I didn't write this. It's from Hunter Johnson, a natural resource technician in Arkansas working at their Game and Fish. Long and thought provoking.
===================================================================================
"Turkey hunters- You've called in that longbeard, he's drumming and strutting in front of you and you've got a bead on his neck. This is the moment you've been waiting for, it's all come together and fixing to happen.....but do you know what it's taken to get here? Most turkey hunters don't know. Most turkey hunters believe that turkeys just do their thing and they will be there to shoot come spring. I was born into a long line of turkey hunters, I killed my first bird 37 years ago when I was 10 years old and have hunted most years since. I thought I knew turkeys, but I have recently became a "turkey nerd". I manage a fairly large farm for turkey habitat, and a few years ago I set out to learn everything I could about turkeys....their behavior, breeding habits, nesting, brood rearing, roosting and feeding. My research led me to Dr Mike Chamberlin, one of the top turkey research biologist in the nation. Dr Chamberlin has devoted his life to turkey research and has recently came out with solid research that debunks most everything I thought I knew about turkeys. Yesterday I was listening to a podcast titled "Are you a producer or consumer", and it got me thinking, is the average hunter doing anything to help the declining turkey population that is currently going on nation wide? Probably not! Let's look at a few things we have recently learned from Dr Chamberlin's research:
1. The "pecking order" that goes on during the breeding phase- did you know that wild turkey hens have a pecking order that they breed in? Starting in the early spring, male turkeys get vocal, they gobble trying to establish their dominance amongst other males, hoping that hens will pick them for breeding. In the mean time, hens are establishing their dominance amongst each other as they choose a male to mate with. All this goes on for several days to several weeks. This is why we often hear a lot of gobbling in the early spring. Once breeding time arrives, a male "gobbler" may have several hens that have chosen to breed with him.....and him alone. The boss hen gets to go first, but only after she takes her sweet time and is good and ready. Then the next hen and so on till they are all bred or just run out of time in the breeding phase and decide to stop. So what happens if the gobbler the hens have chosen gets shot? Do they just breed with the next gobbler in line, kind of like deer do? No, the hens start all over! They re-evaluate all the gobblers in the area again. This often forces hens to travel to other flocks of turkeys to choose a gobbler to bred with, and yep you guessed it, the hens have to once again re-establish their dominance with other hens in that group to establish breeding order. What if all this takes place again and that gobbler gets shot....yep they start it all over once again. In spite of all of this, statistics show that about 75% of mature hens will get bred. Not a bad number right?.....wait, we ain't done!
2. Nesting- so now 75% of our hens have been bred. Not a bad number if we have 100 hens in the area, but sucks if we only have a few! So these hens have been traveling to their nesting site and laying 1 egg per day, this can last for about 2 weeks till her entire clutch is laid. Once she lays her last egg she starts sitting on them. She sits there for 23 hours each day, only leaving the nest to feed and use the bathroom. She sits there on the ground on top of her eggs day and night, through rain, thunderstorms and even snow fall in some areas, for 28 days. This leaves her vulnerable to everything in the woods.....coyotes, bobcats, snakes, coon, possum, rats, skunks, hogs, tractors, skidders, fire, extreme weather; basically everything can destroy her nest! Because of this there is only a 25% chance that 1 or more of her eggs will hatch!! Ok, now the numbers are getting real! But wait, we still ain't done!
3. Brood rearing- After 28 days of the hen sitting on her nest, the eggs start hatching. Once the last egg has hatched the hen leaves the nest sight with her newborn poults following, she's in search of adequate brood rearing habitat.....a place with bare ground so the little chicks can move around freely, a place with short overhead cover to hide the poults from owls and hawks, and a place with lots of bugs because 70% of a poults diet comes from bugs for the first few weeks. The place the hen chooses to raise her poults has to have all 3 of these things. Statistics show that the further she has to travel to find this spot drastically reduces the poults survival rate to a point that at having to travel 1000 yards to find adequate brooding habitat equals zero survival of her poults! Ok, we all know that's a challenge in itself, but let's assume the hen and all of her poults made it safely to adequate brood rearing cover. Now they have the next 2-4 weeks to try and survive on the ground. They mainly hunt bugs by sight which keeps them actively hunting for food over the next few weeks. Owls and hawks are sitting on limbs waiting on their chance to attack from above. Coyotes, Bobcat, foxes and even coon are lurking in the bushes around them waiting on their chance to attack. Landowners are running around with tractors and bush hogs mowing everything so it looks "pretty". But still these aren't their number one problem, the worst problem is that they can't regulate their body temperature! The morning temps are still in the 40's and 50's on good days in a lot of cases, now imagine that front moving in where it is cold, cloudy and drizzling rain for 3-4 days in a row....this is their number one killer! In fact, it's so bad that we can normally only expect about 25% of these young poults to survive the first 2-4 weeks till they are able to fly up to a limb! Once they are old enough to fly up to a limb their survival rates drastically increase and we can start breathing a sigh of relief!!
So think about this- how many hens do you have now?....75% of those hens get bred, 25 % of those bred will have at least 1 egg hatch, 25% of those newborn poults will survive long enough to fly up to a limb. Now assume that only 1/2 of these poults are males and now those males have to survive for 2 years before you can put your shotgun sights on him like we started this story out with!
Wow!! Did you have any idea this was all so complicated? I didn't have any idea till recently. It's no wonder turkey numbers are declining, in fact it's a wonder we still have any turkeys at all! These aren't sustainable numbers for a steady turkey population.
So, why are turkeys declining? It's death of 1000 cuts! What can we do????......The best answer is better nesting/brood rearing habitat and allowing more gobblers to bred before they are killed. So how do we get better habitat across the state?
For private landowners, this means educating ourselves first on what better turkey habitat is, then rolling up our sleeves and getting busy making it. For public land, it's slightly different but this is where your help is needed the most!! Since we can't manage public land ourselves, we have to support those that can. All across the nation Game and Fish departments have heard this latest research and are re-evaluating their turkey regulations as we speak. We need to do all we can to help them help us! We have to educate ourselves enough to know that closed canopy mature hardwoods have very little benefit to turkeys and how silly we sound griping about timber cutting and burning as both are necessary for good turkey habitat! Instead, we have to push for them to continue to create better nesting and brood habitat, insist on later season dates so more hens have time to breed, stop shooting bearded hens and things like only 1 gobbler per week can help...... support anything that can help these gobblers breed more hens each spring. But perhaps the most important thing we as hunters can do is to realize our own greed and that it's ok to not "tag out" every year. When I was a kid there was a covey of quail in most of the fence rows and ditch banks, I never dreamed a day would come that we didn't have quail to hunt, yet here we are and for a lot of the same reasons the turkey are declining. Those of you that still have a small covey of quail on your property, would you go out and shoot them? Heck no you wouldn't, because then you wouldn't have any! But you realize that as long as you have a few quail there is a chance that number can grow. We are headed that way with turkeys, and we are headed there pretty fast! Let's do something before it's too late! So examine yourself, then ask yourself this question.....am I just a consumer or am I also a producer? HJ"
Excellent post. Some things to ponder.
He's not wrong but ours is set dry late. I'm further south than SC and our season opens April 22. Seeing signs of molting on opening day means breeding is seriously waning.
State biologist says it's this or no season.
Very good post.
I wish a Mississippi season would not start until April 1.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I agree , good post. I rather have gobbling turkeys and hens each year as to not having any at all. Clover food plots plays a big part also in offing food and bugs etc year round.
Great post. I've been hearing and reading a good bit about his new research. I know Pa is going through this now with their late start to the season. Lots of resistance for guys wanting to start in April versus beginning of May. I believe the position of the game commission and biologist is to put the resource first. The problem with that is the declining hunting numbers.
Here in Tennessee they have put the money first. Seems they even consider non reaident license sales ahead of the resource. Manage for the turkeys and everything else will take care of itself.
Quote from: wchadw on April 26, 2020, 12:59:13 PM
I wish a Mississippi season would not start until April 1.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It's coming.....
Seemingly against all odds, incredible.
The dumb-asses here in CT just ok'd all day hunting hours coupled with 5 turkey tags, on any property, private and/ or state (has been separate tags for years). I have been fortunate enough to get to experience every spring since 1986 in the woods chasing these birds. The decline in wild turkey populations here in CT has been more than evident for at least the last 20 years and here they increase the pressure many times over. I have no idea why. SMDH. FINGERS CROSSED IN CT. :help:
Unfortunately everything is a business these days, hospitals, churches, schools, and even the conservation departments. Oftentimes many loose sight of the reason they exist in the name of the dollar.
Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
The primary problem is that are too many hunters, many who have invented some novel methods in their quest for the birds. But is always primarily just their presence that creates the problems of both the turkey hunter and the turkeys. It will probably take near extinction to reduce hunter numbers signiificantly. This is the reality of the sport. As the old man who started me out said, "Keep your mouth shut, there ain't enough turkeys for everybody."
Quote from: Candyman on April 26, 2020, 02:14:28 PM
Quote from: wchadw on April 26, 2020, 12:59:13 PM
I wish a Mississippi season would not start until April 1.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It's coming.....
I'd be fine with it. Keep down on some of the out of state hunters hitting the first open state and the first few weeks are still cold anyway. The turkey population in the state wildlife areas has taken a big hit in last 20 years or so
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Georgia opens on or around March 21st each year. You probably won`t have to hunt hard to find wildlife biologists, Dr. Chamberlain included, who feel that`s at least a good two weeks too early. I personally would like to see a later start and a reduced limit to two birds from three for two or three seasons so we could begin to judge impact.
great post.
Great post, I would like to se MS. move it back to late March, around the 28 and then cut the last week of season off also..
Quote from: 3bailey3 on April 26, 2020, 08:11:37 PM
Great post, I would like to se MS. move it back to late March, around the 28 and then cut the last week of season off also..
I agree with this. I may catch some heat for saying this but in my opinion do away with youth season also. Open reg season last week of march and end the 3rd week of april.
I so agree Jody, the youth starting on the 10 or 12 is way to early and the only ones that are getting killed late are mostly ambushed.
If Tennessee pushed their seasons up a week, the youth hunt would open April 4th, Opening Day would be the 11th, and the season's end would be May 24th.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Here in Ontario they open our season April 25th every year. Way to early! We start hunting large flocks that some years haven't even started to break up yet. Today I watched 9 toms roosted in one tree and fly down to strut and fight. They were still chasing each other around fighting at lunch time.
In Oklahoma we have split open season . Seven counties in the south east open two weeks after the rest of state . I don't believe this was done for breeding purpose but to reduce pressure on the birds due to declining bird numbers . The limit is one bird total from any one of the seven counties . State wide limit is three with one and two tom counties . This split started approximate ten years ago . No change in bird numbers has been noted that I am aware of . The delayed opening continues , bag limit has stayed the same for this period of time , maybe birds are doing better but I have not seen any evidence nor heard of anything better .
I am just pointing out in this example , I haven't seen that a later opening in this area , with this habitat and with these birds , it doesn't seem to be making a huge impact other than I don't know what population numbers would have done if they had not made a change . These are the Eastern birds where as most of the state are Rio's. This area is also heavy canopy with pine and hard wood . I wonder if the canopy is more of a problem than breeding . They have some food plots , but lack open area .
I am starting to think our department manages more for deer than anything else . Although the deer would benefit from open areas . We have had wma's controlled burns the week of turkey season opening . Wrap your head around that and then talk about breeding and nesting . Not typical but has happened . When asked why they are burning turkey nest , answer was the good outweighed the bad . Obviously not for turkeys .
I think our hens are bred before we open and are laying eggs . Do they continue to breed , yes , but I think they are fertile when we take to the woods . Some ,not all of the hens have left the gobblers for good in the last week of season .
Just a few thoughts from a man with one week left to hunt and still hasn't pulled the trigger . Just thank the good Lord for places to hunt , my health and a magnificent bird .
I hope Mississippi adopts a later season opener soon. Last year, 51% of the total harvest was killed before April 1, which in my experience in North Mississippi is around the date you'll begin to find a gobbler or 2 without his harem, although you'll still find most still breeding then too.
I think some people see the problem as taking to many Tom's from the population. I think the problem is more inline with when they are taken. If taken before or during peak breeding. Hens would normally be nesting/ brood rearing during a shorter time span making them less likely to suffer loss due to predation. An overabundance of prey for a finite number of predators. Only so many will be taken out. Take the Tom's out early and breeding/nesting/brood rearing last for an extended period of time giving the finite population of predators more time to do damage.
Yes hens can and do renest but these second attempts rarely result in success. The later in the season a hen polt is reared the less likely it is to survive until next spring.
The problem is more likely a hen predation/recruitment problem. I believe Dr Chamberlain stated it this way. I hen needs to replace herself with one hen that lives as long as she did for the population to be stable. Every hen in the population needs to do this. As it sits right now that is not happening in states with early season start dates. Once critical mass reached creates a downward spiral. Fewer hens this spring means fewer hens next spring and so on.
This problem will not be reversed by changing the season start dates for a couple years to see what happens. It will take decades for the population to stabilize and grow back to levels experienced in the past. Increased predator populations due to land management and callapse of the fur market I'm sure are not helping the matter but not the main factor contributing to the low hen recruitment levels. So you may still be able to take 3 or 5 Tom's a year with out effecting populations. You just need to do it after peak breeding.
Interesting read. Good food for thought.
If moving the seasons back is the answer, how have population grown so much with these opening dates? It doesn't seem to make sense.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Most populations are dropping from what I read ?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
GPS tags/collars are debunking ALOT of what we once thought about turkeys, Whitetail's, etc. Dr. Chamberlain spoke of another biologist Bill, don't remember his last name, who spoke in a round about way that seasons needed to start later back in the 70's and 80's. I have no problem with a season structure change here in VA, if it's backed by sound science then I'm in full support of it. An issue I feel is impacting turkeys is the absolute lack of trapping, lots of nest predators running around without any worry other than getting run over by a car.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
While on this subject , I was and am in the camp of later opening and earlier closing but started thinking on it. Now in Mississippi , the season dates have been consistent for as long as I can remember. Back in the 80's and 90's we had a large population of birds. They were doing fine. Then the early 2000's it was good but not as good as those past years. Then the birds started declining rapidly. Places that held birds no longer had any. What I noticed was that timber harvest blew up and many expansive hardwood tracts disappeared. Along with that , coon hunting and trapping all but disappeared. On top of that , people started turkey hunting because popularity took off. Now , those are the main changes I have seen between the 80's and 90's up until present. It really does not take a biologist to put 2 and 2 together. Simply look at what changed and find the common donominators. In the big picture I dont think the hunting dates caused the problem. I do think however that the increase in hunters increased the harvest which over all did/does have a impact on the population. Put all these things I have posted together and its a perfect storm for declining numbers. I am all for people wanting to start turkey hunting , but you always hear that we need more hunter recruitment. I completely disagree as in my state it appears the number of people who hunt turkeys now have exploded at the seams and really impacted the birds. Simple math shows that the more people hunting , the larger the harvest. Take into account the turkey killers who do not care about limits , just the number they can kill. Down here in the South I have heard of guys killing a dozen gobblers a season. There were a group of 6 or 7 people who was just arrested recently that was charged with killing over 120 birds in 5 different counties around where I hunt. They were also trespassing while doing that. Thats right , a 120 birds. Throw in youth week in this discussion as well. I know plenty of guys that take kids that can barely hold up a gun and they kill birds. We all know who is killing the majority of these birds. Also a youth is up to the age of 16. I know some of these 13 and 14 year olds that are better turkey hunters than many adults. Its just insane. This is just my 2 cents. Sorry for the long post.
Spitten and drummen, I think there's a mixture of good and bad things in your list.
A solution to more hunters is lower seasonal bag limits. But it really does seem like (at least North) MS's season might overlap with peak breeding. That's a problem. A surfeit of 13-14 year-olds who are master woodsmen isn't, but it is a blessing to the sport.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Ton of factors.. and every state is different. Hell I even see a lot of difference from 2 properties that are only 5 miles apart.
I would first eliminate all fall hunting.... not a big deal for the southern guys as the large majority don't hunt turkey in the fall. But may be an issue for the north east folks. Also.. no hens ever, any state, any season.
Also don't see why more than 3 gobbler tags should be permitted anywhere...
Quote from: AppalachianHollers on April 27, 2020, 11:19:10 AM
Spitten and drummen, I think there's a mixture of good and bad things in your list.
A solution to more hunters is lower seasonal bag limits. But it really does seem like (at least North) MS's season might overlap with peak breeding. That's a problem. A surfeit of 13-14 year-olds who are master woodsmen isn't, but it is a blessing to the sport.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I agree with the comment about 13 and 14 year olds with great woodsmanship. That is awesome. My point to that part was that 13 and 14 year olds get a week jump on adults with the youth season and really dont need that advantage as they are very capable of hunting with the big boys and will hold their own. Youth season was started to recruit young hunters to the sport and had good intentions but like everything else , major abuse seeped into it. As far as reduced bag limits , It most likely wont change anything very much because like I said previously , there are some turkey killers that do not care what the limit is. I gave the example above about the handful of people that killed a 120 birds. Im not kidding about that. They killed 120 Toms , hens and jakes. Sickening.
Quote from: wchadw on April 26, 2020, 04:25:44 PM
Quote from: Candyman on April 26, 2020, 02:14:28 PM
Quote from: wchadw on April 26, 2020, 12:59:13 PM
I wish a Mississippi season would not start until April 1.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It's coming.....
I'd be fine with it. Keep down on some of the out of state hunters hitting the first open state and the first few weeks are still cold anyway. The turkey population in the state wildlife areas has taken a big hit in last 20 years or so
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Contact mdwfp, it's on the website. I got a response in a few days. Also, the out of state license costs should be the same as what others would charge us from MS.
Quote from: WorkingBirds on April 27, 2020, 11:42:11 AM
Quote from: wchadw on April 26, 2020, 04:25:44 PM
Quote from: Candyman on April 26, 2020, 02:14:28 PM
Quote from: wchadw on April 26, 2020, 12:59:13 PM
I wish a Mississippi season would not start until April 1.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It's coming.....
I'd be fine with it. Keep down on some of the out of state hunters hitting the first open state and the first few weeks are still cold anyway. The turkey population in the state wildlife areas has taken a big hit in last 20 years or so
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Contact mdwfp, it's on the website. I got a response in a few days. Also, the out of state license costs should be the same as what others would charge us from MS.
I honestly think the State only cares about the revenue from out of state license sales. I also believe thats why season opens so early here. It gets guys from out of state that are chomping at the bit to come on down. Increase of out of state license sales generates very good revenue.
Quote from: Spitten and drummen on April 27, 2020, 11:47:38 AM
Quote from: WorkingBirds on April 27, 2020, 11:42:11 AM
Quote from: wchadw on April 26, 2020, 04:25:44 PM
Quote from: Candyman on April 26, 2020, 02:14:28 PM
Quote from: wchadw on April 26, 2020, 12:59:13 PM
I wish a Mississippi season would not start until April 1.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It's coming.....
I'd be fine with it. Keep down on some of the out of state hunters hitting the first open state and the first few weeks are still cold anyway. The turkey population in the state wildlife areas has taken a big hit in last 20 years or so
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Contact mdwfp, it's on the website. I got a response in a few days. Also, the out of state license costs should be the same as what others would charge us from MS.
I honestly think the State only cares about the revenue from out of state license sales. I also believe thats why season opens so early here. It gets guys from out of state that are chomping at the bit to come on down. Increase of out of state license sales generates very good revenue.
If accurate, that`s truly a shame. Just hope that it doesn`t devolve into a tragedy for the birds.
Quote from: Spitten and drummen on April 27, 2020, 11:38:40 AM
Quote from: AppalachianHollers on April 27, 2020, 11:19:10 AM
Spitten and drummen, I think there's a mixture of good and bad things in your list.
A solution to more hunters is lower seasonal bag limits. But it really does seem like (at least North) MS's season might overlap with peak breeding. That's a problem. A surfeit of 13-14 year-olds who are master woodsmen isn't, but it is a blessing to the sport.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I saw that report on those poachers on the news. Absolutely sickening that people like that exist. And as for as license fees go, they should be raised. I have a friend that is a Game warden here. They wrote so many tickets to people from Arkansas they ran out of tickets on a Saturday, a full book of tickets? Come on man. Some people just don't give a crap.
I agree with the comment about 13 and 14 year olds with great woodsmanship. That is awesome. My point to that part was that 13 and 14 year olds get a week jump on adults with the youth season and really dont need that advantage as they are very capable of hunting with the big boys and will hold their own. Youth season was started to recruit young hunters to the sport and had good intentions but like everything else , major abuse seeped into it. As far as reduced bag limits , It most likely wont change anything very much because like I said previously , there are some turkey killers that do not care what the limit is. I gave the example above about the handful of people that killed a 120 birds. Im not kidding about that. They killed 120 Toms , hens and jakes. Sickening.
Quote from: DUCKDIGGLER on April 26, 2020, 02:47:06 PM
Seemingly against all odds, incredible.
The dumb-asses here in CT just ok'd all day hunting hours coupled with 5 turkey tags, on any property, private and/ or state (has been separate tags for years). I have been fortunate enough to get to experience every spring since 1986 in the woods chasing these birds. The decline in wild turkey populations here in CT has been more than evident for at least the last 20 years and here they increase the pressure many times over. I have no idea why. SMDH. FINGERS CROSSED IN CT. :help:
Yeah I am in CT too and have no idea why they went to the 5 bird limit. There own hunter survey showed that the majority of hunters (it was above 80%) would be in favor of a 3 bird limit. I would be fine if they made it 2 and it would be more in line with the other New England states. I just can't believe CT has a better population then any other state in the area. I don't know how much all day hunting will effect the harvest this year, most people seem to pack it in by 8 or 9 as it is but I could see increased pressure in a normal year when people will go out and chase them after work. As far as the season in CT I think it is fine were it is and would not want it moved any earlier.
Quote from: Spitten and drummen on April 27, 2020, 11:38:40 AM
Quote from: AppalachianHollers on April 27, 2020, 11:19:10 AM
Spitten and drummen, I think there's a mixture of good and bad things in your list.
A solution to more hunters is lower seasonal bag limits. But it really does seem like (at least North) MS's season might overlap with peak breeding. That's a problem. A surfeit of 13-14 year-olds who are master woodsmen isn't, but it is a blessing to the sport.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I agree with the comment about 13 and 14 year olds with great woodsmanship. That is awesome. My point to that part was that 13 and 14 year olds get a week jump on adults with the youth season and really dont need that advantage as they are very capable of hunting with the big boys and will hold their own. Youth season was started to recruit young hunters to the sport and had good intentions but like everything else , major abuse seeped into it. As far as reduced bag limits , It most likely wont change anything very much because like I said previously , there are some turkey killers that do not care what the limit is. I gave the example above about the handful of people that killed a 120 birds. Im not kidding about that. They killed 120 Toms , hens and jakes. Sickening.
The poachers who killed 120 birds is so outrageous. I heard rumors about it last year before the story came out and it got my blood boiling. I hope they make an example out of the dumb rednecks responsible, and the news covers it extensively. I mean it has got to be the most egregious case of poaching the state's ever seen, especially of its most fragile wildlife population.
Quote from: Mountainburd on April 26, 2020, 01:18:09 PMI believe the position of the game commission and biologist is to put the resource first. The problem with that is the declining hunting numbers.
Ha...depends on what state you're from!
Quote from: Deafman on April 26, 2020, 09:09:34 PM
Here in Ontario they open our season April 25th every year. Way to early! We start hunting large flocks that some years haven't even started to break up yet. Today I watched 9 toms roosted in one tree and fly down to strut and fight. They were still chasing each other around fighting at lunch time.
Could be anecdotal, but I actually emailed the MNR on this and the biologist told me that the season opens weeks after the peak nesting period in my WMU. Hard to put one date on a province as large as Ontario.
I agree with what the doc said, how can I not he did the work.
However I believe habitat improvements and predator control, particularly nest killers would be easier to pull of?
The southern boy would have a fit if they couldn't hunt early then go north and hunt later in those states!
Illinois moved their season start one week later years ago, and being our season starts on a Monday that delays pressure 5 more days until the second season kicks in, never thought of it in the regard to delay the harvest a bit and not sure that is the reason for it.
As far as bag limits seems there is no such thing for several southern boys that I have heard about! Old timer in Missouri once told me the only seasons around here were salt and pepper! WTH.
Quote from: wchadw on April 26, 2020, 12:59:13 PM
I wish a Mississippi season would not start until April 1.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Agreed! Or at the very least have a south and north zone. I feel like us folks in the northern part of the state at times have the peak gobbling activity at the end of the season. It's not unusual to see HUGE flocks still together during the first 2 weeks of the season.
I would like to see the season just shifted back two weeks. Maybe even do like Missouri and only be able to kill 1 bird the first week of the season? Giving gobblers a little more time to breed
I live in south Arkansas. I own land and hunt in several clubs. Grew up hunting Alabama and Miss. in the 90s. The turkey population is very low here now and I am fine with a later season. This post sounds good but doesn't answer my questions. The habitat and predator mix is about the same for all three states from my experience. So why is the Arkansas population so low? The only difference I can see is it is legal to bait deer in Arkansas now and it was not in Ala or Miss in the 90s. I think if Arkansas is serious about turkeys they should ban hunting deer over bait, do away with the youth season {I believe kids these days are spoon fed enough as it is}, and ban the use of decoys. The changes they made for next year are just noise and won't help all that much The season used to open a week later years ago and here we are again. Why do they think this time will be different? Baiting deer will not be banned due to the money it makes the state. I also think timber companies should be given incentives to burn.
Quote from: saverx on April 28, 2020, 06:19:35 PM
I live in south Arkansas. I own land and hunt in several clubs. Grew up hunting Alabama and Miss. in the 90s. The turkey population is very low here now and I am fine with a later season. This post sounds good but doesn't answer my questions. The habitat and predator mix is about the same for all three states from my experience. So why is the Arkansas population so low? The only difference I can see is it is legal to bait deer in Arkansas now and it was not in Ala or Miss in the 90s. I think if Arkansas is serious about turkeys they should ban hunting deer over bait, do away with the youth season {I believe kids these days are spoon fed enough as it is}, and ban the use of decoys. The changes they made for next year are just noise and won't help all that much The season used to open a week later years ago and here we are again. Why do they think this time will be different? Baiting deer will not be banned due to the money it makes the state. I also think timber companies should be given incentives to burn.
Excuse my ignorance on this but what does baiting deer have to do with the turkey population?
For one thing, disease may be a factor when turkeys congregate around deer feeders. With all "hunters", the participants have to answer the question, "am I a hunter, or a master baiter".
Turkeys come to bait and get shot/poached by deer hunters. Corn is tainted with aflatoxin. Kills said turkey. There is very little difference in habitat types/predators between the 3 states. The correct reason our population is so low, I don't know. I do know the corn baiting is different. Is it a major cause? Don't know. I do know opening the season later and not shooting bearded hens is not going to help much if any. They already tried opening the season later years ago and it didn't change anything.
Ban spring hunting. Limit 1 fall longbeard.
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
Quote from: fallhnt on April 28, 2020, 07:51:35 PM
Ban spring hunting. Limit 1 fall longbeard.
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
:happy0064: What took you so long?
Quote from: silvestris on April 28, 2020, 07:08:23 PM
For one thing, disease may be a factor when turkeys congregate around deer feeders. With all "hunters", the participants have to answer the question, "am I a hunter, or a master baiter".
Lol
Quote from: saverx on April 28, 2020, 07:16:45 PM
Turkeys come to bait and get shot/poached by deer hunters. Corn is tainted with aflatoxin. Kills said turkey. There is very little difference in habitat types/predators between the 3 states. The correct reason our population is so low, I don't know. I do know the corn baiting is different. Is it a major cause? Don't know. I do know opening the season later and not shooting bearded hens is not going to help much if any. They already tried opening the season later years ago and it didn't change anything.
10-4 never heard of such...
Quote from: saverx on April 28, 2020, 07:16:45 PM
Turkeys come to bait and get shot/poached by deer hunters. Corn is tainted with aflatoxin. Kills said turkey. There is very little difference in habitat types/predators between the 3 states. The correct reason our population is so low, I don't know. I do know the corn baiting is different. Is it a major cause? Don't know. I do know opening the season later and not shooting bearded hens is not going to help much if any. They already tried opening the season later years ago and it didn't change anything.
I will say that I absolutely oppose baiting for turkeys. I know from my own observations in Kansas, that the turkey population has decreased in relation to the popularity of baiting. The amount of feeders out in turkey country is sickening. I will say that I think it's primarily related to baiting during the seer season. I think this has changed wintering patterns and kept turkeys flocked up longer than normal due to the easy availability of food. Then you have deer hunters shoot a lot of turkeys and one of the worst contributors to the problem is the outfitter who has a small parcel of good ground and an industrial feeder that concentrates the turkeys and allows for over harvesting in that area. Many other negative issues as well. I'd love to see kansas set up like Missouri for baiting laws and no evening roost hunting.
Quote from: silvestris on April 26, 2020, 04:12:04 PM
The primary problem is that are too many hunters, many who have invented some novel methods in their quest for the birds. But is always primarily just their presence that creates the problems of both the turkey hunter and the turkeys. It will probably take near extinction to reduce hunter numbers signiificantly. This is the reality of the sport. As the old man who started me out said, "Keep your mouth shut, there ain't enough turkeys for everybody."
I agree 100%...if it took moving the season forward I would be in support of it ...however, I personally think our season starts at a good time as ive seen many years like this one where come april first its all down hill very fast and very hard to find a bird. The first 2 weeks have been more excellent to me than not. Ive seen years where hens were sitting on nests opening week on more than one occasion. Our biggest problem in ms is too many hunters period....too many. that's all there is to it. too many non res in the early season coupled with one of the largest turkey hunter populations in the nations just doesn't coincide with the turkeys. Moving the season forward would definelty alleviate some of the oosers, but we would still have too many hunters. Perhaps a combination of bag limit reduction and moving the season forward would be the trick. I don't know, but we have to do something. I hate to say it...but it may get to the point where turkey hunting has to be a draw tag period. That would suck very bad....but if that's what it takes, then that's what it takes. we aren't to that point yet...but its not out of the ball park.
I bet all those cornfields in the midwest is killing those birds with poison corn and diseases. I cant stand baiting but I personally do not believe thats whats decreasing populations. I am a Mississippi lifetime resident born and raised there and agree that its too many hunters now also due to the non residents showing up in truckloads because our season starts weeks before theirs. Thats why I laugh when folks say the hunter numbers are low and we need hunter recruitment. Your state may show that but I will bet you a dollar to a dime thats not the case here.
Quote from: Spitten and drummen on April 28, 2020, 10:34:51 PM
I bet all those cornfields in the midwest is killing those birds with poison corn and diseases. I cant stand baiting but I personally do not believe thats whats decreasing populations. I am a Mississippi lifetime resident born and raised there and agree that its too many hunters now also due to the non residents showing up in truckloads because our season starts weeks before theirs. Thats why I laugh when folks say the hunter numbers are low and we need hunter recruitment. Your state may show that but I will bet you a dollar to a dime thats not the case here.
a man would be a fool to bet money against that. When every gate in 5 miles has a truck or 2 or 3 parked at it...thats too many hunters. There are more people attempting to harvest birds than there are birds harvested. that could be normal...but not when that number is multi fold. We dont need hunter recruitment...we need the opposite. I know the point in the article was you dont have to limit out every year...i agree...but if the hunting pressure is that high...you dont need as many hunters. if you are in a deer camp with 5000 acres, and only about 1500 of that is turkey woods why do you need 25 members turkey hunting that...it doesnt make since but that is the unfortuante norm these days. regulating hunters is far far harder than manipulating the rules/laws and the habitat.
Quote from: silvestris on April 28, 2020, 07:08:23 PM
For one thing, disease may be a factor when turkeys congregate around deer feeders. With all "hunters", the participants have to answer the question, "am I a hunter, or a master baiter".
We got a lot of the latter here in my neck of the woods.
Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
I think the seasons could stay the same but they would have to do away with the crutches. Never was a problem before but to easy for people to kill one now. If you keep the crutches then yeah a lot of states should push the season back 2 weeks
Quote from: turkey_slayer on April 29, 2020, 01:10:08 PM
I think the seasons could stay the same but they would have to do away with the crutches. Never was a problem before but to easy for people to kill one now. If you keep the crutches then yeah a lot of states should push the season back 2 weeks
Not sure about other states but a big part of the problem in MS is that the season opens at least 2 weeks (youth is usually 3 weeks) or more before all the surrounding states so hunters from TN, LA and AL all come over to hunt. There is no restriction for out of state hunters and the license is like $10? more than if you are in state. Bag limit here is 3 across the board which i think is fine. Youth season starts March 7 which the birds are usually still flocked up until close to send of March.
I'm lucky that i have a private spot to hunt and can trap predators and "manage" my turkey population by not killing too many mature birds, especially if there is years where their is bad polt production but the public land folks don't have that luxury. I have seen and heard about out of staters gettng hassled in MS and i am certainly not condoning that kind of activity but i think a big part of it is due to the flood of out of state hunters especially in first couple of weeks. the numbers in MS are suffering mainly in my opinion to over harvesting due to too many hunters and those that do not abide to the 3 gobbler limit.
Quote from: saverx on April 28, 2020, 07:16:45 PM
Turkeys come to bait and get shot/poached by deer hunters. Corn is tainted with aflatoxin. Kills said turkey.
Over the years, I have read the occasional report about commercial feed products (corn and others) possibly containing toxins/chemicals that could be harmful to turkeys/wildlife. It seems odd to me that if this was a widespread issue that the use of these products in feeders and such would have been prohibited by now.
At this point in time, surely this has been investigated by wildlife managers. One can only assume that it has not been shown to be a significant mortality factor in wild turkey populations in general. It would be interesting to see how much effort has been spent by professionals in evaluating this concern.
Quote from: GobbleNut on April 29, 2020, 02:55:55 PM
Quote from: saverx on April 28, 2020, 07:16:45 PM
Turkeys come to bait and get shot/poached by deer hunters. Corn is tainted with aflatoxin. Kills said turkey.
Over the years, I have read the occasional report about commercial feed products (corn and others) possibly containing toxins/chemicals that could be harmful to turkeys/wildlife. It seems odd to me that if this was a widespread issue that the use of these products in feeders and such would have been prohibited by now.
At this point in time, surely this has been investigated by wildlife managers. One can only assume that it has not been shown to be a significant mortality factor in wild turkey populations in general. It would be interesting to see how much effort has been spent by professionals in evaluating this concern.
Feeding deer from feeders is legal (for now) where i hunt. if it was killing turkey or other wildlife would think i would be finding them especially during deer season when they are running. only thing i have noticed with the deer feeders is the wild hogs getting fat.
Money has way more influence than what any biologist thinks. Quail are all but extinct in the south. States give it lip service but there is no money to be made in it. Deer and ducks makes the money in my state. When my state introduced CWD into the deer herd, they wanted to ban feeding to attempt to stop the spread. Deer hunters cried so loudly the state backed down. Insurance companies also lobby for baiting because they don't want to pay when deer are hit by a car. Aflatoxin is real and not located in a corn field. It is a fungus. Look it up. Corn is sold by the pallet and ton year around here. You can go to any grocery store or gas station in my area right now and buy " deer corn". Is it hurting the turkeys? I'm sure it is not helping.
Quote from: wchadw on April 26, 2020, 12:59:13 PM
I wish a Mississippi season would not start until April 1.
I wish Georgia would do the same but I am not holding my breath.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk