takes place a pecking order is established between the gobblers that choose these locations for mating. That pecking order has a tendency to need reaffirmation frequently through the mating season. That pecking order is not based on the presence of hens. Toms will fight amongst themselves quite regularly to maintain the hierarchy of the pecking order throughout the mating season enabling the most dominant Tom to take up the best positions and allowing him to attract and breed with the most hens before they move off to breed with another.

In summary, In my experience, gobblers show up to the same locations year after year for mating purposes. There is 1 dominant Tom within these locations. Gobblers choose positions in these locations to display/gobble to attract hens for breeding based on a hierarchy. The most dominant Tom with the best position breeds the most hens. The hierarchy of the gobblers in the location needs affirmation on a regular basis.

Now I maybe wrong and the turkey's in your area behave differently than what I've experienced and described here but I see a strong correlation to what is taken place in the video you've provided. In the video I see male sharptail grouse gathering in a specific location (Lek) for the purpose of mating, I see the reaffirmation of a pecking order that most likely has been established since the 1st couple males showed up to the Lek allowing the most dominant male the best position. If I cared enough I might be able to watch closer and see hens there to choose mates. The only thing I see different is the Lek in your video encompasses and area of about 30yds and the positions aren't fluid ( most likely due to the size of the lek) I know from the leks around our cabin they can reach multiple acres in size.

So other than the size of the Lek, maybe you could explain to me the drastic differences between what you've experience and what I've described above.