Chime in Florida natives.
Being from LaBelle I personally think it's the HWY 70 line. We've killed many birds around the Kissimmee River that had lots of white bars on the wings. I just think that's the southern end of the two populations breeding together. A true Osceola should have hardly any white bars.
Quote from: SD_smith on March 27, 2019, 01:45:11 PM
Being from LaBelle I personally think it's the HWY 70 line. We've killed many birds around the Kissimmee River that had lots of white bars on the wings. I just think that's the southern end of the two populations breeding together. A true Osceola should have hardly any white bars.
Ohhh...! And after all this time I thought it was just when an Eastern crossed the Florida state line! :laugh:
Seems to me that, several years ago, I read whereas Ocala was the "borderline" between Eastern/Osceola hybrids and "true Osceolas". I imagine that line will continue southward until the entire state is hybrids. Does it really matter? If it weren't for the NWTF establishing these boundaries would anybody really care? Just turkey hunt and enjoy it. If you're hung up on it have your bird DNA'd...for a fee I imagine it could be done.
Quote from: Turkey-Man on March 27, 2019, 02:29:30 PM
If you're hung up on it have your bird DNA'd...for a fee I imagine it could be done.
I doubt that would help. The studies I've seen were not able to distinguish Easterns and Osceolas on the basis of DNA. However those two, as a group, and the other subspecies are distinguishable through DNA.
I've heard the dividing line was Interstate 4. North was recognized as Easterns and south was recognized as Osceolas.
I live and hunt in NE Florida near St Augustine. My son took photos of wings of 4 different gobblers we shot a few years ago on our lease and the appearance varied from Osceola to Eastern and inbetween. I had one mounted from here a couple years ago by a guy who does lots of Florida birds and he said Osceola, no question. I believe the state of Florida considers any below I-10 to be Osceola for what that's worth. I believe they're all mixed up around here, myself. Doesn't matter to me, I've shot plenty of Osceola south of here and Easterns north. Just fun to hunt.
This is the official FWC position for the Osceola and eastern turkey in florida.
Orlando area and south for the real thing .....backed up by Dr.Williams none the less
I believe that the traits of Osceolas can be found throughout Florida, but true Osceolas are swamp birds. The birds in the Green Swamp, are north of I4 and SR 70 and exhibit all of the true Osceola characteristics: light gobbling, long legs, black wings. Likewise, I have killed several birds from the coastal swamps all the way up near St. Marks that look every bit Osceola. A couple weeks ago, we had an incredible hunt in which 4 of us each killed a longbeard. One of the 4 had longer legs and black wings, north of Ocala near the Orange Creek swamp. I have a piece of land I have hunted for a decade now which is south of the "line" and those birds seem very much eastern. Once you get north of the Green Swamp, its a crapshoot, and I'd say that most all of the birds are some degree of hybrid.
IMO if you feel the need to kill a "true" Osceola, stay south of the Green Swamp and if south of 70 it will definitely have the black wings and long legs.
My 2 cents and they're free lol.
To kill a true Osceola, you first gotta look for the line on the ground where you are hunting that the NWTF put there. Once you find that line, just stay on the south side of it and don't shoot any gobbler that is on the north side of it. If a gobbler is on the north side of the line, do not shoot him on that side of the line because he is a full-blooded Eastern. If he is headed south, just wait till he crosses the line and then you got yourself a full-blooded Osceola.
Now, if you have two tags and there are two gobblers together, wait 'til one of them is on the north side of the line and the other on the south side and shoot them both. Then you got yourself two of the four subspecies of the Grand Slam. You gotta make sure that the second one does not get back across that line before you shoot him, though, because if he does, then you only got yourself one subspecies.
Now, if you're not sure you can kill one on each side of the line, try to wait 'til both of them are on the south side so that you will have two Osceola's instead of two Eastern's. Osceola's are harder to get and cost more, so shoot'em on the right side of the line.
:newmascot: :newmascot: :newmascot: :toothy9: :toothy9: :newmascot: :newmascot: :newmascot:
When he says y'all and not you guys.
:funnyturkey:
I don't hesitate calling either an osceola but found this was really cool.. side by side top bird from south Florida vs Orlando area bird bottom. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190327/2e0cb38d74f4b034cad85ccd426332cf.jpg)
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Where exactly is that line, Gobblenut? Maybe we could get a crew together and draw a chalk line down it so there are no mistakes...?
The debate can be taken up as well for merriams. A true merriam has white tip tail feathers. Many hunt Nebraska and kill the buff colored merriam hybrid. Many outfitters will tell you I have Osceolas or Merriams for the money but they don't. A line drawn on a map is just a guide.
Quote from: bbcoach on March 27, 2019, 05:37:12 PM
The debate can be taken up as well for merriams. A true merriam has white tip tail feathers. Many hunt Nebraska and kill the buff colored merriam hybrid. Many outfitters will tell you I have Osceolas or Merriams for the money but they don't. A line drawn on a map is just a guide.
I agree on both. Most Black Hills Merriams are a buffed color, not Snow White anymore. Have to get on some of these very isolated river bottom birds to get the Snow White anymore in SD. Or head to MT to find them. WY still has some around too.
White tips don't make a merriam. I've killed Rios in Texas with white tips...
Quote from: JMalin on March 27, 2019, 06:08:47 PM
White tips don't make a merriam. I've killed Rios in Texas with white tips...
That's cool. Must've been a funky gene...
Quote from: bbcoach on March 27, 2019, 05:37:12 PM
The debate can be taken up as well for merriams. A true merriam has white tip tail feathers. Many hunt Nebraska and kill the buff colored merriam hybrid. Many outfitters will tell you I have Osceolas or Merriams for the money but they don't. A line drawn on a map is just a guide.
I agree that the hybridization problem is widespread since the era of transplanting subspecies across the country. However, the commonly-held belief that the true identifying characteristic of the Merriam's subspecies is the purity of the white coloration is faulty.
The Merriam's white feather coloration varies to a great extent. In some of it's historic range, the very white tail/rump feather coloration is somewhat rare, and in fact that white coloration is found more predominantly in transplanted Merriam's populations more than in historic, indigenous populations from what I have seen.
From my perspective having looked over a lot of gobblers of both the Merriam's and Rio Grande subspecies, the most reliable way to tell one from the other is the iridescence found in the sheen of the secondary bands of the rump feathers and the general, overall sheen of the bird. Rios, and Rio hybrids will have a noticeable copperish sheen, most noticeable in the iridescent rump band. That copperish sheen seems to be a dominant trait in Rios and from what I have seen, always shows up in Rio hybrids.
On the other hand, Merriams have none of that and have an overall blackish purple sheen, also most noticeable in the rump iridescence.
And another thing, to really see and comprehend those differences, you have to look at the bird in good sunlight.
Quote from: SD_smith on March 27, 2019, 06:03:45 PM
Quote from: bbcoach on March 27, 2019, 05:37:12 PM
The debate can be taken up as well for merriams. A true merriam has white tip tail feathers. Many hunt Nebraska and kill the buff colored merriam hybrid. Many outfitters will tell you I have Osceolas or Merriams for the money but they don't. A line drawn on a map is just a guide.
I agree on both. Most Black Hills Merriams are a buffed color, not Snow White anymore. Have to get on some of these very isolated river bottom birds to get the Snow White anymore in SD. Or head to MT to find them. WY still has some around too.
I killed a bird last year in the black hills. I consider him a merriams because that's what i set out to hunt lol. He was pretty white though compared to all the rios i have killed
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb445/codyvid/20170422_185133.jpg) (http://s1206.photobucket.com/user/codyvid/media/20170422_185133.jpg.html)
That is a pretty gobbler Tomfoolery.
Quote from: JMalin on March 27, 2019, 06:08:47 PM
White tips don't make a merriam. I've killed Rios in Texas with white tips...
Spot on. True Marriam have short legs,thus short beards.
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I grew up hunting around Lakleland and as far South as the Glades. If they gave my the crayon to draw the line it would be Hwy 70
A lot of the color variation in tips and rump borders........no matter WHAT subspecies..........is due to turkeys being turkeys.
On the home turf, I'm hunting Easterns. None of them have EVER been within +/- 1000 miles of any other subspecies. Yet, over the decades, I've seen and killed a pretty wide range of colors on the tips. Just individual trait............ I can't help but think the other subspecies would, likewise, have individual traits, even if there were ZERO influence from cross-breeding with another subspecies.
Orlando and south.
Here you go gentlemen http://www.nwtf.org/hunt/article/wild-turkey-subspecies Read the first sentence for each sub species. If you are hunting a specific area of the country for a certain species color is the true test. Yes there are variations but you can't draw a line in the sand and say this is the cut off because turkeys have crossed that line for years. If you are in Florida, you want black wings and dark brown or black tips, easterns have chestnut brown tips, rios buff and merriams white tipped. There are many hybrid variations, as some have stated, for different areas. CONGRATS on a BEAUTIFUL white tipped merriam Tomfoolery!
Quote from: bbcoach on March 28, 2019, 09:06:18 AM
Here you go gentlemen http://www.nwtf.org/hunt/article/wild-turkey-subspecies Read the first sentence for each sub species. If you are hunting a specific area of the country for a certain species color is the true test. Yes there are variations but you can't draw a line in the sand and say this is the cut off because turkeys have crossed that line for years. If you are in Florida, you want black wings and dark brown or black tips, easterns have chestnut brown tips, rios buff and merriams white tipped. There are many hybrid variations, as some have stated, for different areas. CONGRATS on a BEAUTIFUL white tipped merriam Tomfoolery!
Interesting descriptions. I wonder what secretary they got to write that up? ;D
All kidding aside, those general characteristic descriptions are just that,...general characteristics. They are also just "lay" descriptions used to try to help hunters identify their turkeys,...especially in areas that are a mix of genetics. With the hybridization issues that exist nowadays, that is the best that a hunter can do.
Having hunted Merriam's turkeys for fifty-plus years in the heart of native Merriam's turkey range in New Mexico, I can state factually that the "snow white tail tips" description given is erroneous,...and in fact, is not even close to being accurate. I will give that description a pass in that, when looking at live birds "on the hoof", they invariably look much whiter than they tend to be once their snood has hit the dirt.
Yes, they will occasionally have very white tail and rump feathers (like Tomfoolery's), but most often their coloration is more accurately described as "pale buff" more than anything else. If a person accepts the "white tips" description as fact, then there have been very few Merriam's turkeys killed in any of it's native ranges.
Now, as for Tomfoolery's gobbler,...yes, it most certainly looks like a full-blooded Merriam's bird,...and I would call it that if I had to make a visual evaluation from that picture. ...But if someone was to tell me I had to bet my life on it one way or the other,...and they were going to determine what it was from DNA analysis, I, for one, would be sweating bullets...or perhaps TSS... ;D
...And finally, my apologies for participating in getting this topic way side-tracked...but since we are here... :toothy12:
We doubled on these two on an "Osceola" hunt near DeLand, FL last week. They were together with several other birds of dubious pedigree. You gott'a just hunt. I Have killed Merriam's in Montana that look like Rio's and Rio's in Texas that look like Merriam's. I'm just tickled I get to go.
When he starts collecting SS and puts on some Bermuda shorts!
Not sure about osceolas because I've never hunted them. But i think Merriam, Rios, and Easterns could be identified more by their gobble than colors. All 3 have distinctly different gobbles.
I've killed gobblers with Osceola-ish traits as far north as SC. I've killed plenty of "Osceolas" in central Florida that looked just like an Eastern. So I'd say the SR70 and south line seems about right.
I've also hunted out in Idaho and Nebraska and seen gobblers that look like Merriams (white) while others look like Rios (buff color).
Here's a bird that I killed in central FLA. He has the black wing traits of an Osceola. Who knows for sure? ???
(https://i.imgur.com/4tHM5dt.jpg)