Turkey Numbers

[Ihuntoldschool]

Timber Harvest.

[Tom007]

Same where I hunt and pressure is the furthest thing from the problem.
With all the studies that have taken place its clearly nest predators. I
bet we can track it to the decline of the fur industry. NYC stopped the sale of furs about 10 years ago and now trapping numbers are way down. A few examples from the studies one I saw they had trackers on 79 nesting hens and only 1 nest was successful. Another had cameras on something like 160
ground nests that includes other birds like grouse etc. but of the 160 nests 1 was successful. Unless we all start trapping ground predators there is nothing we can do.

Actually new info is coming to light. Yes predators are a problem but the lack of proper habitat is forcing hens to use sub par nesting and brood rearing areas making them extremely vulnerable to predation. Some studies indicate good nesting and brood rearing cover is not used very often by predators. Good nesting cover is not often used by egg eaters and good brood rearing cover is not often used by polt eaters as well as provides security from avian predation.

There is also evidence that correlates the drop in turkey numbers with the drastic loss of early successional cover over the last 20 plus years to invasive grasses and poorly kept pine forests.

Also it sounds like some areas in the south experiencing low turkeys are subsidizing predators by the use of corn and Lots of it. These feeding stations concentrate predators and prey into small areas and and keep predator populations unnaturally high. Well above the natural carrying capacity of the land. Disease runs rampant at these corn piles a well.

Studies have also shown that without the proper habitat in place trapping predators is not very effective.

Some biologist estimate only something like 7% of the habitat available to turkeys is good brood rearing cover. Pretty pathetic when you think about it.

Don't stop trapping but if turkey numbers are going to rebound in many areas habitat improvement needs to be job one on a public and private land. Put the right habitat in place and the benefits of predator control are exponentially greater. Without the proper habitat it won't take long for trapped predators to be replaced and the turkeys will still be vulnerable to them.

If you want more turkeys burn it or plant clover.

I have to say, I've seen this first hand. Last year towards the end of my season I was driving on the road leaving my hunting spot. I spotted a hen just off the road along a fence. She was laying down, I thought she was hurt. I pulled over away from her. As I walked to her, she stood up and underneath her was 6 poults. They scurried a bit, I immediately retreated and left for coffee. I drove by an hour later, she was bedded again a few feet from that spot. There was nice growth along this old fence that ran along the road for a stretch. She was smart enough to pick this area for her poults, seemingly safer from ambush because of the fence and the brushy, grassy growth around it. Very interesting to me she picked this spot outside the woods close to the road. Lends merit to Paulmyr's thoughts above...

[Twowithone]

In my state of Pa. my scouting was slightly down. State wise Im sure it,s down cause they,ve altered some late seasons.They took the rifle out of the Fall season dont know if this was a political move cant see it as a Biological move. But if we as hunters love our Turkey hunting you better start shooting them Coyote,s.

[eggshell]

I agree with almost all the perspectives shared, but I strongly agree with the habitat findings. We've always had predators and turkeys done well. I do think raccoons are a much more prevalent since the fur market crashed. However, if we have good habitat I think their impact is much less. I also think Human encroachment is impacting turkeys. More and more land is being swallowed up and developed in some form.

When it comes to habitat, most landowners just do not give a dam. If it cost money to do or it doesn't make them money they aren't interested. One way to augment this is for conservation agencies and sportsmen's groups to pay up for habitat projects. Put money in their hands and landowners will do it. This is expensive, but every little bit helps. I would like to see some public information posted on web site as to what good habitat looks like and how to get it established. Research is useless paper if findings are never implemented. I know NWTF has made some efforts towards this, but I suspect they spend way more on member recruitment and social programs. I won't knock salaries, because someone has to do the work. I would like to see a program like the CRP program for forest land.

[Tom007]

I agree with almost all the perspectives shared, but I strongly agree with the habitat findings. We've always had predators and turkeys done well. I do think raccoons are a much more prevalent since the fur market crashed. However, if we have good habitat I think their impact is much less. I also think Human encroachment is impacting turkeys. More and more land is being swallowed up and developed in some form.

When it comes to habitat, most landowners just do not give a dam. If it cost money to do or it doesn't make them money they aren't interested. One way to augment this is for conservation agencies and sportsmen's groups to pay up for habitat projects. Put money in their hands and landowners will do it. This is expensive, but every little bit helps. I would like to see some public information posted on web site as to what good habitat looks like and how to get it established. Research is useless paper if findings are never implemented. I know NWTF has made some efforts towards this, but I suspect they spend way more on member recruitment and social programs. I won't knock salaries, because someone has to do the work. I would like to see a program like the CRP program for forest land.

Great points here......

[WildSpur]

Fur prices from what I hear are worthless so there are not as many trappers anymore.  Former trappers are a dying generation.  Though bald eagles are a great thing...I am not sure if we all know how much of an impact they have on other game populations?   Overall it seems like we are not the only predators out there. 

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[deerhunt1988]

If I knew of an area with good or rebounding turkey numbers I sure wouldn't post about it on here given today's turkey hunting climate.

It ain't all doom and gloom, I'll say that much.

[ChesterCopperpot]

Almost all things negatively impacting turkeys ties back to one thing—people. Whether that be habitat related issues or predation. If I could stop one thing and one thing only it would be the introduction of "wildlife corn" onto a landscape. All of it carries aflatoxins. All of it is devastating on birds, particularly young birds. All of it creates concentrated disease sites for flocks. All of it creates highly effective ambush points for predators. All of it increases the carrying capacity of a landscape for potential nest raiders. It's a selfish endeavor that benefits nothing in the natural world. The corn being marketed and sold as "wildlife corn" is literally a product that regulations prohibit being sold to any other animal—not humans, not chickens, not cattle, not any form of livestock. And some studies show measurements of ten tons per square mile being introduced annually by hunters. There's a great deal out of our control, but this quite simply is not.

I think another aspect that state agencies struggle with, particularly my state of North Carolina, is managing populations at a state level. NC continues to advertise growing populations and while that may very well be true at the eastern end of the state, western North Carolina is experiencing the same dramatic declines that are occurring across the rest of the southeast. They've got to start managing populations with this in mind. State agencies have to limit out of state pressure. They have to prohibit the harvest if bearded hens. They have to deeply consider bag limits, and if that means one bird in places then I'm fine with that. If that means certain areas become a draw, I'm fine with that. I care more about the bird than I do my hunting them.

In the end, if you've got money to fund and or support habitat related work I think that's one of the wisest and helpful things you can do. But outside of that, do the common sense things. Don't put out corn for wildlife, period. Self regulate in states that lack adequate regulation. Do the things that you know you can do to help. I care much more about the man who does this work without any desire of recognition than I do the man who struts around the NWTF convention with spur necklaces hanging down his chest bragging about how many birds he's reaped.


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[lalongbeard75]

The  average gobbler harvest is 30% of the population.And that's every state. It's not non residents and it's not the local hunters. You could kill every gobbler but one in an area and if the hens successfully nest the population would still increase.
Habitat is a problem but common sense would tell you predators are a worse problem. For near predators to have a nest to eat the hens have to lay the eggs, so the hens are obviously laying eggs in even poor habitat. Take care of the nest and poult predators and the turkeys will work out the rest. And predator control is not shooting one coyote every 5 years. It's full scale war.
How many here would shoot a bobcat or coyote if they had a gobbler responding and one walked by?
I kill every single opossum, raccoon, bobcat, coyote, wild hog and snake I come across. I'm not interested in that particular states opinion of bobcats or seasons on them. If the state allows bobcat hunting I keep the skin, if not I throw some leaves on it and keep walking. I'll run a coon over in a second opossum as well. It's full scale war. Them red tail hawks that like to come land in a tree when you yelping at a Turkey? Keep some lead #6s in your vest so you don't waste your 12$ super shells lol

[ferocious calls]

I agree with almost all the perspectives shared, but I strongly agree with the habitat findings. We've always had predators and turkeys done well. I do think raccoons are a much more prevalent since the fur market crashed. However, if we have good habitat I think their impact is much less. I also think Human encroachment is impacting turkeys. More and more land is being swallowed up and developed in some form.

When it comes to habitat, most landowners just do not give a dam. If it cost money to do or it doesn't make them money they aren't interested. One way to augment this is for conservation agencies and sportsmen's groups to pay up for habitat projects. Put money in their hands and landowners will do it. This is expensive, but every little bit helps. I would like to see some public information posted on web site as to what good habitat looks like and how to get it established. Research is useless paper if findings are never implemented. I know NWTF has made some efforts towards this, but I suspect they spend way more on member recruitment and social programs. I won't knock salaries, because someone has to do the work. I would like to see a program like the CRP program for forest land.

There are programs for forested lands as well. USDA and NRCS will provide info. Our property is enrolled. 5 or more acres qualify for it.

Free trapping instruction for any OG members that are serious about controlling predator numbers. 50 years on the trapline.

[Tom007]

Almost all things negatively impacting turkeys ties back to one thing—people. Whether that be habitat related issues or predation. If I could stop one thing and one thing only it would be the introduction of "wildlife corn" onto a landscape. All of it carries aflatoxins. All of it is devastating on birds, particularly young birds. All of it creates concentrated disease sites for flocks. All of it creates highly effective ambush points for predators. All of it increases the carrying capacity of a landscape for potential nest raiders. It's a selfish endeavor that benefits nothing in the natural world. The corn being marketed and sold as "wildlife corn" is literally a product that regulations prohibit being sold to any other animal—not humans, not chickens, not cattle, not any form of livestock. And some studies show measurements of ten tons per square mile being introduced annually by hunters. There's a great deal out of our control, but this quite simply is not.

I think another aspect that state agencies struggle with, particularly my state of North Carolina, is managing populations at a state level. NC continues to advertise growing populations and while that may very well be true at the eastern end of the state, western North Carolina is experiencing the same dramatic declines that are occurring across the rest of the southeast. They've got to start managing populations with this in mind. State agencies have to limit out of state pressure. They have to prohibit the harvest if bearded hens. They have to deeply consider bag limits, and if that means one bird in places then I'm fine with that. If that means certain areas become a draw, I'm fine with that. I care more about the bird than I do my hunting them.

In the end, if you've got money to fund and or support habitat related work I think that's one of the wisest and helpful things you can do. But outside of that, do the common sense things. Don't put out corn for wildlife, period. Self regulate in states that lack adequate regulation. Do the things that you know you can do to help. I care much more about the man who does this work without any desire of recognition than I do the man who struts around the NWTF convention with spur necklaces hanging down his chest bragging about how many birds he's reaped.


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X10 here Dave. The corn feeding seems like it can help spread disease through the game that feeds on it. Deer with CWD eat at a corn pile, kernels covered in saliva when it drops back on the ground seems like it could spread disease. Turkeys also could be effected from contaminated corn pile/feeders. I'm not a biologist by no means, but if they ban natural deer urine scent due to this concern, it makes sense that corn feeding could be a transmitter too

[JMalin]

Every year, the same sob stories and everyone becomes an expert on the issue. It's stale. Go out and hunt. Learn a new area. Pick up a couple of extra shifts to pay to hunt with a reputable outfitter or lease ground.

[ChesterCopperpot]

X10 here Dave. The corn feeding seems like it can help spread disease through the game that feeds on it. Deer with CWD eat at a corn pile, kernels covered in saliva when it drops back on the ground seems like it could spread disease. Turkeys also could be effected from contaminated corn pile/feeders. I'm not a biologist by no means, but if they ban natural deer urine scent due to this concern, it makes sense that corn feeding could be a transmitter too

Any time that you unnaturally congregate animals in high densities you've created potential disease sites, whether that be prions from CWD and deer or whether that be avian pox or a host of other diseases with turkeys. It's inevitable. But I think the things folks aren't even thinking about with corn are things like creating ambush points for predators, or increasing the carrying capacity of a landscape for scavengers. If you've got ten acres that could naturally support five raccoons, what does that carrying capacity move to when you introduce 50lbs of corn every other week, or even once a month? Now you've got ten acres that can hold twice that initial carrying capacity. It's a HUGE issue.


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[ChesterCopperpot]

Every year, the same sob stories and everyone becomes an expert on the issue. It's stale. Go out and hunt. Learn a new area. Pick up a couple of extra shifts to pay to hunt with a reputable outfitter or lease ground.

I filled my tags. My success rate has nothing to do with my concern for the resource. And if you're not concerned with the resource there's a problem.


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[mikejd]

In my state of Pa. my scouting was slightly down. State wise Im sure it,s down cause they,ve altered some late seasons.They took the rifle out of the Fall season dont know if this was a political move cant see it as a Biological move. But if we as hunters love our Turkey hunting you better start shooting them Coyote,s.

Coyotes kill some birds but 1 racoon can eat hundreds of eggs.

Put out a feeder and you may see a coyote but at that same feeder you will likely see 20 racoons at a time. My fried has camera pics of 2 deer and 25 racoons at the same feeder.