U.S. Population according to Siri:
1930 - 122,775,046
1970 - 203,302,031
2018 - 329,145,963
Methinks it is past time to rethink our immigration policy. I am not encouraging anyone to take up turkey hunting unless they crave heartbreak. This is not because of selfish motives as I just turned seventy and my time will soon be through. Just an honest observation.
Much bigger reasons this is the case other than immigration. In a sense, and Ik it's gonna sound goofy but the quickest way to make sense of it is that the human population is controlled by feelings and not the way everything else is/was naturally meant to be. But, we still try to manage animals for "carrying capacity". Which that carrying capacity will always get smaller if we spread out more and more like we do.
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More population = more hunters
BUT.... as Sasquatch is getting at
More population = more habitat loss for turkeys. And this in my opinion is hurting the population more than the road hunting, instragram warriors even are.
Quote from: silvestris on July 27, 2018, 11:53:24 PM
Methinks it is past time to rethink our immigration policy.
...And perhaps the notion that a lot of folks seem to have that birth control goes against "God's will".
No arguments or preaching needed,...just pointing out obvious philosophical contradictions some folks have...
Go figure....
How much Public hunting ground had been purchased from 1930-2018 though??
I do agree we have lost ground do to population. I think we've lost more due to a change in time. Fewer people own more ground and are worried more about getting sued over a hunting accident then having a few animals killed to save a few dollars of crop damage which in turn puts more pressure on public hunting areas.
Quote from: HookedonHooks on July 28, 2018, 09:30:16 AM
More population = more hunters
More population = more habitat loss for turkeys. And this in my opinion is hurting the population more than the road hunting, instragram warriors even are.
On the other side of this coin is the obsession some organizations have about recruiting more and more new hunters. How does that into the "crowded public lands" equation?
Quote from: GobbleNut on July 28, 2018, 09:55:05 AM
Quote from: HookedonHooks on July 28, 2018, 09:30:16 AM
More population = more hunters
More population = more habitat loss for turkeys. And this in my opinion is hurting the population more than the road hunting, instragram warriors even are.
On the other side of this coin is the obsession some organizations have about recruiting more and more new hunters. How does that into the "crowded public lands" equation?
It helps to keep the land public and available to us as we will have a bigger voice. I do understand where you are coming from though.
My opinion is the same as everyone elseso far. Another factor i think is all the videos and you tube things showing them that grab a call , sit by a tree and hammer on the call like a scalded dog and gobblers come running.
On a field with a spread of decoys.
Please note that I said " one reason. I hunt as often as I can, but success becomes harder with increased years, a stroke,diabetes, and a brain injury from a bathroom fall. I can control the disease, but I have no control on the other factors, despite my remarkable recovery from the stroke and injury. My deficits exist but I can get to most of the spots I hunt, but it takes more time, and a little less sleep.
Immigration, with serious pressure on our elected officials, can be halted. Potential immigrants should be eager to become good Americans and have something to contribute in maintaining our culture.
However, the other factors mentioned in the above posts are certainly relevant. I just wish you all success and more importantly, pleasure.
Quote from: Spitten and drummen on July 28, 2018, 10:27:38 AM
My opinion is the same as everyone elseso far. Another factor i think is all the videos and you tube things showing them that grab a call , sit by a tree and hammer on the call like a scalded dog and gobblers come running.
And I also agree with all but the birth control comment. The thing is if we do not recruit more we will lose our voice in the political circles as little as it is now and that will lead to the loss of public land to hunters/trappers and fisher persons.
It is a crazy fight but without more new outdoor sports persons our traditions and our voices will go the way of the dodo bird.
In addition to being a hunter and fishermen I am a ham radio operator and because that is not as popular as it once was there is less of a voice for us and we are losing frequencies to operate on and the same thing will happen to sportspersons if we do not grow.
Then, the battle is lost.
Quote from: silvestris on July 28, 2018, 11:51:23 AM
Then, the battle is lost.
Only if we take the attitude of "I just want it to be for me and mine" and do not increase our numbers.
Quote from: silvestris on July 28, 2018, 11:51:23 AM
Then, the battle is lost.
I agree we are losing the battle,but the battle is only lost when everyone quits fighting. I for one won't quit that easy...
I think, a little bit of it is that a larger percentage of the folks hunting public ground have zero vested interest in the property and do things they'd not do if they were hunting a piece of private...........their own OR someone else's.
Kinda like the "drive it like you stole it" mentality of having a rental car or living in Section 8 housing. You can just walk away from it and not look back. Leave the effects of your sin for someone ELSE to deal with.
Quote from: Yoder409 on July 28, 2018, 12:40:52 PM
I think, a little bit of it is that a larger percentage of the folks hunting public ground have zero vested interest in the property and do things they'd not do if they were hunting a piece of private...........their own OR someone else's.
Kinda like the "drive it like you stole it" mentality of having a rental car or living in Section 8 housing. You can just walk away from it and not look back. Leave the effects of your sin for someone ELSE to deal with.
I do agree with this. Take for instance cigarette butts, I see so many people throwing them away on both private and especially public land. I used to be one of those that did but I was watching a movie one night or maybe it was just a show but it was a crime solver type of show and I remember in the one scene the cop or PI deduced that they perp may have had a military background because he had waited in the woman's house for her to come home and he also smoked there. The thing that tipped the guy that he may be military is that instead of butting the cigarette out like most people do and leaving it in the ashtray he had emptied the tobacco out after he had butted it and took the filtered part with him and that is something they do on military bases so that they don't have butts all over the place. Ever since then I would put the cigarette out empty the remaining tobacco and then put the butt in my pocket so I did not leave a mess of butts behind. It was just something that did not occurred to me but I wanted to respect the land I was able to hunt on. I make it a point to try to make the place better than when I got there. I carry trash bags in case I see a mess I can take it with me, especially when you see it on public land under a tree stand and there are a ton of beer cans and hand warmers all over underneath the stand, that is not an image we need.
Throw social media and camcorders in the mix too!
Wildlife react too pressure
Lack of food off spring drops
population was recently discussed here - http://oldgobbler.com/Forum/index.php/topic,83500.msg821535.html#msg821535
"I agree with population being an issue... it floors me people don't really talk about this as it's the root of many issues. Knowing that... do you really think your secret public land hunting spot is going to be less crowded next year and the year after?
Also - private lease prices are going to continue to go through the roof as more land vanishes to accommodate more people, development, etc.
Just look at what has happened to Florida over the last 30 years.... I would bet a guided Osceola hunt in Florida will cost over 10K in the not so distant future.
I see turkey hunters will a few choices in the decades to come. 1. Hunt public with countless other hunters calling every 100 yards apart. Or pay for high dollar leases, or outfitters. Hunting will become a rich mans sport over the coming decades for those hunters that can't tolerate the rat race on public land. This is already becoming the case in Fla.
And yes, there is still plenty of open land in Montana, Wyoming and some other western states now... but I assure you that will change to with time. You guys over 40 can remember how things "used to be" around where you live. Just imagine the changes to come..
I honestly don't see as much pressure on public land as I used to. Yes there are still people hunting but it most often the easy to reach spots. It's obvious however that the dedication ain't there. I love public ground and I haven't turkey hunted a piece of ground that wasn't available to hundreds of people. I have noticed more people flooding areas that are well known as turkey hotspots. Everyone want the "easy" birds and they can fight each other for them. Me, I will keep climbing mountains, and getting up at 2:30 am to hike for miles before daylight. If it means enough to you then you will find a way. I live in a place where hunting is still considered normal and we still take our hats off for the national anthem before a game. I hope it stays that way till I am dead and gone and I hope my children carry on the tradition. The future of our sport is crucial. I just hope I can teach the handful of kids I take each year to represent it well and with respect.
I hunt both public and private land. My experience on public land is early in the season it is much more crowded and as the season progresses the crowds become non-existent. I have hunted public land late in the season and not seen another hunter. I am retired so I do avoid weekends which also may be part of the reason. The biggest effect I see on the population explosion is larger tracts of land are being cut up into small parcels that too small to hunt even if you can get permission.
I agree that the fundamental root of the "problem" is human population growth. However, the number of people who hunt is steadily decreasing. As I recall (and my recollection is admittedly questionable), the current percentage of people who hunt in the U.S. is down to about 3%. A decade or so ago, it was around 7%,...and three or four decades ago, it was about 15%.
Three things are happening: 1) fewer and fewer younger-generation folks are taking up hunting; 2) the older generation is dying out or quitting due to age; and 3) hunters in all age groups are quitting due to increased difficulty in being able to find places to hunt.
On the other hand, those of us that are dedicated hunters are sticking with it,...and even expanding our horizons,...hence, the increasing numbers of turkey hunters traveling to hunt different states and the like.
The bottom line is that there has to be a balance between the welfare of the resource (wildlife populations) and the amount of hunting pressure that can be put on that resource.
We, as hunters, strive to preserve the hunting tradition because we have seen how it enhances our lives We do that by trying to "pass it on" to younger generations. We also see that as protecting our own interests as hunters by having more voices of support for hunting in a world that, overall, sees less and less value in the human hunter.
The dilemma we face in recruiting more and more hunters is that we are, in actuality, negatively impacting our own hunting experiences,...and as has been demonstrated by the trends and demographics, too many hunters begins to sour even the most ardent hunter.
The point is that we need to be careful what we wish for in terms of hunter recruitment. As we are beginning to see, too many of us can come back to bite us in the butt. I could go into great detail as to how that has affected us out here in my home state,...perhaps another time.,
You bring up some valid points for a senile old man gobblenut. To me though the best answer lies somewhere in the middle. I will sacrifice some of "my" turkeys and turkey hunting time to some newcomers to help out. I think I am responsible for the death of fewer turkeys now than say 5-6 years ago. A lot of that is due to taking kids and inexperienced adults. I still love to shoot them but I honestly love watching newcomers get on them as just as much. I am not bent on creating die hard hunters, I do wish to foster an understanding of wildlife and the respect a true hunter gives it. Life, death and the correct use of wild game for some delicious and healthy meals as well as a love for being outdoors. TV shows for the most part are in my opinion a horrible representation of our sport. We don't need to create die hard hunters, we do need to properly educate those around us on what the true hunters are really about.
The dilemma we face in recruiting more and more hunters is that we are, in actuality, negatively impacting our own hunting experiences,...and as has been demonstrated by the trends and demographics, too many hunters begins to sour even the most ardent hunter.
bingo! it's a double edged sword.
As for the number of hunters, the percentage has dropped. But I guess it seems like more hunters everywhere you go now because of the population increases and less available private land (those hunters are now having to hunt public) Looking back on the previous 25 years.. can you imagine how public land will look in the next 25 years..?
I'll also add in regards to the recruitment of new younger hunters... there is just a lot of other "noise" and things out there today for them to do. Factor in all the video games, and tech gadgets...many of them would rather stay home.
This is a great topic!
Thanks, FL-BOSS. Immigration/population is a topic I frequently ponder. Our traditional American culture is rapidly disappearing, and it is a tragic loss in many ways. Overcrowding of public land, cost of private land, and the fact that it is about impossible to find a spot to pull over to urinate because of the traffic. I, for one, am for an almost totally end to all immigration, illegal and illegal, until this country can reach a consensus on just exactly who and what we want to be.
Well put NCL, Gobblenut and Happy, you are make excellent points. You are far from senile Gobblenut, you always bring excellent points to a discussion.
Personally I have no problem with immagration provided it is done legally and they become productive members of society. That means taxed and treated like any other citizen. No handouts. My big issue is that certain lawmakers feel like we have to protect the unproductive citizens. And I am not talking about those that legitimately cannot work. I am talking about the drug addicts and lifelong welfare recipients that are just to lazy to work. I propose we include southern California in the building of the wall. On the other side of course. They can all live there and see how life turns out. That and if you really want to see things turn around make it mandatory that you pay taxes in order to be able to vote. If you aren't chipping into the system then you have no say in how it's run.
Quote from: Happy on July 29, 2018, 03:05:53 PM
Personally I have no problem with immagration provided it is done legally and they become productive members of society. That means taxed and treated like any other citizen. No handouts. My big issue is that certain lawmakers feel like we have to protect the unproductive citizens. And I am not talking about those that legitimately cannot work. I am talking about the drug addicts and lifelong welfare recipients that are just to lazy to work. I propose we include southern California in the building of the wall. On the other side of course. They can all live there and see how life turns out. That and if you really want to see things turn around make it mandatory that you pay taxes in order to be able to vote. If you aren't chipping into the system then you have no say in how it's run.
You mean they wouldn't get a refund if they don't pay in ???? :TooFunny: Probably don't vote so that part probably wouldn't offend anyone. :icon_thumright:
Quote from: GobbleNut on July 29, 2018, 09:42:05 AM
I agree that the fundamental root of the "problem" is human population growth. However, the number of people who hunt is steadily decreasing. As I recall (and my recollection is admittedly questionable), the current percentage of people who hunt in the U.S. is down to about 3%. A decade or so ago, it was around 7%,...and three or four decades ago, it was about 15%.
Smaller percentage, but, of a much larger total number still can equal the same or be even more. But yes, we aren't seeing kids out hunting and caring to like we once did.
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hey Sil I will agree that it has got way harder to kill a bird down here in Ms. and we have hunted some of the same public land, the wma I used to like to hunt has become so hard I have quit using it and so has everyone else, so its not pressure or lose of habitat, the birds are just not there anymore. The wma's that I used to call the big 3 have a lot of chicken plants around them and the only people they can get to work them are Mexican but I have never saw one of them hunting on the Wma's, so I am not sure that immigration is the problem on the public lands there. Sil what is your opinion on the land that Ms wildlife dept of wildlife just purchased? I know of a lot of guys lost their clubs in this purchase. I have been in two private clubs the last 30 years that are timber co. that have cut every tree them so I am looking for a new place next season and it is getting harder!
Bailey, I wasn't aware of a big land purchase in MS. We do have a huge problem with our turkeys. I used to be come up with the cause of periodic population problems, but I am left with the "beats me?" answer to this one.
Sil they bought close to 30 thousand acres in Warren co. Anderson Tully land, members were told they had only weeks to get their stuff out, camps that had been in going for more than 20 years!
I used to work down by the public land you hunt Sil, WW Dixion and Warren Hood land, private places that don't have birds like they used to, still not sure why the birds aren't there any more!
Quote from: Happy on July 29, 2018, 11:21:55 AM
You bring up some valid points for a senile old man gobblenut.
Quote from: Sir-diealot on July 29, 2018, 02:58:20 PM
Well put NCL, Gobblenut and Happy, you are make excellent points. You are far from senile Gobblenut, you always bring excellent points to a discussion.
Don't take Happy seriously, Sir-diealot. He is one of those young whipper-snappers that thinks he knows more than us "elderly statesmen" around here. Besides, calling me senile is a compliment,...most others just think I have dementia. As the saying goes, of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most.
Even so,...I'm still smarter than some West Virginia and Alablama boys I know around here... ;D :toothy12: :toothy9:
Quote from: GobbleNut on July 29, 2018, 11:42:51 PM
Quote from: Happy on July 29, 2018, 11:21:55 AM
You bring up some valid points for a senile old man gobblenut.
Quote from: Sir-diealot on July 29, 2018, 02:58:20 PM
Well put NCL, Gobblenut and Happy, you are make excellent points. You are far from senile Gobblenut, you always bring excellent points to a discussion.
Don't take Happy seriously, Sir-diealot. He is one of those young whipper-snappers that thinks he knows more than us "elderly statesmen" around here. Besides, calling me senile is a compliment,...most others just think I have dementia. As the saying goes, of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most.
Even so,...I'm still smarter than some West Virginia and Alablama boys I know around here... ;D :toothy12: :toothy9:
lol I know ya'll were joshing, I pick on myself a lot as well like you did yourself before his comment.
Quote from: Sir-diealot on July 30, 2018, 12:25:52 AM
Quote from: GobbleNut on July 29, 2018, 11:42:51 PM
Quote from: Happy on July 29, 2018, 11:21:55 AM
You bring up some valid points for a senile old man gobblenut.
Quote from: Sir-diealot on July 29, 2018, 02:58:20 PM
Well put NCL, Gobblenut and Happy, you are make excellent points. You are far from senile Gobblenut, you always bring excellent points to a discussion.
Don't take Happy seriously, Sir-diealot. He is one of those young whipper-snappers that thinks he knows more than us "elderly statesmen" around here. Besides, calling me senile is a compliment,...most others just think I have dementia. As the saying goes, of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most.
Even so,...I'm still smarter than some West Virginia and Alablama boys I know around here... ;D :toothy12: :toothy9:
lol I know ya'll were joshing, I pick on myself a lot as well like you did yourself before his comment.
I don't know about me being smart and all. I am still trying to find my white privilege. I didn't know I had it but apparently I do. Apparently as soon as I find it I need to feel bad about it so if anyone knows where it might be located I would appreciate some directions.
On a serious note I still believe that the drop in population is due to a lot of factors.
There is a higher number of avian predators than I can ever remember in the past.
The lack of trapping has led to more nest predation than in years past.
The trend of baiting wildlife has led to more turkeys being concentrated on those private tracts and staying there. I believe things need to be analyzed and changes made in order to boost overall numbers. To me the options are to restrict bag limits or tighten up the regs on legal means of hunting them. As a side note I haven't seen the wildlife officers actively seeking out poaching or even patrolling as much as I used to either. That might help a bit as well.
One thing I've failed to see mentioned in this thread is how the bulk of wildlife conservation is funded: through excise taxes on hunting/fishing equipment, guns and ammo, and the sale of hunting/fishing licenses. Less hunters, less spending, less money towards wildlife conservation. So those of you who are having second thoughts on hunter recruitment, be careful what you wish for.
Quote from: deerhunt1988 on July 30, 2018, 06:13:21 AM
One thing I've failed to see mentioned in this thread is how the bulk of wildlife conservation is funded: through excise taxes on hunting/fishing equipment, guns and ammo, and the sale of hunting/fishing licenses. Less hunters, less spending, less money towards wildlife conservation. So those of you who are having second thoughts on hunter recruitment, be careful what you wish for.
I kill my fair share of birds. But YOU are detrimental to the population more than big spring rains haha.
All jokes aside, good points!
Ready for the elk mountains yet? Heading out in sept if you wanna join camp!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Turkey hunting used to be something that took patience and skill. Now every slob on tv just hops out of the truck with a fan in front of their face and goes out and kills one. Or sits in a blind with a jake decoy and never picks up a call. I hope this is just a phase, but im worried about the future of turkey hunting.
Quote from: Happy on July 30, 2018, 06:03:25 AM
On a serious note I still believe that the drop in population is due to a lot of factors.
There is a higher number of avian predators than I can ever remember in the past.
The lack of trapping has led to more nest predation than in years past.
The trend of baiting wildlife has led to more turkeys being concentrated on those private tracts and staying there. I believe things need to be analyzed and changes made in order to boost overall numbers. To me the options are to restrict bag limits or tighten up the regs on legal means of hunting them. As a side note I haven't seen the wildlife officers actively seeking out poaching or even patrolling as much as I used to either. That might help a bit as well.
All great points, Happy,...and the cumulative affect of all of these, plus others mentioned, make it very difficult to implement management strategies that will have much impact. All of the negative elements could be offset with a few good years of nesting success and poult survival, assuming there are enough adult turkeys left for that and all the stars line up to create conditions for that.
Perhaps a renewed emphasis on trapping and transplanting turkeys would speed up the process. The more adults that are out there, the more difference one or two good years of successful reproduction would make. A mind-set like that from back in the seventies and eighties, when wildlife management agencies and sportsmen/NWTF were focused on trap and transplant efforts, would certainly help, I believe.
Quote from: GobbleNut on July 29, 2018, 09:42:05 AM
I agree that the fundamental root of the "problem" is human population growth. However, the number of people who hunt is steadily decreasing. As I recall (and my recollection is admittedly questionable), the current percentage of people who hunt in the U.S. is down to about 3%. A decade or so ago, it was around 7%,...and three or four decades ago, it was about 15%.
Three things are happening: 1) fewer and fewer younger-generation folks are taking up hunting; 2) the older generation is dying out or quitting due to age; and 3) hunters in all age groups are quitting due to increased difficulty in being able to find places to hunt.
On the other hand, those of us that are dedicated hunters are sticking with it,...and even expanding our horizons,...hence, the increasing numbers of turkey hunters traveling to hunt different states and the like.
The bottom line is that there has to be a balance between the welfare of the resource (wildlife populations) and the amount of hunting pressure that can be put on that resource.
We, as hunters, strive to preserve the hunting tradition because we have seen how it enhances our lives We do that by trying to "pass it on" to younger generations. We also see that as protecting our own interests as hunters by having more voices of support for hunting in a world that, overall, sees less and less value in the human hunter.
The dilemma we face in recruiting more and more hunters is that we are, in actuality, negatively impacting our own hunting experiences,...and as has been demonstrated by the trends and demographics, too many hunters begins to sour even the most ardent hunter.
The point is that we need to be careful what we wish for in terms of hunter recruitment. As we are beginning to see, too many of us can come back to bite us in the butt. I could go into great detail as to how that has affected us out here in my home state,...perhaps another time.,
Very well stated. I do question if the hunting population is actually numerical going down or in reality just static. What I mean by the statement is as the population of the US rises, unless that hunting population rises at the same rate the percentage will fall, 7% of a 100 million people is actually less than 3% of 350 million people.
Quote from: deerhunt1988 on July 30, 2018, 06:13:21 AM
One thing I've failed to see mentioned in this thread is how the bulk of wildlife conservation is funded: through excise taxes on hunting/fishing equipment, guns and ammo, and the sale of hunting/fishing licenses. Less hunters, less spending, less money towards wildlife conservation. So those of you who are having second thoughts on hunter recruitment, be careful what you wish for.
I personally have nothing against recruiting new hunters. If a kid or adult decides they want to go hunting, that's great. ...But that has to be balanced with the fact that too much of a good thing is detrimental to both our wildlife resources and the hunting community, in general. The human hunting pressure that can be placed on our wildlife is finite. There is a tipping point.
To me, having a smaller number of dedicated hunters/conservationists that understand wildlife management and the role of hunting in our world is better than having ten times that many with 90% of them looking at hunting as nothing more than a real-life video game.
Your statement regarding the issue of who pays for wildlife conservation is right on target. We most certainly have outgrown the concept of hunters and fishermen paying for everything. It is high time that other funding mechanisms be investigated and implemented that include everybody, hunters and non-hunters alike. (Some states have implemented a general-fund, tax earmark for this,...and it seems to be working out just fine as far as I know)
The "double-edged sword" in that concept, however, is that by getting everybody involved in paying for wildlife conservation, you bring the anti-hunters and anti-leaning non-hunters to the management table. That has its own inherent risks, but for me personally, that is better than flooding the woods with the real-life, video game players who, other than pulling the trigger, don't do one positive thing for wildlife conservation,...or hunter's image.
Quote from: NCL on July 30, 2018, 08:54:32 AM
I do question if the hunting population is actually numerical going down or in reality just static. What I mean by the statement is as the population of the US rises, unless that hunting population rises at the same rate the percentage will fall, 7% of a 100 million people is actually less than 3% of 350 million people.
Of course, you are right in that math and logic. I believe, overall, that actual hunter numbers are going down in a lot of places (if I wasn't so lazy, I would take the time to research it... ;D). Conversely, I am certain that in some places and with some game species, the numbers are increasing. I believe turkey hunting, in particular, is following that trend.
Several years ago, I read a report that stated that hunter numbers were decreasing in every arena except turkey hunting. I don't know if that is still the case, but it does shed some light on some of the crowded-woods discussions we have had here.
Quote from: GobbleNut on July 30, 2018, 09:05:11 AM
Quote from: deerhunt1988 on July 30, 2018, 06:13:21 AM
One thing I've failed to see mentioned in this thread is how the bulk of wildlife conservation is funded: through excise taxes on hunting/fishing equipment, guns and ammo, and the sale of hunting/fishing licenses. Less hunters, less spending, less money towards wildlife conservation. So those of you who are having second thoughts on hunter recruitment, be careful what you wish for.
I personally have nothing against recruiting new hunters. If a kid or adult decides they want to go hunting, that's great. ...But that has to be balanced with the fact that too much of a good thing is detrimental to both our wildlife resources and the hunting community, in general. The human hunting pressure that can be placed on our wildlife is finite. There is a tipping point.
To me, having a smaller number of dedicated hunters/conservationists that understand wildlife management and the role of hunting in our world is better than having ten times that many with 90% of them looking at hunting as nothing more than a real-life video game.
Your statement regarding the issue of who pays for wildlife conservation is right on target. We most certainly have outgrown the concept of hunters and fishermen paying for everything. It is high time that other funding mechanisms be investigated and implemented that include everybody, hunters and non-hunters alike. (Some states have implemented a general-fund, tax earmark for this,...and it seems to be working out just fine as far as I know)
The "double-edged sword" in that concept, however, is that by getting everybody involved in paying for wildlife conservation, you bring the anti-hunters and anti-leaning non-hunters to the management table. That has its own inherent risks, but for me personally, that is better than flooding the woods with the real-life, video game players who, other than pulling the trigger, don't do one positive thing for wildlife conservation,...or hunter's image.
Hey, leave the video gamers out of this, I is one! :P Though it is becoming less and less since I have started to be able to hunt again.
Quote from: GobbleNut on July 29, 2018, 11:42:51 PM
I'm still smarter than some West Virginia and Alablama boys I know around here... ;D :toothy12: :toothy9:
Anybody I know? ???
Quote from: guesswho on July 30, 2018, 04:37:45 PM
Quote from: GobbleNut on July 29, 2018, 11:42:51 PM
I'm still smarter than some West Virginia and Alablama boys I know around here... ;D :toothy12: :toothy9:
Anybody I know? ???
I figured you would be able to "guess who" I might be referring to.... ;D :toothy12: :TooFunny:
It seems I have read somewhere that surveys indicate the biggest reason for decline in hunting license sales is due loss of access and/or no access.
With Google Earth and knowledge of home ground, be it public or private, where there is a will there's a way. There are pockets of huntable ground. Or different ways of getting there. Good old American know how and perseverance will show you huntable areas. When the going gets tough the tough gets going. Hang in there! You can see the ground with satellite photos from your home! See the terrain, paths, trails. Check it out.
Quote from: GobbleNut on July 30, 2018, 09:05:11 AM
Quote from: deerhunt1988 on July 30, 2018, 06:13:21 AM
One thing I've failed to see mentioned in this thread is how the bulk of wildlife conservation is funded: through excise taxes on hunting/fishing equipment, guns and ammo, and the sale of hunting/fishing licenses. Less hunters, less spending, less money towards wildlife conservation. So those of you who are having second thoughts on hunter recruitment, be careful what you wish for.
I personally have nothing against recruiting new hunters. If a kid or adult decides they want to go hunting, that's great. ...But that has to be balanced with the fact that too much of a good thing is detrimental to both our wildlife resources and the hunting community, in general. The human hunting pressure that can be placed on our wildlife is finite. There is a tipping point.
To me, having a smaller number of dedicated hunters/conservationists that understand wildlife management and the role of hunting in our world is better than having ten times that many with 90% of them looking at hunting as nothing more than a real-life video game.
Your statement regarding the issue of who pays for wildlife conservation is right on target. We most certainly have outgrown the concept of hunters and fishermen paying for everything. It is high time that other funding mechanisms be investigated and implemented that include everybody, hunters and non-hunters alike. (Some states have implemented a general-fund, tax earmark for this,...and it seems to be working out just fine as far as I know)
The "double-edged sword" in that concept, however, is that by getting everybody involved in paying for wildlife conservation, you bring the anti-hunters and anti-leaning non-hunters to the management table. That has its own inherent risks, but for me personally, that is better than flooding the woods with the real-life, video game players who, other than pulling the trigger, don't do one positive thing for wildlife conservation,...or hunter's image.
I've met many very kind dog walkers, hikers, bikers, and "recreators" out on our public lands. That still doesn't mean I don't look at them with a jaundiced eye when it comes to them not paying towards the resources that we hunters do, while still getting to use it as freely as they please. As far as the inherent risks you mentioned, I am on the same page as you are. I think there's a natural balance that can be struck between the seasonality of when "we" prefer using those public lands respectively.
I only hunt public land in my home state and when traveling. Some states are a lot less crowded and the Turkey population a lot better. But in my home state of Louisiana even with a small turkey population and thousands of mouth breathers squawking on box call from daylight till dark I'm still able to find and kill Gobblers every year. This topic has came up several times before. The older hunters that started out in the late 1970's or 1980's when there were few turkey hunters and a lot of the turkey populations were booming lament the good ol days. Turkeys have adapted the hunting pressure has increased dramatically and the old tactics don't work as well as 1985. I came into it a little later so don't have the "good ol days" to compare to but I have also adapted my hunting through the years as pressure increased and populations declined. I doubt anyone will ever see again the super high densitys of turkeys we had when the populations were expanding. If you cannot adapt you will not be successful.
And I doubt seriously elligal immigration has anything to do with you killing or not killing a gobbler.
Not sure how many will be able to see this, it is on Facebook and touches on some of the points made here very well. https://www.facebook.com/nprskunkbear/videos/342994549439018/?hc_ref=ARSZ8UCncQFsCvTRoaWHWmWNkQpZrSsLh2DZOVCJ7qqcryDlrobT-rWHjxfDJlNWBk8
Edit: I should have looked first, here it is on Youtube where anyone can watch it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOvCpxjr0h0
Public turkey hunting land has more pressure, from more hunters, who call too much and too often, drive up and down roads calling, and slam their truck doors. This undoubtedly affects the birds negatively. There are also guys who have no respect for other hunters, especially if you are the first one in an area.
As greencop01 pointed out, people that used to not have what it takes to put in the extra effort to scout for good areas, can now cyberscout and good areas that you used to have to work for are now loaded with weekend warriors.
I have been very successful over the years on public land in FLA. But with turkey hunting gaining popularity, and FWC screwing up the permit process and making it harder to get drawn for a decent hunt, it's not the same. There are still plenty of good birds killed on public land every year, but you have to work a lot harder for them. If it was up to me, I wouldn't hunt much public land as I get really frustrated by the idiot hunters, aka. Walking Wally's. I hate scouting and doing my homework, only to be covered up by Wally's on opening morning. Unfortunately, living in FLA (for now), I can't afford a good lease due to everyone having to come to FLA to get their slams, and the landowners and outfitters driving the prices through the roof. So, public land it is for me, at least when I hunt turkeys in FLA.
Public Land here in New York and New Jersey seems to get tougher by the year. More hunters yes-- but also plenty more hikers. I am a hiker also. Alot of hikers are getting out super early in Spring, Summer, and the Fall as well. Hikers know if they get out very early- they will see more wildlife. Something new, I am seeing is hikers bring their dogs and let them off the leash on a trail. Not good for Turkey hunters Spring or Fall.
Quote from: quavers59 on August 12, 2018, 12:45:09 PM
Public Land here in New York and New Jersey seems to get tougher by the year. More hunters yes-- but also plenty more hikers. I am a hiker also. Alot of hikers are getting out super early in Spring, Summer, and the Fall as well. Hikers know if they get out very early- they will see more wildlife. Something new, I am seeing is hikers bring their dogs and let them off the leash on a trail. Not good for Turkey hunters Spring or Fall.
I have had my dog attacked more than once by these idiots that don't leash their dogs, I am carrying a fixed blade knife with me now to protect mine. She is always leashed.
More population also means more concrete. This effects all hunting. More concrete = less habitat. Ive seen this first hand with the waterfowl population down south. What used to be flooded fields are now subdivisions. What used to be woods are now golf courses and more subdivisions, strip malls, etc.
Side X Sides have all but ruined the Black Hills in SD. I guess the state saw the dollar signs and decided hunting wasn't as profitable. They've put trails on every acre of that national forest it seems.
Quote from: Bolandstrutters on September 05, 2018, 08:08:46 AM
Side X Sides have all but ruined the Black Hills in SD. I guess the state saw the dollar signs and decided hunting wasn't as profitable. They've put trails on every acre of that national forest it seems.
Florida did the same thing several years back. Problem is the jerks didn't appreciate the value of having thousands of acres to recreate on, and tore the hell out of the land with their ATVs, didn't stay on the trails, and left trash all over. Numerous times I was in a treestand and had groups of ATV's coming roaring by right under my tree in areas off limits to them.
Florida has since started closing down those same lands to ATVs. There are much fewer areas to ride now because of people who don't respect the privelege.
Hey me again with another comment. Just check out the Pinhoti Project and let Dave show you how with I- Phone and map apps on public land. That's about all he hunted this season and its all on video. Check it out. Cant miss turkey hunting on PUBLIC LAND. :funnyturkey:
I love public land in Delaware, IF I get drawn. Public land is on a lottery basis for a permit. If you get drawn, it's just like private land.