On another forum I frequent some info came up that absolutely floored me. Apparently there was a video put out by the Lsu Ag Center that referenced a podcast by Meat Eater and Dr. Michael Chamberlain. It stated that jakes are biologically incapable of breeding hens. I had no idea about that. On property I hunt if I know there is only one adult gobbler on it I will leave him alone just so hopefully he will stick around for the next season. Gives you something to think about next time you decide to shoot that last gobbler on a piece of property.
Please tell me I'm not the only one that had no clue!
i did not know this either.
thanks for sharing
I never heard of it. But I never knew too much to begin with.
I have heard this on and off over the years. Not sure how they concluded that every jake is incapable of semen production,...would like to see the sample size of the study and whether it was undertaken with all subspecies in all parts of the country.
Here's another tidbit that folks should consider when talking about shooting gobblers in the spring. Decades ago, similar studies showed that a single breeding from a gobbler can result in the fertilization of all of the eggs a hen may lay in a spring. That study showed that hens can store viable semen for as long as two months after a single successful breeding.
Assuming both the "infertile jake" study and the "single breeding" study are valid, then the real concern about spring hunting as far as actual breeding is concerned is that the spring hunting season is set after turkeys have had adequate opportunity to ensure that most, if not all, nesting-age hens have been bred.
In reality, when all is said and done, the real problem is not that hens are not getting bred and laying fertile eggs. It is that there is no corresponding nesting success and successful raising of poults to adulthood due most likely to a combination of factors, many of which have been discussed here many times.
Quote from: GobbleNut on April 18, 2020, 10:52:24 PM
I have heard this on and off over the years. Not sure how they concluded that every jake is incapable of semen production,...would like to see the sample size of the study and whether it was undertaken with all subspecies in all parts of the country.
Here's another tidbit that folks should consider when talking about shooting gobblers in the spring. Decades ago, similar studies showed that a single breeding from a gobbler can result in the fertilization of all of the eggs a hen may lay in a spring. That study showed that hens can store viable semen for as long as two months after a single successful breeding.
Assuming both the "infertile jake" study and the "single breeding" study are valid, then the real concern about spring hunting as far as actual breeding is concerned is that the spring hunting season is set after turkeys have had adequate opportunity to ensure that most, if not all, nesting-age hens have been bred.
In reality, when all is said and done, the real problem is not that hens are not getting bred and laying fertile eggs. It is that there is no corresponding nesting success and successful raising of poults to adulthood due most likely to a combination of factors, many of which have been discussed here many times.
I think the biggest problem with hunting disrupting the breeding season is that hens nest at different times through out the spring instead of saturation nesting where all the nest and polt rearing is supposed to happen at the same time. Polts need about 3 weeks before they can roost off the ground. Until that time the nest/polts and the hen are extremely vulnerable to predation. If they are allowed breeding without disruption predators have a smaller time period in which nest/broods are vulnerable.
Interesting post .
I didn't know it before I listened to the pod cast thought Jake's were like fork horn bucks. They might not breed as much, but get lucky every now and then.
That pod cast was very informative. I had no idea how big of a predator owls were or about the complex social structure of turkeys.
Now if they would only allow us to hunt horned owls.
Always assumed Jakes could seal the deal and agree it was a very informative podcast - Dr. Chamberlin was very well spoken.
Not disputing what is said but why do adult gobblers protect their hens from the runts then? They will keep them at a distance or even run them off. Also those same jakes will fight an adult bird for those hens. I've seen plenty of jakes with hens of their own.
Quote from: bbcoach on April 19, 2020, 07:34:02 AM
Not disputing what is said but why do adult gobblers protect their hens from the runts then? They will keep them at a distance or even run them off. Also those same jakes will fight an adult bird for those hens. I've seen plenty of jakes with hens of their own.
I agree.Doesnt make much sense.
I do know mature gobblers only really need to mate about once with a hen to fertilize a clutch of eggs,but it doesnt stop them from remating.
Quote from: Paulmyr on April 18, 2020, 11:05:39 PM
Quote from: GobbleNut on April 18, 2020, 10:52:24 PM
I have heard this on and off over the years. Not sure how they concluded that every jake is incapable of semen production,...would like to see the sample size of the study and whether it was undertaken with all subspecies in all parts of the country.
Here's another tidbit that folks should consider when talking about shooting gobblers in the spring. Decades ago, similar studies showed that a single breeding from a gobbler can result in the fertilization of all of the eggs a hen may lay in a spring. That study showed that hens can store viable semen for as long as two months after a single successful breeding.
Assuming both the "infertile jake" study and the "single breeding" study are valid, then the real concern about spring hunting as far as actual breeding is concerned is that the spring hunting season is set after turkeys have had adequate opportunity to ensure that most, if not all, nesting-age hens have been bred.
In reality, when all is said and done, the real problem is not that hens are not getting bred and laying fertile eggs. It is that there is no corresponding nesting success and successful raising of poults to adulthood due most likely to a combination of factors, many of which have been discussed here many times.
I think the biggest problem with hunting disrupting the breeding season is that hens nest at different times through out the spring instead of saturation nesting where all the nest and polt rearing is supposed to happen at the same time. Polts need about 3 weeks before they can roost off the ground. Until that time the nest/polts and the hen are extremely vulnerable to predation. If they are allowed breeding without disruption predators have a smaller time period in which nest/broods are vulnerable.
Is there a study to back that up? Seems to me like that would be easy to tease out by comparing the timing and success of nesting of turkeys in unhunted populations with those in hunted ones.
They might all begin nesting at roughly same time but with high levels of predation on nests and the capacity to nest again after loss, the nesting season is always going to be spread out. Wouldn't it???
And I still don't understand how those guys know when a turkey lays it's first egg (so when nesting first starts). Once a hen starts sitting on the nest at night, I guess they could back date it. But what about those nests that are found by a snake or raccoon on the same day the first egg or second egg is layed? I don't think their tracking devices tell them with any certainty that a hen has just started a nest. If that is the case, then their observed average start of nesting season is going to be later than it might actually be.
Until I see some study to back this up, it will be hard for me to get behind moving the season later or not trying to kill the boss tom on opening morning.
From "Journal of Wildlife Management", July 1966
"Testes were collected from adult and subadult eastern wild turkey gobblers (Meleagris gallopavo silvestris) killed during Missouri's spring turkey seasons of 1964 and 1965, in order to determine the breeding potential of the subadult gobblers. Subadults were separated from adults on the basis of weight, spur and beard length, and retention of the 9th and 10th juvenile primaries. Rectrix replacement and progress of the post-juvenile or annual molt were helpful in separating age groups. A positive relationship was found between the predominant stage of spermatogenesis and testis weight of subadults. Testes weighing 7 g or more always showed spermatids, but those weighing less than 4 g never showed spermatozoa as the predominant stage. Bursa depths were shallower in birds exhibiting advanced stages of spermatogenesis, but spur length and beard length showed no relation to the stage of spermatogenesis. The sample taken from the testes of subadult gobblers shot during the 1964 and 1965 turkey seasons showed 28 percent (14 of 50) which possessed mature sperm. These data imply that these subadults could be capable of breeding."
News to me. Don't know if they are capable of fertilizing the eggs or not, but I know for a fact they will top a hen. Seen it happen more than once over the years.
Quote from: bbcoach on April 19, 2020, 07:34:02 AM
Not disputing what is said but why do adult gobblers protect their hens from the runts then? They will keep them at a distance or even run them off. Also those same jakes will fight an adult bird for those hens. I've seen plenty of jakes with hens of their own.
Jakes will mate if given the chance but often the Jake's seaman potency is not high enough to fertilize the hen. He also touched on that some hens will refuse to mate with lesser males.
I think the point he was making is it is not in our own interest to rely on a few jakes to "get the job done" if we want to maximize the already difficult and delicate breading cycle for turkeys each spring.
His warning was we can't have our cake and eat it too. If you want the very best hatches and bumper future generations of birds to hunt we can't be out there killing a larger portion of the mature males before or during peak breading.
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Hmmm, I didn't know this either and I'm not totally convinced. I done some searching and found a few papers on domestic turkey fertility and some of them reference wild turkey breeding cycles. It's a common practice to use yearling males in domestic turkeys. It's about gonad development and photo-periods. Actually as the season goes on semen production is reduced and testicles become recessive. It varies within a flock, but typically I see the mature toms staying active later into spring. It may be more of a function of when a jake was hatched the previous year. An early hatch might make him a month older and mature. I do know hens store sperm, and actually a Jenny can produce fertile eggs in small clutch without being bred that first spring. Many populations were built on this premise. I doubt we should be concerned about shooting the last gobbler, as the hens are bred very early. Typically the science suggest that two breedings are best about two weeks apart....this probably happens before we're even hunting.
Great conversation Gentlemen. Thanks for posting!
Quote from: Spurs Up on April 19, 2020, 08:24:43 AM
Quote from: Paulmyr on April 18, 2020, 11:05:39 PM
Quote from: GobbleNut on April 18, 2020, 10:52:24 PM
I have heard this on and off over the years. Not sure how they concluded that every jake is incapable of semen production,...would like to see the sample size of the study and whether it was undertaken with all subspecies in all parts of the country.
Here's another tidbit that folks should consider when talking about shooting gobblers in the spring. Decades ago, similar studies showed that a single breeding from a gobbler can result in the fertilization of all of the eggs a hen may lay in a spring. That study showed that hens can store viable semen for as long as two months after a single successful breeding.
Assuming both the "infertile jake" study and the "single breeding" study are valid, then the real concern about spring hunting as far as actual breeding is concerned is that the spring hunting season is set after turkeys have had adequate opportunity to ensure that most, if not all, nesting-age hens have been bred.
In reality, when all is said and done, the real problem is not that hens are not getting bred and laying fertile eggs. It is that there is no corresponding nesting success and successful raising of poults to adulthood due most likely to a combination of factors, many of which have been discussed here many times.
I think the biggest problem with hunting disrupting the breeding season is that hens nest at different times through out the spring instead of saturation nesting where all the nest and polt rearing is supposed to happen at the same time. Polts need about 3 weeks before they can roost off the ground. Until that time the nest/polts and the hen are extremely vulnerable to predation. If they are allowed breeding without disruption predators have a smaller time period in which nest/broods are vulnerable.
Is there a study to back that up? Seems to me like that would be easy to tease out by comparing the timing and success of nesting of turkeys in unhunted populations with those in hunted ones.
They might all begin nesting at roughly same time but with high levels of predation on nests and the capacity to nest again after loss, the nesting season is always going to be spread out. Wouldn't it???
And I still don't understand how those guys know when a turkey lays it's first egg (so when nesting first starts). Once a hen starts sitting on the nest at night, I guess they could back date it. But what about those nests that are found by a snake or raccoon on the same day the first egg or second egg is layed? I don't think their tracking devices tell them with any certainty that a hen has just started a nest. If that is the case, then their observed average start of nesting season is going to be later than it might actually be.
Until I see some study to back this up, it will be hard for me to get behind moving the season later or not trying to kill the boss tom on opening morning.
I think the over all disruption caused by hunting doesn't just pertain to predation on nests. Taking dominant Tom's out of the flock before and during peak breeding effects the normal breeding cycle. I found It extremely interesting how Dr. Chamberlain called turkey mating behavior an exploded lek. Camparing them to other birds like sage or sharptail grouse where all the males meet at these leks to display and breed as many hens as possible in the shortest time period. His explanation of how turkeys do this on an expanded level across the landscape makes complete sense to me. The purpose of displaying/gobbling is to attract as many hens as possible and breed them. Hens choose dominant birds to breed with in these lek type systems. It's not something she takes lightly. The survival of the species depends on it by insuring the the Tom's with the best physical attributes pass their genes on to the next generations. She normally breeds only with birds she considers dominant. Remove the dominant birds before peak breeding and she has to run through the whole process again because the pecking order has changed. She needs to redetermine who are the dominant Tom's.
I don't think Tom's are protecting hens as other posters mention. I think it has much more to with establishing dominance in their choice of breeding area within the exploded lek.
The overall disruption is not contained to just nesting. There are far more variables involved causing hens to breed/nest over an extended period than would happen if left alone. Atleast that's what I have gleened from the info I've been getting from Dr. Chamberlain.
P: I used nest predation only as an example of a factor that could contribute to observations of a lengthy nesting season. Sorry if that created any confusion. Nest predation and hunting are unrelated as far as I know, which is not much. My point, if any, is while it might make sense that disrupting breeding is responsible for population declines, there's not a lot of science behind it. Some research data or a study designed to address this hypothesis would go a long way to confirm (or dispel) what is right now we'll-reasoned speculation.
I'm about halfway through Part 1 of the Jay Scott Podcast with Dr. Chamberlain. He talks about some of this stuff on there. It's another good one for anyone interested in the topic.
Quote from: Spurs Up on April 19, 2020, 01:06:14 PM
P: I used nest predation only as an example of a factor that could contribute to observations of a lengthy nesting season. Sorry if that created any confusion. Nest predation and hunting are unrelated as far as I know, which is not much. My point, if any, is while it might make sense that disrupting breeding is responsible for population declines, there's not a lot of science behind it. Some research data or a study designed to address this hypothesis would go a long way to confirm (or dispel) what is right now we'll-reasoned speculation.
I'll take the guys word on it. He's been studying this bird for the about last 30 years. It doesn't sound like it's only a job to him. It sounds like it's his passion. It's what he does. I trust his sumerizations of turkey behavior instead of needing to see the exact study in the vast expanse of his work. The things he says make sense to me and verify what I thought I had learned from hunting them over the same time period of his work.
Quote from: Paulmyr on April 19, 2020, 01:55:38 PM
Quote from: Spurs Up on April 19, 2020, 01:06:14 PM
P: I used nest predation only as an example of a factor that could contribute to observations of a lengthy nesting season. Sorry if that created any confusion. Nest predation and hunting are unrelated as far as I know, which is not much. My point, if any, is while it might make sense that disrupting breeding is responsible for population declines, there's not a lot of science behind it. Some research data or a study designed to address this hypothesis would go a long way to confirm (or dispel) what is right now we'll-reasoned speculation.
I'll take the guys word on it. He's been studying this bird for the about last 30 years. It doesn't sound like it's only a job to him. It sounds like it's his passion. It's what he does. I trust his sumerizations of turkey behavior instead of needing to see the exact study in the vast expanse of his work. The things he says make sense to me and verify what I thought I had learned from hunting them over the same time period of his work.
Too add to my comment. I don't think Dr. Chamberlain's words are speculation. I think they are based from solid research over a long period of time. I especially like his comment in the podcast about he don't care if someone proves him wrong in the future. It's not about being right to him. It's about the science. If someone takes the time debunk his conclusions means that somebody out there still cares enough about the bird to continue the research. Those words have a lot of credibility to me.
Quote from: TauntoHawk on April 19, 2020, 09:11:05 AM
Quote from: bbcoach on April 19, 2020, 07:34:02 AM
Not disputing what is said but why do adult gobblers protect their hens from the runts then? They will keep them at a distance or even run them off. Also those same jakes will fight an adult bird for those hens. I've seen plenty of jakes with hens of their own.
Jakes will mate if given the chance but often the Jake's seaman potency is not high enough to fertilize the hen. He also touched on that some hens will refuse to mate with lesser males.
I think the point he was making is it is not in our own interest to rely on a few jakes to "get the job done" if we want to maximize the already difficult and delicate breading cycle for turkeys each spring.
His warning was we can't have our cake and eat it too. If you want the very best hatches and bumper future generations of birds to hunt we can't be out there killing a larger portion of the mature males before or during peak breading.
Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
Our season here in Georgia opened March 21st. You wouldn`t have to hunt hard to find those who would advocate for a later ( 2-3 weeks ) opening. That speaks to the last paragraph above. Just personally, I would like to see a later opening for a couple of seasons or three so the biologists could see. I`m for whatever would help the birds.
Another interesting point is, in the absence of depredation wildlife populations seem to plateau and reproduction falls off. Wildlife actually does better when you are harvesting some excess. They are always in the fill the habitat mode. Of course you can go too far with this.
Great post. Thanks for sharing
I have killed them on opening day and on the last weekend.
I am all for the best interest of the turkey. I can kill them whenever they tell me go.
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Link please, had one that had been posted here but lost the link and forgot to share to desktop. Thank you.
Quote from: bbcoach on April 19, 2020, 07:34:02 AM
Not disputing what is said but why do adult gobblers protect their hens from the runts then? They will keep them at a distance or even run them off. Also those same jakes will fight an adult bird for those hens. I've seen plenty of jakes with hens of their own.
the live video from lsu ag wasnt debating that jakes did not try to breed hens, or were incapable of going through the motions . it was just the point that they werent fertile yet. like a preteen almost in puberty.It was the first id heard of it to....
Quote from: dzsmith on April 19, 2020, 11:37:38 PM
Quote from: bbcoach on April 19, 2020, 07:34:02 AM
Not disputing what is said but why do adult gobblers protect their hens from the runts then? They will keep them at a distance or even run them off. Also those same jakes will fight an adult bird for those hens. I've seen plenty of jakes with hens of their own.
the live video from lsu ag wasnt debating that jakes did not try to breed hens, or were incapable of going through the motions . it was just the point that they werent fertile yet. like a preteen almost in puberty.It was the first id heard of it to....
I remember on that webcast they said that if the box tom were killed they would not just move to the next one in line, that they would have to reestablish a pecking order before breeding would continue but I did not hear about them being infertile.
Quote from: Sir-diealot on April 20, 2020, 12:21:18 AM
Quote from: dzsmith on April 19, 2020, 11:37:38 PM
Quote from: bbcoach on April 19, 2020, 07:34:02 AM
Not disputing what is said but why do adult gobblers protect their hens from the runts then? They will keep them at a distance or even run them off. Also those same jakes will fight an adult bird for those hens. I've seen plenty of jakes with hens of their own.
the live video from lsu ag wasnt debating that jakes did not try to breed hens, or were incapable of going through the motions . it was just the point that they werent fertile yet. like a preteen almost in puberty.It was the first id heard of it to....
I remember on that webcast they said that if the box tom were killed they would not just move to the next one in line, that they would have to reestablish a pecking order before breeding would continue but I did not hear about them being infertile.
I don't know what was on the pod cast. I got this from the lsu ag center live question and answer session video they had, they referenced the podcast on the live session but they were answering questions from the public.
Then there is no real reason for banning the shooting of jakes. I know that at least one State does this. Most have a "visible beard" stipulation and nothing more. I've always felt that horn size and point numbers caused many deer to be left in the woods. Betting a beard length rule does the same for turkeys. Over the years have watched young birds breed more decoys then I can count. In essence a mature birds only rule could do more harm than good.
Back more on point usually have heard much more whining about wanting an earlier season than a later one.
Really good (and civil) discussion going on here. Good to see.
Quite honestly, I think the problems turkey populations are facing in some places have more to do with factors relating to nesting success and poult survival than hunting. Having said that, the one flat out "we gotta do this" statement I would make relating to hunting is that EVERY state needs to establish when the "photo period" data indicates the turkeys are going to start breeding and then set the start of their turkey seasons no earlier than ten days to two weeks after that.
As others have stated, gobblers are still willing to come to a call long after the time when all (or most) of the hens have been bred. For wild turkey managers: if you believe hunting and the killing of mature gobblers might be a problem in your turkey population, move the season start back a week or two!
Kinda a head scratcher, if a flock of jakes whip a mature tom if not for hens, then why? They just love to fight? This is interesting. :popcorn:
Quote from: WorkingBirds on April 20, 2020, 10:31:17 AM
Kinda a head scratcher, if a flock of jakes whip a mature tom if not for hens, then why? They just love to fight? This is interesting. :popcorn:
yup its a constant battle establishing and keeping your place in the pecking order
again I agree with Gobblenut. I think our birds are just in the peak here and season opened today. I heard one gobble period and watched a strutter go down a log road following a hen, he wouldn't even look back at me. Two weeks ago there were 10 birds gobbling in this same spot, that is when the pecking order was established. When they go silent then they are with hens and breeding. Soon as they start loosing hens you'll hear more gobbling. So I think we are starting right in the peak
Sure wish there was a link for the video, I can't find it searching Google.
https://www.themeateater.com/listen/meateater/ep-214-gobbling-your--off
podcast
My dad raised all kinds of fowl from ducks, geese, chickens, pigeons, pheasants and of course turkeys on the farm while I was a kid. Always kept the "Breeder" Birds around. All have the same drive to reproduce whether they are fertile or not, the hormones tell them to.
MK M GOBL
Quote from: squidd on April 20, 2020, 09:02:20 PM
https://www.themeateater.com/listen/meateater/ep-214-gobbling-your--off
podcast
That link is bad but thank you for trying. I have listened to that one but I was talking about the video the OP was talking about, it is a video.
Quote from: GobbleNut on April 20, 2020, 08:50:44 AM
Really good (and civil) discussion going on here. Good to see.
Quite honestly, I think the problems turkey populations are facing in some places have more to do with factors relating to nesting success and poult survival than hunting. Having said that, the one flat out "we gotta do this" statement I would make relating to hunting is that EVERY state needs to establish when the "photo period" data indicates the turkeys are going to start breeding and then set the start of their turkey seasons no earlier than ten days to two weeks after that.
As others have stated, gobblers are still willing to come to a call long after the time when all (or most) of the hens have been bred. For wild turkey managers: if you believe hunting and the killing of mature gobblers might be a problem in your turkey population, move the season start back a week or two!
Great post. I would have no problem backing the season start date up if that would indeed help the overall population.
I've always had concerns about our opener here in Ontario. We open April 25th every year and it just seems to early. Some years the birds are still in winter flocks. I believe they set the opener years ago for peak gobbling without regard for actual breeding. We're usually into the second week before the hens start leaving the toms mid morning.
Sharing this because it relates. It will be on the NWTF page. https://www.facebook.com/THENWTF/?__xts__[0]=68.ARBktlCmC0OLvIsq1pDszh8-T0YM9-OG_Hb4aaSNv_TUCyxPdzmJ23wvm7LXfc7rw7FSTIsVT9MI90D3xLVLxiS0qkE78hHKVxO2CtRE2zxq3fcwfwxkYhtDv2rbevUBSoa3pj_wIn3ZG2AG66ClB--85Gn8alTSIVkfX6YYYPU-smlKJVUw3fgkONsuruuY4nZxIhz6L4dSROnFd1FvPyvHajG1zT8Y7sloeXde6H9l9_Sv6dQJLg9MkK2XOmzjW9nWUTiX6KxYcBcw3mtG7KmkpH391pex_90Ehmv7qFU3HaXNCRxxpKiAF5eZn4oj_SfKcxYeuc-dLzzMPg&__tn__=k*F&tn-str=k*F
Quote from: Sir-diealot on April 20, 2020, 09:17:29 PM
Quote from: squidd on April 20, 2020, 09:02:20 PM
https://www.themeateater.com/listen/meateater/ep-214-gobbling-your--off
podcast
That link is bad but thank you for trying. I have listened to that one but I was talking about the video the OP was talking about, it is a video.
do you have facebook? what you just shared is the same 2 guys from the lsu ag video. the video he is talking about is on the lsu ag facebook page, and I believe its a few weeks old if you want to go back and watch it. Its the same 2 guys who are gonna be on tonight.
No Facebook for me - for whatever reason the link from the iPad failed?
Quote from: squidd on April 21, 2020, 11:04:37 PM
No Facebook for me - for whatever reason the link from the iPad failed?
that's a good thing man, you aint missing nothing. wish I never made one.
Quote from: dzsmith on April 21, 2020, 10:31:18 PM
Quote from: Sir-diealot on April 20, 2020, 09:17:29 PM
Quote from: squidd on April 20, 2020, 09:02:20 PM
https://www.themeateater.com/listen/meateater/ep-214-gobbling-your--off
podcast
That link is bad but thank you for trying. I have listened to that one but I was talking about the video the OP was talking about, it is a video.
do you have facebook? what you just shared is the same 2 guys from the lsu ag video. the video he is talking about is on the lsu ag facebook page, and I believe its a few weeks old if you want to go back and watch it. Its the same 2 guys who are gonna be on tonight.
Okay thank you, I will look for it.
I hunt a place that may only have one gobbler, but he is a big boy, and he's very elusive. It would be hard to pass on him.