I am planning a trip to FL to try for an Osceola and I have been looking at the map from the NWTF on the line for easterns/Osceola or what they consider the line. I will be hunting about 75 miles below the line which I would think is Osceola country but I'm sure some easterns also. I am trying for a grand slam. My question is if you shoot an eastern in the counties below the line does the NWTF consider it an Osceola in your grand slam??? Thanks
The better question is if you know it is an eastern would you consider it an Osceola to complete your slam? I know I would not knowing it is an eastern and not an Osceola.
If I knew it was an eastern absolutely not. But I have been studying the Osceola on the net for about a month now because I have never hunted anything but easterns. I have seen pictures of wings of so called Osceola that look like easterns and wings of easterns that look like osceolas so I know there is an gray area.
Its the only species with a line and no hybrids on the map. Those if us who live here know that the line is just that, a man-made line that no one told the turkeys about!
There are hybrids on both sides of the line, and true Osceolas above the line on both coasts. In the central part of the state south of the line there are birds you would swear are all full eastern.
If you have to have a "true" Osceola, I'd be south of Orlando...
Well here we go............
I have some ideas that may raise a few eyebrows, but I would say you would be very safe calling it an Osceola for the purpose of a Grand Slam if it was below that line. I have had some interest in this topic for a while and have spoken with more than one biologist about it. I even had one tell me that there was no DNA difference between an Osceola and an Eastern.
I know there are certain characteristics that are attributed to the Osceola---Lower weight, more black barring on the wings, darker color, less vocal, etc. Those characteristics alone would describe to a T the birds I grew up hunting in Southeastern, Louisiana. It is my belief that those birds which inhabit the swampy regions along the gulf coast could technically meet the qualifications to be called Osceola. Now, I am sure Florida and the money brought in from the monopoly they have on the term Osceola would offer some resistance to that theory.
I can say that I have hunted Easterns in a good many states and more years than I would like to think have passed. I would also say that even the birds(Easterns) I have hunted and killed in North Louisiana is a totally different bird from the ones I grew up with in Southeastern Louisiana. I do believe it is probably more likely that the truest strains of Osceola would be confined to the South of that line, but it would take a lot of convincing for me to not believe that if you drew a line from the northern tip of Florida all the way west to the Mississippi River, that those birds would at least be a hybrid of what is called an Osceola and Eastern.
Just my two cents.
I have hunted Florida all my life and have killed many turkeys both easterns and osceolas and the only difference I see is the length of the spurs. I have found that the spurs are much longer on the osceolas. Other than that , I can't tell them apart.
Thanks for all the replies. I guess if I'm lucky enough to kill a bird on public land in FL on ground I have never seen I will be super happy either way. Good luck to all this year.
:anim_25: The only way to get the Grand Slam is to consult the NWTF map. I have never hunted in Florida but do plan to, I will hunt well south of the "line" to complete my slam.
I have opinions I shall not state.
If its below the line and your happy with it, that's all that matters.
Quote from: Gooserbat on March 09, 2015, 05:20:28 PM
I have opinions I shall not state.
If its below the line and your happy with it, that's all that matters.
:agreed:
Quote from: VA_Birdhunter on March 09, 2015, 05:40:45 PM
Quote from: Gooserbat on March 09, 2015, 05:20:28 PM
I have opinions I shall not state.
If its below the line and your happy with it, that's all that matters.
:agreed:
Share your opinion. Your not going to hurt my feelings
Growing up in Central Florida I'd want to be at least South of I-4, and preferably South of Hwy 70. But the N"WTF" draws the line.
In terms of the record books, "the line" as designated by the NWTF is "the Gospel". Shoot a bird 100 yards north of that line and he is not considered an Osceola and shoot one 100 yards south of the line in the same general spot, and technically, he is considered to be one. Never mind that they might have been hatched from the same brood.
As has been stated, the separation of the Eastern and Osceola as subspecies was done before the advent of DNA testing, and was based on visual/appearance/taxonomic differences thought to be distinctive and significant at the time by those that do such things. If you believe that DNA testing on turkeys and such is accurate (which some suggest might not be the case, from things I have heard recently), Eastern wild turkeys and Osceola wild turkeys are genetically so similar that they probably should not be considered as separate subspecies.
Be that as it may, we turkey hunters have come to accept them as a bird worthy of special note. That is okay with me. It gives me an excuse to ponder going to Florida to hunt on occasion.
I question the motives of the genius who first coined the phrase, Grand Slam. I really question the motives of the genius who first coined the phrase, World Slam. Everyone knows you have not truly completed a World Slam until you have taken a feral turkey with big feet from New Zealand.
I would want to hunt south of Highway 70 to be 100% sure.
First of all let me say good luck! Hunting Florida is an awesome experience. I have been fortunate enough to hunt there four different times and have harvested seven gobblers. I hunted just South, approximately 70-80 miles, below "the line". Don't have any idea whether they were true Osceolas or not, but each time I connected I thanked the good lord for the opportunity. My name might not be in any book, but as far as I'm concerned I accomplished my goal of a grand slam by finishing with an Eastern in Missouri.
I'd love to kill the slam...but I've never seen a $1500 turkey!
1)Rios and Merrimams you can tell them apart.
2) Easterns that don't border a Rio "line" you can tell apart. Then you get into them eastern/rio mix and then it's the same as a eastern/Osceola.
I'd say go to the southern most tip of Florida and start calling as you walk north. Once you hear one plot that on your GPS, call the NWTF collect, give them all the info, get a certified letter,and then go shoot that turkey. Then you'll have the "slam"
Quote from: Treerooster on March 09, 2015, 11:31:33 PM
. But hey...if it blows your skirt up...go for it. :you_rock:
I absolutely refuse to hunt turkeys in my skirt! :TooFunny:
Have you killed your Arizona/New Mexico Goulds turkey yet? Lol
Quote from: turkey buster on March 09, 2015, 11:52:00 PM
Have you killed your Arizona/New Mexico Goulds turkey yet? Lol
:TooFunny: I started holding my breath a few years ago, thinking that my time was right around the corner. ...I am starting to turn a little blue.
I grew up hunting in the central part of the state around the Green Swamp area. All the birds I ever killed around those swamps I would definetly consider all Osceola. I also hunted quite a bit up around Dixie and Taylor Co. Those birds were a little bigger and showed characteristics of both Eastern and Osceola, Hybrids. I now live in Tennessee and these Easterns are definetly different than either strain of those birds.
Quote from: bradbathome on March 09, 2015, 02:53:19 PM
I am planning a trip to FL to try for an Osceola and I have been looking at the map from the NWTF on the line for easterns/Osceola or what they consider the line. I will be hunting about 75 miles below the line which I would think is Osceola country but I'm sure some easterns also. I am trying for a grand slam. My question is if you shoot an eastern in the counties below the line does the NWTF consider it an Osceola in your grand slam??? Thanks
If you are south of the line, and the bird looks like an eastern, I'm sure, at some point, there was an Osceola in the wood pile.
There is a huge gray area. I've always heard that south of HWY 50 was pure Osceola. All but 3 that I've killed were south of 50 and all had very little white in the wings. The 3 I've killed north of 50, looked exactly the same. May have something to do with the fact that they were only about 400 yards nort of 50, and probably have crossed it at some time or another.
In reality, what does it matter. I guess they have to have a line somewhere. If you kill it south of that line, call it an Osceola and be done with it.
I am a little biased being at the bottom of the state but i have seen a bird that was shot up near panhandle that the wings black as midnight. Here is saturday's bird from about the bottom of their range.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10842723/FullSizeRender1.jpg)
I live right on the line. Hunt in a couple of county's north and a couple south. All the birds look the same mostly a hybrid. Only in the south part of Bradford county have I seen what appears to be a "true" Osceola.
I think the old line was hwy 50 that runs from coast to coast east and west. Although I'm sure Osceolas are on the North side also. I wouldn't personally hunt too far North of 50 if I was looking for a pure blood Osceola. This one was in Greenswamp East WMA which is two WMA's South of hwy 50.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v71/Iflytrout/GOBBLERS/2004greenswampeastgobbler.jpg)
I was in a lease near the coast, a pretty far piece from the line. Several southern Florida turkey hunters have seen the fan from a bird I killed on that lease and asked when I got my Osceola. I am sure there is some Osceola in those birds blood, but they are not considered Osceolas. I already have killed 2 well south of the line, so it makes no difference to me, but had I not, I would not say I had an Osceola.
That hanging bird by Hoyt is very similar looking to several birds from that lease. They had a wee more white on the wing, but not much.
Really the main thing is that YOU consider it your grand slam. Dont let some sockload waste discourage you because they aren't interested in trying it. I couldn't begin to tell you what would 100% guarantee an osceola or eastern but I know its fun to hunt them in all of the different climates, environments and circumstances. Good luck.
I've seen gobblers come out of the same cypress head that had a wide variation of white in the primaries , some all black , some with thin white lines etc... And we are talking the most utterly southern realms well below lake O , but yes it's more common to see all black winged 13 pound gobblers with dagger spurs down here than what you see in the north part , but some of those gobblers will have traits up more north florida l but just not as near frequent
There are several unique species and sub species of animals exclusive to the southern peninsula of Florida, the key deer ..ever see a 60-45 pound 8 point buck ? Lol ! , scrub jay , manatees , florida panthers , Everglades fox squirrel etc... The list goes on , the strong hold for pure Osceolas is Orlando and south .probably the most qualified person to ever address the subject was the late Lovett Williams , mind you he was Dr. Of biology and from Florida and a darn good turkey hunter that had examined thousands of specimens , in his book the line is much more south and it indicates a hybrid range , some years ago the powers that be moved the line well north of that , what inclined them to do that I have no idea , but the end result is that much of the out of state hunting pressure and hunters dispersed to a wider range , perhaps a good thing for the sub species , looking at it in hindsight it might have been the best thing to ever happen to south Florida turkeys
Quote from: Hooksfan on March 09, 2015, 03:54:18 PM
Well here we go............
I have some ideas that may raise a few eyebrows, but I would say you would be very safe calling it an Osceola for the purpose of a Grand Slam if it was below that line. I have had some interest in this topic for a while and have spoken with more than one biologist about it. I even had one tell me that there was no DNA difference between an Osceola and an Eastern.
I know there are certain characteristics that are attributed to the Osceola---Lower weight, more black barring on the wings, darker color, less vocal, etc. Those characteristics alone would describe to a T the birds I grew up hunting in Southeastern, Louisiana. It is my belief that those birds which inhabit the swampy regions along the gulf coast could technically meet the qualifications to be called Osceola. Now, I am sure Florida and the money brought in from the monopoly they have on the term Osceola would offer some resistance to that theory.
I can say that I have hunted Easterns in a good many states and more years than I would like to think have passed. I would also say that even the birds(Easterns) I have hunted and killed in North Louisiana is a totally different bird from the ones I grew up with in Southeastern Louisiana. I do believe it is probably more likely that the truest strains of Osceola would be confined to the South of that line, but it would take a lot of convincing for me to not believe that if you drew a line from the northern tip of Florida all the way west to the Mississippi River, that those birds would at least be a hybrid of what is called an Osceola and Eastern.
Just my two cents.
:agreed: :icon_thumright: Thank you!!!
I started out hunting in central FLA, well south of the mythical cut off line. Most of my gobblers have been Osceolas. But, most of my "Osceolas" look exactly like Easterns. Some look like what is supposed to be an Osceola. I also have a hunting lease in S. Carolina. Up there I've also killed birds that look like straight up Easterns, but also have killed birds that look more like Osceolas than a lot of the "Osceolas" I've killed.
Frankly, I agree with you. I think the entire southeast is filled with a whole bunch of hybrid turkeys, but some of them show the genetic traits of Osceolas.
Here's a pic of the last Osceola I killed. Looks like an Eastern to me. This was in southern Lake County, well south of the mythical dividing line.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v476/RutnNStrutn/Hunting%20Pics/Resampled_2013-03-24_07-51-35_849_zpsfbc6a1cc.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/RutnNStrutn/media/Hunting%20Pics/Resampled_2013-03-24_07-51-35_849_zpsfbc6a1cc.jpg.html)
And here's a S. Carolina Eastern that looks more like an Osceola than that Osceola I killed.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v476/RutnNStrutn/Hunting%20Pics/480e4eff.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/RutnNStrutn/media/Hunting%20Pics/480e4eff.jpg.html)
And here's a S. Carolina Eastern that looks like an Eastern.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v476/RutnNStrutn/Hunting%20Pics/sc11c.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/RutnNStrutn/media/Hunting%20Pics/sc11c.jpg.html)
And finally, here's a couple of Osceolas from Christmas, Florida, but they look like Osceolas. The first one is the first of my two Florida Registry gobblers. He had an 11-1/2" beard, twin 1-1/2" spurs and weighed 19 lb's.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v476/RutnNStrutn/Hunting%20Pics/MrBig2-1.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/RutnNStrutn/media/Hunting%20Pics/MrBig2-1.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v476/RutnNStrutn/Hunting%20Pics/082ndturk.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/RutnNStrutn/media/Hunting%20Pics/082ndturk.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v476/RutnNStrutn/Hunting%20Pics/Osceolawing.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/RutnNStrutn/media/Hunting%20Pics/Osceolawing.jpg.html)
So y'all tell me. ???
I wish the NWTF would admit that the SE US is full of hybrids, and only the extreme southern part of FLA has true Osceolas. Then I might be able to afford to hunt in my own state for a change. ::)
I killed a Rio in San Angelo that looked more like an Eastern than anyone else's, on the trip, did. San Angelo is far from the eastern range. Mine had a little buff coloring but not like the others. I've killed birds with dark wings right here in GA. That line is just a MONEY line.
The only difference between a brown bear and a grizzly bear is a 50 mile demarcation line. An Alaskan guide once wrote about seeing a grizzly bear turn into a brown bear and then back to a grizzly, several times. Simply because he was foraging back and forth across the line!
(http://i1060.photobucket.com/albums/t456/oldgobbler3/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_2015-03-11-09-45-37.png) (http://s1060.photobucket.com/user/oldgobbler3/media/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_2015-03-11-09-45-37.png.html)