Man I'm addicted to this board. Kinetic energy is defined as (mass x velocity squared) / (2). I don't believe what I read until proven so here go the numbers. Lead in grams per pellet in 4,6,7 shot respectively - .21310, .12910, .9700. Hevi-13 in grams per pellet 4,6,7 respectively - .24516, .19282, .14852. Velocity of the lead will vary with load, but I used 1200 fps. Heavi-13 is 1090 fps. So with physics, here are the results in foot pounds of kinetic energy:
Lead 4 = 10.5 6 = 6.4 7 = 4.1
Hevi-13 4 = 10.0 6 = 7.9 7 = 6.1
The big advantage I see in Hevi is the pellet count. Remember this is energy per pellet. Energy is only transferred completely if the pellet does not exit the target. Those that blow right through a bird transfer only part of their energy, the rest is wasted. Take it for what it's worth but this was eye opening for me. The 40% more energy claim does not hold water unless you are counting on more pellets hitting the target.
Quote from: slickyboyboo on April 20, 2011, 10:00:45 AM
You also must consider the hardness of the shot, being Hevi is much harder than lead, and therefore doesn't deform, resulting in better penetration, even with 1-2 shot sizes smaller.
Also there is no such thing anymore as Hevi-13, it is all regular 12 g/cc Hevi-shot. This was confirmed by one of the VPs at EM.
My point exactly. Lead will most likely transfer most of its energy by "mushrooming" and staying with the target. Hevi will not mushroom. Much like shooting solids in a rifle. Could be good, could be bad. That is another discussion. The numbers for mass that I used are, I believe, up to date for the newer Hevi. I'm not trying to go against the flow, just trying to put the facts out there.
If my numbers are wrong then the Hevi mass is too high. The energy in turn would be even lower.
Another thing you didn't consider in your calculations is down range velocities and what the KE at those ranges will be. A heavier projectile, with the same aero profile, will lose it's velocity at a slower rate down range due to higher momentum. Number at the muzzle don't mean a whole lot. Not trying to nit pick....just something else to ponder as you think through all of it....
Quote from: JUGHEAD on April 20, 2011, 10:28:52 AM
Another thing you didn't consider in your calculations is down range velocities and what the KE at those ranges will be. A heavier projectile, with the same aero profile, will lose it's velocity at a slower rate down range due to higher momentum. Number at the muzzle don't mean a whole lot. Not trying to nit pick....just something else to ponder as you think through all of it....
Very true... Think about hitting a golf ball with a club, and then a ping pong ball.
You strike both at the same speed, and the ping pong ball slows right down, and curves all over the place...
Better patterns and holding velocity...
Quote from: slickyboyboo on April 20, 2011, 10:36:29 AM
JUGHEAD, very true! A heavier pellet of the same size will bleed off speed and therefore energy much slower, and thus need less velocity at the muzzle to acheive the same energy and penetration downrange.
Proper wieght of Hevi pellets (Hevi-13 or Hevi-shot, both are the same) should be:
#4 - 0.22630
#6 - 0.13710
#7 - 0.10300
Thanks for the info. New calculations would then be:
Lead #4 10.5 #6 6.4 #7 4.1
Hevi #4 9.2 #6 5.6 #7 4.2
You guys are right about downrange velocities. Do not take it as nit picking at all. It needs to be considered. I wish I could find some data on say velocity at 40 yards. Both will decrease, so these numbers are both obviously a little high past initial muzzle velocity. Trying to do the calculations myself is a logistical nightmare. Too many variables! I will be shooting the Hevi's this year, but the math has me leaning toward the mag blends with the increased velocity. Thoughts?
Quote from: jfair on April 20, 2011, 10:58:40 AM
...I will be shooting the Hevi's this year, but the math has me leaning toward the mag blends with the increased velocity. Thoughts?
I would go with the increased pattern density of straight #7's, even at the lower velocity. I've twice witnessed a low-flying #7 pellet completely penetrate the breast and end up under the skin on the OPPOSITE side of the bird...both times in the 35-40 yard range. That's plenty of oomph! ;)
I would go with the increased pattern density of straight #7's, even at the lower velocity. I've twice witnessed a low-flying #7 pellet completely penetrate the breast and end up under the skin on the OPPOSITE side of the bird...both times in the 35-40 yard range. That's plenty of oomph! ;)
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You are right about pattern density. I have a box of 7's and mag blend on the way to try them. Only have shot the 6's and am around 180 pellets with them. Energy numbers are per pellet. The more pellets, the more energy, and more chance to hit a "sweet spot".
Deformation plays no role in killing turkeys. We strive to do one thing, damage the CNS(break the skull or neck bone). Density and hardness play a large role in breaking bone. Hevi will break bone much easier than lead, but that is not why it is a better shot for long range. It is a better shot plainly because it will place impacts on target when lead will not.
There's absolutely nothing in the world wrong with shooting lead shot at turkeys, but will someone please post a lead pattern that achieves over 100 hits in the 10 at 60+yds. Maybe we should rephrase that and say 50yds :D
I could use lead from now on with complete confidence. However, I'd have a 40-45yd confidence range depending on the gun. I'll be danged if I'm going to have to pass up the rare bird that hangs at 50-60 when I'm on limited time. I like to kill em at 30 as much as the next guy, but crap happens in the turkey woods.
Friday was a perfect example. My cousin Heath had a nice tom at 55yds in a NE wind with no chance for a closer shot as the tom was leaving for hens. He gave the bird 10" lead into the wind and absolutely devastated his noggin with a hevi 7 handload. He has kill counts past 65yds with that particular setup, slash 10yds for the conditions, and he had a dead bird with a blood soaked head full of holes and a completely broken neck bone. I walk up to the bird and he said "I would have had to let him walk with lead shot" I said yep, sure would've.
Have a good one,
Reloader
Quote from: new2turkey on April 20, 2011, 10:32:41 AM
Quote from: JUGHEAD on April 20, 2011, 10:28:52 AM
Another thing you didn't consider in your calculations is down range velocities and what the KE at those ranges will be. A heavier projectile, with the same aero profile, will lose it's velocity at a slower rate down range due to higher momentum. Number at the muzzle don't mean a whole lot. Not trying to nit pick....just something else to ponder as you think through all of it....
Very true... Think about hitting a golf ball with a club, and then a ping pong ball.
You strike both at the same speed, and the ping pong ball slows right down, and curves all over the place...
Better patterns and holding velocity...
Maybe we could get a company to manufacture pellets with dimples like a golf ball. ;D Would decrease the drag and keep them flying straight.
Try that experiment again with a golf ball and a bowling ball. Point being that the ratios are not in line.
I am in full agreement on Hevi being better than lead. Pattern density being top of my list. I can shoot 110's with lead and 180's with hevi, so hevi it is. My feeling is if you are shooting an even pattern and keeping over 100 in the 10 inches then fire away at that range, lead or hevi. Maybe not on this board but I know allot of guys who think this stuff is a killer load at 50, 60, 70 yards and never bother to see for themselves what the pattern is. The talk is that hevi has that much more kinetic energy. Simply saying "hevi does not have that much more kinetic energy, not according to the math".
IMO you don't want to push HS faster than the speed of sound. Projectiles with poor ballistic coefficients breaking the sound barrier can have erratic flight. I think EM purposely keeps it just under the speed of sound.
I may be way off, some of you guys may load HS with higher MV's with great results?
Quote from: drenalinld on April 20, 2011, 11:58:18 AM
IMO you don't want to push HS faster than the speed of sound. Projectiles with poor ballistic coefficients breaking the sound barrier can have erratic flight. I think EM purposely keeps it just under the speed of sound.
I may be way off, some of you guys may load HS with higher MV's with great results?
Right on with the ballistic coefficients. Most competition air rifles shoot in the 600 fps range because of the accuracy tailing off at higher velocities. They are punching paper and not turkeys though. Got to find that point you cannot cross.
1150-1350 is the sweet spot for hevi. EM's low MV theory is bunk.
So I'm way off. I guess the SD of HS is high enough that the sound barrier has little effect on it.
jfair - i was thinking from an air rifle standpoint as well
reloader - I'm not sure if it is EM's theory or not, just my suggestion of a possibility for them keeping velocity down. I'm sure they are cutting costs.
I would go with the increased pattern density of straight #7's, even at the lower velocity. I've twice witnessed a low-flying #7 pellet completely penetrate the breast and end up under the skin on the OPPOSITE side of the bird...both times in the 35-40 yard range. That's plenty of oomph! ;)
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That's amazing out of a #7 I have shot a bunch of birds with Hevi-13 5's & 6's and only the 5's have made it to the breast bone on any of the birds a few have broke through into the vitals but not many, I shot a nice bird the other day at 45 yards with Hevi-13 3" 2oz #6's and it stomped him but every body hit was just a little bruise, Broken feathers on the outside but a little purple bruise on the skin.
Kurt
This is the off side of a 22lb tom hit with hevi 7.5s at 35yds, the little red spots exited. Both breast and breast bone were fully penetrated.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y26/Reloader01/MVC-020S-1.jpg)
I've seen the exact thing happen with 7.5s on two large toms where I held too low, both at 35yds. I also commonly find flyers stuck to the off side hide that went completely through the bird. I broke a toms wing at 50 this year with 7.5s, had a buddy that broke a toms leg at 53, and witnessed a toms neck completely broken like a limp noodle with 7.5s at 55yds(LRF).
Turkeys are very easy to penetrate. Hunters get way too caught up in energy and penetration debates IMO. If it says "Turkey" on the box, find out how far it will consistently place 100 in the 10, keep your shots to that limit in calm conditions, and go kill turkeys.
Have a good one,
Reloader
I am attaching my chart of shot KE in ft/lbs. It shows all the various shot types in the common sizes shot on this page. It shows the KE at various velocities. I posted it before the crash, so I will post it again here. Take note of 2 interisting things:
If it is really true that it takes 1.5 ft.lbs of KE to "kill" a turkey, then:
TSS #9 carries that at 700 fps
HS #7 (12 g/cc) carries that at about 650 fps
[attachment deleted by admin]
Quote from: LaBiologist on April 20, 2011, 07:03:25 PM
I am attaching my chart of shot KE in ft/lbs. It shows all the various shot types in the common sizes shot on this page. It shows the KE at various velocities. I posted it before the crash, so I will post it again here. Take note of 2 interisting things:
If it is really true that it takes 1.5 ft.lbs of KE to "kill" a turkey, then:
TSS #9 carries that at 700 fps
HS #7 (12 g/cc) carries that at about 650 fps
Looks like they are close to what I got. Do you have any info on real velocities at different yardages?
Quote from: jfair on April 20, 2011, 09:56:24 PM
Quote from: LaBiologist on April 20, 2011, 07:03:25 PM
I am attaching my chart of shot KE in ft/lbs. It shows all the various shot types in the common sizes shot on this page. It shows the KE at various velocities. I posted it before the crash, so I will post it again here. Take note of 2 interisting things:
If it is really true that it takes 1.5 ft.lbs of KE to "kill" a turkey, then:
TSS #9 carries that at 700 fps
HS #7 (12 g/cc) carries that at about 650 fps
Looks like they are close to what I got. Do you have any info on real velocities at different yardages?
Someone would need to make a steel plate cover for the front of their chrono to check downrange velocity. Until then there is a computer program that is available, but it shows HS #7 losing steam areound 30 yds and we all know it holds out to 60 atleast.
Quote from: LaBiologist on April 20, 2011, 10:00:48 PM
Quote from: jfair on April 20, 2011, 09:56:24 PM
Quote from: LaBiologist on April 20, 2011, 07:03:25 PM
I am attaching my chart of shot KE in ft/lbs. It shows all the various shot types in the common sizes shot on this page. It shows the KE at various velocities. I posted it before the crash, so I will post it again here. Take note of 2 interisting things:
If it is really true that it takes 1.5 ft.lbs of KE to "kill" a turkey, then:
TSS #9 carries that at 700 fps
HS #7 (12 g/cc) carries that at about 650 fps
Looks like they are close to what I got. Do you have any info on real velocities at different yardages?
Someone would need to make a steel plate cover for the front of their chrono to check downrange velocity. Until then there is a computer program that is available, but it shows HS #7 losing steam areound 30 yds and we all know it holds out to 60 atleast.
Why do we all know this? This is kinda my point. Allot of people are under the assumption that it is true because everyone is saying so. I'm sure it starts losing steam the instant it leaves the barrel. So does lead. I would say a computer generated model would come real close if done by a physics dude smarter than I. Do you have a link?
I dont have the program. There is someone else on here that does. But the results the computer gives are hypothetical, and there have been plenty of actual hands on testing that disproves the computer results.
and when it comes to losing steam, what slows down faster, a golf ball or a ping pong ball. The more dense an object, the slower it decelerates.
Quote from: LaBiologist on April 20, 2011, 10:19:25 PM
I dont have the program. There is someone else on here that does. But the results the computer gives are hypothetical, and there have been plenty of actual hands on testing that disproves the computer results.
and when it comes to losing steam, what slows down faster, a golf ball or a ping pong ball. The more dense an object, the slower it decelerates.
Agreed with the comparison. But the weight difference between a golf ball and a ping pong ball is a much larger ratio than that of hevi and lead. Again, I understand there is a difference between the two, I just don't think, energy wise, it is as big as it is being made out to be. I would like to see real calculations. I have put lead sixes through a turkey breast at 30 to 35 yards also. Honestly the only bird I have ever shot more than once, was with Remington heavy loads. I swore I would never shoot them again until my brother showed me patterns from some 7's this year. This is where they shine. Patterning. Just don't get too hyped up about the energy.
Ok i admit the comparrison is just an exageration. But I have done patterning and physics equations on the HTL shot since they came out. ANd sooooo many others on here hve done penetration tests on everything from wet phone books to heavy gauge metal sheeting. the HTL shot always out performs the lead, even the larger shot sizes.
Quote from: LaBiologist on April 20, 2011, 10:42:02 PM
Ok i admit the comparrison is just an exageration. But I have done patterning and physics equations on the HTL shot since they came out. ANd sooooo many others on here hve done penetration tests on everything from wet phone books to heavy gauge metal sheeting. the HTL shot always out performs the lead, even the larger shot sizes.
OK. You just gave me a whole bunch of summer projects. Sounds expensive. Make no mistakes, I will be shooting the hevi's when we open up in another week in PA. Gook luck to you, and thanks for the discussion.
Just got a copy of the 2011 Turkey and turkey hunting equipment guide. Article called "Feeding Gobbler Guns" pg 48. The author started both hevi an lead out at 1300 fps. May give a good round about number for how speed falls off at yardage. I don't know what the units of penetration are, he does not mention it.
No. 4 Pellet Performance
Shot type Yards Velocity (fps) Energy (ft. lbs.) Penetration
Hevi-Shot 20 1,023 8.13 3.63
40 799 4.95 2.64
60 647 3.25 1.95
Lead 20 1,001 7.16 3.26
40 770 4.25 2.33
60 616 2.72 1.70
The author also says that Federal's Heavyweight is 15 g/cc. Is this true?
The author also says that Federal's Heavyweight is 15 g/cc. Is this true?
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Those numbers are right in line with what the KPY Ballistic Program predicts, and yes, Fed HW is 14.5-15 gm/cc, which gives it a huge energy and penetration advantage over lead or HS.
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Yes, big difference. Surprised more are not shooting this.
more people are not shooting Fed HW because of the Flight Control Wad. That thing is very picky. Besides, when HS can give the numbers it does and the penetration out past where you pattern falls apart, why shoot the FC wad.
Quote from: LaBiologist on April 24, 2011, 10:19:28 AM
more people are not shooting Fed HW because of the Flight Control Wad. That thing is very picky. Besides, when HS can give the numbers it does and the penetration out past where you pattern falls apart, why shoot the FC wad.
Agreed! If they made it available WITHOUT the flight control wad and bumped up the payloads to 2oz for 3"s and/or 2 1/4oz for 3 1/2"s, I'd probably use them.
Quote from: stinkpickle on April 24, 2011, 10:24:07 AM
Quote from: LaBiologist on April 24, 2011, 10:19:28 AM
more people are not shooting Fed HW because of the Flight Control Wad. That thing is very picky. Besides, when HS can give the numbers it does and the penetration out past where you pattern falls apart, why shoot the FC wad.
Agreed! If they made it available WITHOUT the flight control wad and bumped up the payloads to 2oz for 3"s and/or 2 1/4oz for 3 1/2"s, I'd probably use them.
I liked the flight control wads for lead. Maybe not so good for heavyshot? I see the heavy Federals are 1300 fps. Do they cut down on the pellet load to be able to put more powder in? Is it a capacity restraint? Could they make a 3.5" with 2.25 ounces of load that still shoots 1300 fps.? If so, then it has to be a cost thing.
If federal lost the FC wad and bumped up the payload to 2.25oz environmetal would probably go out of business.
That's the reason I shoot Fed. Hvywt. 7s. My Benelli with a .640 choke good to 55-60yds. The patterns are not as impressive at 40yd, but hold together at longer yardages very well. Plus hi velocity. I have contemplated putting 2 shells payload together and up it to 2 1/4 oz. In one and see what results I could attain. But they are $$$.
Cant you still buy the 15 g/cc shot online? Why buy federal when you can get the same thing online for reloading?
Quote from: K9-Doc on April 24, 2011, 02:17:32 PM
That's the reason I shoot Fed. Hvywt. 7s. My Benelli with a .640 choke good to 55-60yds. The patterns are not as impressive at 40yd, but hold together at longer yardages very well. Plus hi velocity. I have contemplated putting 2 shells payload together and up it to 2 1/4 oz. In one and see what results I could attain. But they are $$$.
The patterns are not impressive at 40 but its good to 55-60??
Quote from: Gobble! on April 24, 2011, 09:06:00 PM
The patterns are not impressive at 40 but its good to 55-60??
I think what he means is either
A: It aint got the 300 in the 10 at 40, but still has the 100 in the 10 out to 55.
or
B: It carries more energy out to 55
Correct L.A. Biologist. 170s in 10 in. @40yd won't blow up ur skirt, but it is still over 100 pellets in 10" at 55 yds. Plus higher velocity plus heavier equals harder hitting. :z-guntootsmiley:
The more dense the shot, the better the BC. Better BC will keep the string together over a longer distance. It does not take super high numbers to still have killing patterns at longer ranges with very dense shot. IE: If you break or near 200 at 40 with HWs, you will probably meet or beat 280-300ish HS patterns at long range.
Quote from: K9-Doc on April 24, 2011, 10:57:42 PM
Correct L.A. Biologist. 170s in 10 in. @40yd won't blow up ur skirt, but it is still over 100 pellets in 10" at 55 yds. Plus higher velocity plus heavier equals harder hitting. :z-guntootsmiley:
Gotcha. Great patterns there for sure