Hey there folks it's been a long while since I been on this site, I do believe I joined at Old Gobbler inception when it first came on line but life took over thereafter and here i am whatever years and 5 kids later and I'm back to thinking the grand slam. Never killed a Merriams. From what I read to get a pure strain white tipped merriam you gotta go to Montana or Wyoming I am so very up for a wilderness hunt in either state or anywhere that the white tipped thunderbirds hang. Any and all tips and advice welcome (i'm in New England, not a hunting or fishing mecca but we have some strengths and I am happy to help with whatever anyone wants in trade --I have a camp in VT if that helps) I might be able to take my oldest son on this hunt, which would be incredibly special. Thanks and God Bless
If you want white and native range northern New Mexico or southern Colorado
For Merriam's, the terms "pure strain" and "white tips" are not necessarily synonymous. The fact is that pure Merriam's strains vary a lot in terms of the white coloration found in them. The white tips found in some places is strictly a function of specific genetic traits within those localized populations of birds.
Now, if you are just using "the whiter the better" as your qualifier, then perhaps Montana or Wyoming may be your preferred hunting location. There are perfectly pure Merriam's turkeys in other places that do not exhibit those pure white characteristics, however. One thing to remember when hunting Merriam's is that they almost all look a lot whiter "on the hoof" than they do once they are up close on the ground. ...Not always, but often.
Quote from: GobbleNut on January 11, 2020, 11:31:29 AM
For Merriam's, the terms "pure strain" and "white tips" are not necessarily synonymous. The fact is that pure Merriam's strains vary a lot in terms of the white coloration found in them. The white tips found in some places is strictly a function of specific genetic traits within those localized populations of birds.
Now, if you are just using "the whiter the better" as your qualifier, then perhaps Montana or Wyoming may be your preferred hunting location. There are perfectly pure Merriam's turkeys in other places that do not exhibit those pure white characteristics, however. One thing to remember when hunting Merriam's is that they almost all look a lot whiter "on the hoof" than they do once they are up close on the ground. ...Not always, but often.
Never knew that, thanks for the education. OK shows some Merriam's near the end of the Panhandle and I was thinking about maybe going up that way if I got my Rio Next year early enough.
Quote from: Sir-diealot on January 11, 2020, 11:47:05 AM
Quote from: GobbleNut on January 11, 2020, 11:31:29 AM
For Merriam's, the terms "pure strain" and "white tips" are not necessarily synonymous. The fact is that pure Merriam's strains vary a lot in terms of the white coloration found in them. The white tips found in some places is strictly a function of specific genetic traits within those localized populations of birds.
Now, if you are just using "the whiter the better" as your qualifier, then perhaps Montana or Wyoming may be your preferred hunting location. There are perfectly pure Merriam's turkeys in other places that do not exhibit those pure white characteristics, however. One thing to remember when hunting Merriam's is that they almost all look a lot whiter "on the hoof" than they do once they are up close on the ground. ...Not always, but often.
Never knew that, thanks for the education. OK shows some Merriam's near the end of the Panhandle and I was thinking about maybe going up that way if I got my Rio Next year early enough.
Couldn't say for sure, but I would be very surprised that those turkeys in the western panhandle of Oklahoma are "pure" Merriam's due to their long-term proximity to Rio's. I would be even more surprised if you can find a place to hunt for them in that location.
+1 ...
Quote from: Gooserbat on January 10, 2020, 08:59:46 PM
If you want white and native range northern New Mexico or southern Colorado
I really should write this out somewhere because I harp on it too often. It would be simpler as a cut and paste. :)
I understand the desire for the white tips, but Merriam's range from a buff color to snow white wherever you find them. More often than not you'll find sort of a blonde color. Photos taken in the right light will appear more white than they are. There is however those birds on the white end of the spectrum. To confuse it more, states like Nebraska and SD have transplanted both resulting in a cross. However, the Pine Ridge and Blackhills are Merriam's. Some of NMs birds that are native Merriam's are more buff than white. Consider the range of colors in Eastern birds. If you've not seen it you're not paying attention.
As far as native range, as stated, southern CO, New Mexico, and Arizona are the native range states. Wyoming and Montana birds were transplanted originally from Colorado. Turkeys are not native to MT, but they are Merriam's. Same goes for Wyoming.
Quote from: Hobbes on January 11, 2020, 12:10:08 PM
I really should write this out somewhere because I harp on it too often. It would be simpler as a cut and paste. :)
I understand the desire for the white tips, but Merriam's range from a buff color to snow white wherever you find them. More often than not you'll find sort of a blonde color. Photos taken in the right light will appear more white than they are. There is however those birds on the white end of the spectrum. To confuse it more, states like Nebraska and SD have transplanted both resulting in a cross. However, the Pine Ridge and Blackhills are Merriam's. Some of NMs birds that are native Merriam's are more buff than white. Consider the range of colors in Eastern birds. If you've not seen it you're not paying attention.
As far as native range, as stated, southern CO, New Mexico, and Arizona are the native range states. Wyoming and Montana birds were transplanted originally from Colorado. Turkeys are not native to MT, but they are Merriam's. Same goes for Wyoming.
Good post !!!
Couple years ago my bro and I did a NE and WY hunt. We came home with 6 Merriam's that should have been pure, considering the locations. Our WY birds were whiter-tipped. But the 4 NE birds came from the same, small area and they ranged from white to a more buff color.
If ever I can save to take a trip for them I would definitely try to find an area with more white tipped birds in them, to me that is what I find attractive in them and in Gould's.
Not trying to ruffle any feathers LOL, Here's what the NWTF has to say about the subspecies https://www.nwtf.org/hunt/article/wild-turkey-subspecies. I've always been told, white tip is a Pure merriam. Buff is a Rio. Plenty of HYBRIDS in the Midwest. Also in order to kill a true Osceola you have to get south of I4. The further south you go the better. Some outfitters in Florida will sell you on they have Osceolas because their property is in Florida.
Quote from: bbcoach on January 11, 2020, 01:07:16 PM
Not trying to ruffle any feathers LOL, Here's what the NWTF has to say about the subspecies https://www.nwtf.org/hunt/article/wild-turkey-subspecies. I've always been told, white tip is a Pure merriam. Buff is a Rio. Plenty of HYBRIDS in the Midwest. Also in order to kill a true Osceola you have to get south of I4. The further south you go the better. Some outfitters in Florida will sell you on they have Osceolas because their property is in Florida.
As for the Merriam's description of "snow white tips on tail feathers", quite honestly, the NWTF biologists (or whoever wrote that) should know better. That description is no more accurate than their line across Florida that declares anything north to be Eastern's and anything south to be Osceola's. I will give them the benefit of the doubt, however, and assume they are just trying to simplify identification of the subspecies and distribution as best they can. With the mixing of the subspecies that has taken place in the last fifty years, I suppose that is the best we can expect to do.
NWTF can say "snow white tips", but I've killed birds in native Merriam's country that did not have them. In addition I've killed birds in areas that have been solely stocked from CO and NM birds that have buff to cream colored tips. They say "chestnut brown" for easterns, but I've killed them from buff to dark brown far enough into eastern country that there are no hybrids.
If I had to guess, I'd say that the biologist (if that's even the case) that wrote that is from Eastern country. Its a fair bet because you won't find many biologists in the West that have much interest in turkeys. I've had folks on the forums comment about white tips on birds that I've killed and they were not white. Maybe creamy with just a hint of buff, but not white. However, relative to an eastern.....I guess some folks would say snow white. In addition, sit behind a bird while wearing dark camo and add a little sunlight.......a buff colored bird will look a lot closer to white than he really is.
True Merriam have short legs,thus short beards. If white tips are desired, go to Mexico and hunt Goulds.
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
You may be right, but I've not noticed it.
While they may be shorter than an Osceola or Eastern (I've never measured) it's not by much. They are significantly taller than tame birds. For the most part, their beards are a sparse broken up mess. They'll have a stub of a beard hiding in there that could produce a good beard, but I've rarely seen a stub that could produce some of those really thick paintbrush eastern beards. I think their beards are a result of genetics, nutrition, and weather. The best Merriam's beards I've seen have been riverbottoms birds.
I live in MT and the weather is extremely unpredictable that time of the year. It can blast back to winter and stay there for a week or so. I would definitely hunt the last week of the season.
Birds will be at low elevations in the spring, which means private land in a lot of areas. SE part of the state is your best bet for good access to birds. Cover a lot of ground to find birds. Roads will be impassible with moisture.
Quote from: Hobbes on January 11, 2020, 03:26:10 PM
You may be right, but I've not noticed it.
While they may be shorter than an Osceola or Eastern (I've never measured) it's not by much. They are significantly taller than tame birds. For the most part, their beards are a sparse broken up mess. They'll have a stub of a beard hiding in there that could produce a good beard, but I've rarely seen a stub that could produce some of those really thick paintbrush eastern beards. I think their beards are a result of genetics, nutrition, and weather. The best Merriam's beards I've seen have been riverbottoms birds.
I think the appearance of short legs on Merriam's is at least in part due to the fact that the feathers on their lower body are typically much thicker and fuller than those of other subspecies. I believe that is possibly a function of where they live,...often cold, mountainous climes,...that require added insulation on those lower extremities. I also agree that the lack of beard development is primarily a genetic trait of the subspecies (same with spurs in many cases).
Similar to Yoder...
A couple years ago a buddy and I did a trip to Wy and Mt. We each took a bird in Wy and then we both scored on birds in Mt. The 2 Wy birds had really white tips, but the tips on our Mt birds were definitely much more of a buff colored. Even though we hunted different states, the distance between the area we hunted in Wy, to the area we hunted in Mt was only about 10-15 miles.
Thanks so much for all the info this is fabulous. I don't know why I totally forgot about Colorado and New Mexico, though don't they have lower densities of birds? I will likely only have a couple days out there so naturally trying to maximize the odds. Anyway, thanks for all the info
Seemed like plenty of birds in New Mexico when I killed mine. One was very white the other buff. White one is my avatar.
I posted this some years ago, but Photobucket took it away. This seemed like a good thread to put it back up. The map is from J. Stokley Ligon's 1946 book, History and management of Merriam's wild turkey. The purely dashed lines show the known Merriam's range at the time of greatest contraction in the 1920s to 1940s. The dashed lines with dots show some of the early reintroduction areas as of 1942.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49373363468_e88d6694ea_o_d.jpg)
Quote from: Hobbes on January 11, 2020, 12:10:08 PMI understand the desire for the white tips, but Merriam's range from a buff color to snow white wherever you find them. More often than not you'll find sort of a blonde color. Photos taken in the right light will appear more white than they are. There is however those birds on the white end of the spectrum. To confuse it more, states like Nebraska and SD have transplanted both resulting in a cross. However, the Pine Ridge and Blackhills are Merriam's. Some of NMs birds that are native Merriam's are more buff than white. Consider the range of colors in Eastern birds. If you've not seen it you're not paying attention.
Absolutely Hobbes!! Spot on accurate!! :icon_thumright: I got my Merriams in NW Nebraska. My friends and I got 5 birds. 4 were buff colored, and only one was white. Also, you're right about the Easterns. I've had some with dark fan tips, some buff colored like Rios, and some brown. I even got an Osceola with a reddish tail one time. There are many variations in turkey colors.
Gonna pose a pretty straightforward question here................
But first..... I bowhunt whitetails. I hunt ONE PLACE. Its a 113 acre tract. I only shoot mature bucks. Some of those bucks have a large white throat patch. Some small. One had a double throat patch. Some have a wide, white nose band. Some narrow and white. But they're ALL whitetail bucks.
So, snow white............buff-ish............somewhere in between............ What DIFFERENCE does it make, so long as the bird came from an area recognized as pure Merriam's territory ???? It is its OWN individual and unique trophy of a lifetime.
Quote from: Yoder409 on January 12, 2020, 09:07:58 PM
Gonna pose a pretty straightforward question here................
But first..... I bowhunt whitetails. I hunt ONE PLACE. Its a 113 acre tract. I only shoot mature bucks. Some of those bucks have a large white throat patch. Some small. One had a double throat patch. Some have a wide, white nose band. Some narrow and white. But they're ALL whitetail bucks.
So, snow white............buff-ish............somewhere in between............ What DIFFERENCE does it make, so long as the bird came from an area recognized as pure Merriam's territory ???? It is its OWN individual and unique trophy of a lifetime.
Perfect summation.
I've been turkey hunting for 11 years now in the Panhandle of Nebraska in Merriam country (Pine Ridge and Wildcat Hills) and just last year got my first "pure white" fan that I mounted. All the others over the years have been buff. Not saying impossible to get one, but if you come and get a buff, you should just be thrilled that you got a Merriam in beautiful country!
I think the creamy color with just a hint of buff is actually a better looking fan than those with snow white tips. I'll try to post up some photos (on this thread or another) of the variations that I've killed in different regions. I've done it previously, but that was before I shut my account down for awhile and probably from the old Photobucket, so they probably aren't available anymore.