Personal musings

[Happy]

So, I have been thinking....   I know it's dangerous when I do that, but I couldn't help it. I am beginning to think low gobbler numbers are a big part of the problem with dropping turkey numbers. Hear me out before you call me an idiot. Afterward, feel free to call me an idiot if you deem it fitting.
The last few years, the gobblers in my neck of the woods have been locked on hens from about mid-March to mid-June. I am beginning to think that there ain't enough gobblers to get the job done in a shorter window  and flood the landscape with nests. That's one of the factors that helps nesting success. Instead, we have a long strung out spring and summer of weirdness. I think we have lower nesting success as a result. I am not a deer nut, but I know that a more balanced buck to doe ratio leads to a shorter and more intense rut, and I can't help but wonder if that would be ideal on the turkey front as well. I am by no means a biologist and have zero professional training. It's just a thought I have been mulling over.
I done jacked up the title and probably did a horrible job of explaining it, but hopefully, a few get the gist of what I am saying.

[arkrem870]

Most studies point to high numbers of hens initiating nests.

[GobbleNut]

I think your musings have merit, Happy, and are at least worth considering...considering the state of turkey populations in some areas of the country. In previous discussions on the matter, it has been pointed out that there HAS to be a tipping point where the number of gobblers in a population is inadequate to ensure breeding saturation...whether it be in the short term or the long term.

It is also reasonable to suggest that if that breeding saturation occurs in the short term...which logically would probably occur with more gobblers on the landscape...that (a set number of) predators would have a harder time destroying all of them. Conversely, over a longer nesting cycle, that same number of predators might have more impact. Again, I couldn't say for sure...but it is worth consideration (and hence, I will not declare you to be an idiot...in which case you would be joining the club  )

It is pretty obvious that managers/agencies are searching for answers at this point. I suspect this possibility has already crossed their minds. Regardless, it doesn't hurt for those of us here to "muse " about it.   

 

[Cowboy]

I'll throw this out there...I've read and have heard that jakes are sexually mature, BUT the sperm is infertile at that age. I believe this to be true. That being said, I've heard and read that around 80% of hens will attempt to nest...this number seems high to me, however if a jake is infertile, why would a jenny hen not be infertile at that age also ? Or do they mature at a quicker rate than a jake does ? Side note. My brother has a couple of domestic turkeys. One is an mature hen and the other is a jake. Only 2 he has. The jake will gobble, strut, spit and drum, and follow her around. However, he has not been seen breeding the hen.


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[Greg Massey]

So my question is why did I see more gobblers running together and hens out in the field and the gobblers didn't even pay any attention to each other? Also the hens really didn't pay any attention to the gobblers in like years past. I have seen Jakes do more interaction with gobblers as the gobblers were following them around this past season.

I had a group of 3 - two year old gobblers still running together this past spring.  No hens in the picture at all ...

I really don't have any answers.  Happy

But I will say I did see more gobblers / Jakes this year .. No problem with the numbers in my area, just not much breeding activity at all... JUST WEIRD ...

I had a member on the forum tell me before his opening morning season, he was hearing 10 different gobblers in his hunting area, after opening day and he did managed to kill one, and the next days following he didn't hear a gobbler and he hunted for several more days.

[Neill_Prater]

Good thoughts, but I think the opposite is true in areas I hunt. Too few hens. Twenty years ago, it was not unusual, common perhaps, to see one to three gobblers with a half dozen, or more, hens. That doesn't happen anymore. For example, my first local gobbler was from a flock of 3 adult gobblers, anywhere from 2 to as many as 9 jakes at any given time, and either 2 or 3 hens. I observed them multiple times both before, and after the season opened.

This seems to be the trend everywhere I hunt. I recall years ago, hunting a bird in Alabama for multiple days, but couldn't call him in. I inadvertently walked into the whole flock in high grass as I was walking out and they took flight across the field. A single gobbler and 12 hens. I haven't seen that, anywhere, for at least a decade.

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[Happy]

So my question is why did I see more gobblers running together and hens out in the field and the gobblers didn't even pay any attention to each other? Also the hens really didn't pay any attention to the gobblers in like years past. I have seen Jakes do more interaction with gobblers as the gobblers were following them around this past season.

I had a group of 3 - two year old gobblers still running together this past spring.  No hens in the picture at all ...

I really don't have any answers.  Happy

But I will say I did see more gobblers / Jakes this year .. No problem with the numbers in my area, just not much breeding activity at all... JUST WEIRD ...

I had a member on the forum tell me before his opening morning season, he was hearing 10 different gobblers in his hunting area, after opening day and he did managed to kill one, and the next days following he didn't hear a gobbler and he hunted for several more days.

Maybe you got a bunch of strong, independent hens that don't need no gobbler Greg. Or maybe they have horrible personalities, and the gobblers would just rather batch it and hang out.I get what you saying. I think this year has been "weird" for a lot of folks. My observations are more about the long breeding season i have been noticing for the last few years.

[arkrem870]

I suspect the same reason we are seeing 5-1 male mallards to female mallards in duck season. Hens are getting killed on the nest at higher rates than hunters are killing drakes/gobblers.
Turkey hens aren't hunted but in many places their numbers are still struggling.

This topic is serious business

[bbcoach]

So my question is why did I see more gobblers running together and hens out in the field and the gobblers didn't even pay any attention to each other? Also the hens really didn't pay any attention to the gobblers in like years past. I have seen Jakes do more interaction with gobblers as the gobblers were following them around this past season.

I had a group of 3 - two year old gobblers still running together this past spring.  No hens in the picture at all ...

I really don't have any answers.  Happy

But I will say I did see more gobblers / Jakes this year .. No problem with the numbers in my area, just not much breeding activity at all... JUST WEIRD ...

I had a member on the forum tell me before his opening morning season, he was hearing 10 different gobblers in his hunting area, after opening day and he did managed to kill one, and the next days following he didn't hear a gobbler and he hunted for several more days.

Maybe you got a bunch of strong, independent hens that don't need no gobbler Greg. Or maybe they have horrible personalities, and the gobblers would just rather batch it and hang out.I get what you saying. I think this year has been "weird" for a lot of folks. My observations are more about the long breeding season i have been noticing for the last few years.

Is this REALLY a long breeding season?  Hear me out.  The females are the drivers of most of the wildlife species.  They are the dictators of what happens IMO.  The hens, in this case, are the ones that go to the gobblers when they are ready to be breed.  The gobblers are there for pomp and circumstance (Show and Go).  The hen will only SQUAT when she is ready to have her eggs fertilized.  The gobblers only surround themselves with as many hens as they can and are DRAGGED all over the fields and woods by the hens not the other way around.  They only follow what is available to them and will only search when they are completely alone.  IMO the gobblers, want and have company to try and breed as many hens as possible but how many of us have ACTUALLY seen hens being bred.  I have read that most of the time, breeding takes place very discreetly.  Personally, I have only seen the deed done 1 time and that was this season.  The hen squatted, the gobbler mounted her and she immediately launched out from under him before he could even finish.  GREAT DISCUSSION GUYS!

[Happy]

I am talking about a 3 month window. I realize that hens that lose nests will re-breed, but it just seems like it is stretching out longer and longer than what it was several years ago.  My pea brain can't help but think it can't be good for nesting success rates either.

[deerhunt1988]

I suspect the same reason we are seeing 5-1 male mallards to female mallards in duck season. Hens are getting killed on the nest at higher rates than hunters are killing drakes/gobblers.
Turkey hens aren't hunted but in many places their numbers are still struggling.

This topic is serious business

Boom. Recent research is finding the alarmingly high predation rates on hens. And recent research is also showing that HEN SURVIVAL is one of the top contributing factors to population growth!

As far as "delayed breeding". I'm confident its not from lack of adult gobblers (in MOST areas. In some small localized scenarios it could be). A longer breeding window is more likely caused by weather and nest predation. You'll see this near large river bottoms that are severely impacted by flooding.

[arkrem870]

I suspect the same reason we are seeing 5-1 male mallards to female mallards in duck season. Hens are getting killed on the nest at higher rates than hunters are killing drakes/gobblers.
Turkey hens aren't hunted but in many places their numbers are still struggling.

This topic is serious business

Boom. Recent research is finding the alarmingly high predation rates on hens. And recent research is also showing that HEN SURVIVAL is one of the top contributing factors to population growth!

As far as "delayed breeding". I'm confident its not from lack of adult gobblers (in MOST areas. In some small localized scenarios it could be). A longer breeding window is more likely caused by weather and nest predation. You'll see this near large river bottoms that are severely impacted by flooding.

Predation is the elephant in the room. Nearly all studies point back to this.  In Arkansas you can overlay a poult production chart and a fur price chart.....they follow the same trajectories.

Unfortunately trapping is one of the hardest things for dnr to implement. In arkansas we introduced a predator control permit that allows us to take predators year round. Every state should have a similar program. I also advocate for loaner trap programs. Workshops. I am open to discuss bounties / earn a tag options with predator tails/hides. Etc.

Dnr's go the route of delayed seasons.etc and more regulations because they can be done with the stroke of a pen and don't require the work of mass predator removal. And it also doesn't have the optics of straight up killing nest predators and throwing them in a ditch.

Thats why it's critical to at LEAST own a dozen dog profs and run them on your properties a few times a year within your states guidelines.

[bbcoach]

I suspect the same reason we are seeing 5-1 male mallards to female mallards in duck season. Hens are getting killed on the nest at higher rates than hunters are killing drakes/gobblers.
Turkey hens aren't hunted but in many places their numbers are still struggling.

This topic is serious business

Boom. Recent research is finding the alarmingly high predation rates on hens. And recent research is also showing that HEN SURVIVAL is one of the top contributing factors to population growth!

As far as "delayed breeding". I'm confident its not from lack of adult gobblers (in MOST areas. In some small localized scenarios it could be). A longer breeding window is more likely caused by weather and nest predation. You'll see this near large river bottoms that are severely impacted by flooding.

Predation is the elephant in the room. Nearly all studies point back to this.  In Arkansas you can overlay a poult production chart and a fur price chart.....they follow the same trajectories.

Unfortunately trapping is one of the hardest things for dnr to implement. In arkansas we introduced a predator control permit that allows us to take predators year round. Every state should have a similar program. I also advocate for loaner trap programs. Workshops. I am open to discuss bounties / earn a tag options with predator tails/hides. Etc.

Dnr's go the route of delayed seasons.etc and more regulations because they can be done with the stroke of a pen and don't require the work of mass predator removal. And it also doesn't have the optics of straight up killing nest predators and throwing them in a ditch.

Thats why it's critical to at LEAST own a dozen dog profs and run them on your properties a few times a year within your states guidelines.

If this is True and it probably is, why doesn't the DNR's take the blinders off and STOP ALL hen hunting.  Many States allow hens to be legal especially during fall seasons.  We hunters know, the female of the species is the key to the populations.  If you want to increase numbers, stop killing and protect the females and if you want to decrease numbers increase your quotas on the females.

[Happy]

I am seeing the exact opposite. Plenty of hens compared to the amount of gobblers. Hence, what seems to be an extended breeding season.

[arkrem870]

From a biological standpoint the harvest of hens in limited falls seasons is considered insignificant. The same is said about Jake harvest. It's biologically insignificant

This was the stance for many years in the turkey community and regulations limiting these two were considered feel good regulations. That said I support the protection of hens and Jakes though it probably doesn't mean a lot from a production standpoint point in the grand scheme. We also can't ignore the hunter satisfaction part of regulations which are biologically insignificant for raising turkeys and to reduce hunter conflict.  These type regulations are the newest flavor of the week.