For many years I have been under the belief that you determine a turkeys age by the length of their spurs. This is what I have been told for a long time and saw no fault in the logic. Well over the past few years situations have occurred that have made me start doubting this aging system. We all believe, as do I, that spur determines a trophy gobbler, but is that status of trophy rarer than we give it credit?
I have personally come to the opinion that their is more to long spurs than just age, but that age is one factor in turkeys with longer spurs. I believe that age, genetics, nutrition, and environment all play part in the length of a gobblers spurs.
One example that helped change my opinion of this issue was the bird that WNY Bowhunter killed a few seasons ago. It was a banded gobbler that was released three years before he killed it as a mature bird. After receiving all his information from those that banded the bird it is believed that the bird was at least 8 yrs old, pretty amazing to me with the harsh winters of New York. Under my belief that age determines spur length I would have thought the bird would have at least 1.5" spurs, but the one the one that was still intact was just 1.25", the other was broken off from fighting and all. (http://oldgobbler.com/Forum/index.php/topic,25642.msg275208.html#msg275208)
The other example I will use is a friend of mine killed a bird in an area where he had been hunting a bird for 2 prior years. This bird had a certain routine and acted the same each time he hunted him. When he finally killed the bird in this area and the bird had only 13/16" Ivory spurs. By spur length that is a two year old bird but if you look at the picture the bird does not look like a two your old, or at least not to me in my humble opinion. This "2" year old acted the exact way as the previous bird that had not been killed to the hunters knowledge. I think it was the same bird and just did not have the genetics or nutrition to produce longer spurs even though he was older.
"Two" year old in my example:
(http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af161/davisd9/Philips%20dam%20bird_zpshmpsxpkn.jpg)
I see it just like I do deer, some are just incline through nature and environment to have longer spurs or bigger antlers. That makes those that do have those long spurs we crave a rarer trophy than we give them credit for.
I think that as far as aging a turkey the best we can do is say it is a Jake, a two year old by the amber of the beard, or a three year old or better because of no amber in the beard. Maybe I am wrong, but through experience this is what I currently believe. I would love to hear what the "turkey experts" have to say on the subject, their belief and why. Please give me more than that is what I was always told.
Quote from: davisd9 on March 04, 2015, 01:39:12 PM
One example that helped change my opinion of this issue was the bird that WNY Bowhunter killed a few seasons ago. It was a banded gobbler that was released three years before he killed it as a mature bird. After receiving all his information from those that banded the bird it is believed that the bird was at least 8 yrs old, pretty amazing to me with the harsh winters of New York. Under my belief that age determines spur length I would have thought the bird would have at least 1.5" spurs, but the one the one that was still intact was just 1.25", the other was broken off from fighting and all. (http://oldgobbler.com/Forum/index.php/topic,25642.msg275208.html#msg275208)
Just to clarify a bit...my gobbler was banded as an adult with 1 3/16" spurs in Feb. 2007 and I killed him 5 years later in May 2012.
(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b284/WNYBowhunter/Turkey%20Hunting/IMG_1489.jpg) (http://s21.photobucket.com/user/WNYBowhunter/media/Turkey%20Hunting/IMG_1489.jpg.html)
I have had my hands on many dozens of dead NY gobblers over the years and I have only ever seen one in person with over an inch and a half spurs (one of my uncles killed it in 2010). I would venture to guess that this bird was 6 or 7 years old...
1.5" & 1 9/16:
(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b284/WNYBowhunter/Turkey%20Hunting/032dd.jpg) (http://s21.photobucket.com/user/WNYBowhunter/media/Turkey%20Hunting/032dd.jpg.html)
(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b284/WNYBowhunter/Turkey%20Hunting/027e.jpg) (http://s21.photobucket.com/user/WNYBowhunter/media/Turkey%20Hunting/027e.jpg.html)
Genetics. Fla and Ga kill way more large Spurs than all the other states. I have probably put my hands on 700-800 gobblers killed by my friends and acquaintances over the last 3 decades and only 3 have had 1.5" spurs.
I think genetics plays the main role in whether of not a particular bird will ever have long spurs, no matter what his age. I agree that the other factors you mention,...nutrition and environment,...may play a role to some degree, but if a gobbler does not have the genes for long spurs, he will never grow them, no matter how long he lives.
Like you, I have seen gobblers that I was certain were ancient birds that had 1" spurs. On my home turf, where I have looked over hundreds of spurs, I am fairly confident I can tell two-year-olds and three-year-olds pretty consistently, but after that, it is purely a function of genetics and "guesswork".
Also, a friend of mine's daughter killed a two year old in 2008 (banded as a jake in 2007) that had 1 1/8" spurs. I would typically presume spurs of this length to be a three year old.
ive killed my share in s ga and only held one true pair of 1.5" spurs. my wife killed him
(http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m314/fountain327/DSC01632.jpg) (http://s107.photobucket.com/user/fountain327/media/DSC01632.jpg.html)
ive heard of many more and hear of some yearly, but ive never killed any. 1 7/16 is the closest ive came
(http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m314/fountain327/DSC01820.jpg) (http://s107.photobucket.com/user/fountain327/media/DSC01820.jpg.html)
ive killed several in the 1.25 range and one 1 3/8....the 1.5"s just aren't that common I don't think..of the osceolas I killed haven't gotten one there yet either.
^crappy pics of those spurs on both birds...they look short. ive got better ones on my phone, but o well. wifes bird was true 1.5 and 1 7/16 and my bow bird was 1 7/16 and 1 3/8...both being mounted for sure!
I hunt in Washington and Idaho. My best bird had 1 3/8 inch spurs, it was an Eastern I killed in Idaho towards Dworshak Reservoir. I've killed a couple others (Merriams/Rios) with 1 1/4 inch spurs. I imagine genetics play a big part in spur length but also the type of terrain the birds live in can wear their spurs down.
I killed a bird here in WNY last season with 1.5" spurs. Probably about 4 years old.
I agree with the logic that 1.5 inch spurs are very rare and genetics and location do come into play. I disagree with the concept of GA or any other state having more 1.5 inch spur turkeys than any others. I hunt mostly in KS and MO and have shot 3 turkey that had 1.5 inch spurs and my friend has shot two. That is out of probably 150 birds I have personally seen get killed. 5 out of 150 is pretty good.I also think hunting pressure has a lot to do with it. We shot two birds in one year that were that that long. Both in a spot where hunting was not allowed for multiple years prior. They don't get long spurs if they get shot in year two so that makes sense to me. Lastly if there is rocky terrain they will get broken off more often or rubbed down.
I believe its about genetics.
I think spur length isn't a great method of aging a tom. I read the snood may be a more reliable indicator of age but I've never measured the snood on one I've killed. :z-twocents:
Very interesting topic. I was hunting in Kansas about 3 years ago and called in two gobblers (Easterns) from about 300 yds away...even from a distance I could see one was HUGE...he looked half again as big as his buddy.
After I shot the big one I rushed over anxiously thinking he had to have huge spurs...I was disappointed to find out both spurs were like 7/8" . I think he had to be at least a three year old bird and weighed well over 26 lbs by a UPS scale.
I think spur length is similar to any other trait that you would want to discuss. The individual has a genetic potential that will allow a certain trait to be expressed. The amount that this trait is expressed is determined by other factors. Nutrition, environment, disease, etc. will effect the degree to which the genetic potential is ultimately realized.
A bird I killed in 2013:
(http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af161/davisd9/4-1AfterHarvest_zps45b11a91.jpg)
(http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af161/davisd9/DSCN0034_zps5f61eec1.jpg)
(http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af161/davisd9/DSCN0035_zps7c64e60d.jpg)
(http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af161/davisd9/DSCN0033_zps9659169b.jpg)
(http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af161/davisd9/DSCN0032_zps7d437e47.jpg)
My thoughts:
Age Yes
Genetics Possible
Nutrition No
Environment No
If everything was fully understood we would have nothing to talk about.
Davisd9, That would qualify as a juvy in my record book. Early hatch boyd.
Quote from: RemingtonRules on March 04, 2015, 08:31:14 PM
My thoughts:
Age Yes
Genetics Possible
Nutrition No
Environment No
If everything was fully understood we would have nothing to talk about.
Davisd9, That would qualify as a juvy in my record book. Early hatch boyd.
I believed it to be a late hatched bird from a hen who lost a nest or was bred late, say 21-24 months old, but I can honestly see that argument for early and late hatched. I am honestly not sure, haha.
Sent from the Strut Zone
In MO i have seen plenty of long spurs shot. I have also shot birds in KS with 1.5" spurs. I would Have to guess part is in region you hunt and species. I dont call a spur long unless its 1.5" or longer. I have seen 2" spured bird get shot and my largest is 1.75" both were easterns. Last year I shot 2 birds that had 1.5" spurs they are pretty regular occurance around my area. Most hunters around me have at least shot birds with 1.5" or larger spurs. 1 1/8-1 3/8 spurs are regular in my opinion unless its just one of the dumb 2yr old birds with 7-9" beard those will be 3/4"or 7/8" spurs on average. maybe my area they are just less pressured and are able to grow old and long spurs either way i do believe genetics has a part to play in it.
I am hunting the foothills in Central California, and cut my teeth in the foothills in the Sacramento valley...
Our birds for the most part are considered Rio's, and I know of nobody that has killed spurs much longer than 1 inch... I have been told that the reason for this is that the country we hunt them in, is rocky, and the those spurs get chipped or knocked off before they can reach any length.
I killed a bird with just under a 12 inch beard, and the spurs were still less than 1 inch... My longest spurs have only been just at 1 inch, which is considered pretty good for our area.
I have always been a bit jealous of others who have access to such long-spurred birds... I have always wondered about Rio's and average spur length as compared to easterns as well...
We get some nice looking beards on our birds, but we certainly do not get those spurs...
Our group has 500+- worth of male turkeys to research...
We have 4-5 full fan toms with zero spurs, no trace of a spur, the spur scale not visible...
We gave 7-8 super jakes, full fan except for the outer end fan feather or two....
We have maybe 10 toms with at least one 1.5" spur...5-6 had both spurs at 1.5"....
40-45% are clearly Terrible Twos...candy corn spurs...
The rest are most likely 3-4 years old, pointed, about 1", not much curve...
And a couple of dozen 1.25" curved hooks birds that could be anywhere from 3-5+-.....
We think you can only be fairly sure of a few things, and sure is probably not the right word:
Any tom needs to have a full fan...
A sharp spur point in the 1" range means 3+...
Under an inch & rounded, probably a Terrible Two...
I know lots of guys get those 1.5", but I think it's pretty rare....
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I've shot 2 that were 1.5". First bird my brother ever shot was an 1 9/16" beast. After telling him that was the bird of a lifetime he killed another of equal size a few years later. These rio/eastern hybrids round here pack some Spurs.
I'm certain that genetics play a role in spur length, as they do in any features of any animal. Just like Guess Who's multiple multi-bearded gobblers. He has a few areas he hunts that he harvests a lot of multi-beards out of. That has to be genetics.
I am far from an expert. This is a great topic, and I wish Lovett was still around to put in his :z-twocents: worth. I do know two things for sure though.
Florida is known for long spurs, and most of my gobblers are Osceolas. I've killed many 2 & 3 year old Osceolas that had longer spurs than an Eastern, Rio or Merriams of the same age would have. I've killed a lot of Osceolas that have long sharp spurs, many of them limbhangers, when my Easterns, Rios and Merriams haven't had the quality of spurs to match that.
I've only killed 40 turkeys, but two of them had twin 1-1/2" spurs each. One was an Osceola, and the other was a Michigan Eastern.
So what do those two facts mean? Beats me!!! ;D :lol: But I think genetics play a factor, and I think Osceolas grow longer spurs. Who knows? I could be wrong.
I believe the region of the country has a big impact on the chances of killing a really long spurred turkey.
I have a string of spurs that have to be 1.25" or better to make the cut. I usually have to kill 10 or 11 to get one to add to the string. My longest was 1 15/16" and I killed it the first year I moved to Missouri. Two years ago, I called in one for my brother that was pretty much identical. Now we argue over who has killed the bigger bird.
:z-winnersmiley:
Quote from: Hooksfan on March 04, 2015, 10:48:25 PM
I believe the region of the country has a big impact on the chances of killing a really long spurred turkey.
I have a string of spurs that have to be 1.25" or better to make the cut. I usually have to kill 10 or 11 to get one to add to the string. My longest was 1 15/16" and I killed it the first year I moved to Missouri. Two years ago, I called in one for my brother that was pretty much identical. Now we argue over who has killed the bigger bird.
lets see a pic of those daggers!
I agree.. a combination of Genetics, Terrain, and nutrition.. just like a deer ..
I typically find that two year olds weigh more than a three plus year old gobbler because of less breeding activity.
The long spurs continue to elude me, I've killed a double beard that had 1-1/8th and I've killed two mega weight birds (for our area) that had chipped broken spurs. Think my largest spurs is still 1-3/16
I've called in better birds for others but when I pull the trigger they never seem to be limb hangers.
I can say thing, my first one that hits that 1.5 mark is going straight to the taxi
Killed one couple years ago in central N.C. had 1 5/8" & 1 9/16" with 11 1/2" beard and I know he walked same ground the year before...saw him year before at 10 yds on my wrong side and gave me the slip. Watched how big, tall he was for least 5 minutes and those spurs looked like 20 penny nails hanging off back....will never forget it. Like looking at a monster buck at a few yards and seems like they are so much bigger than real life. Next year about mid season when hens were going to nest about 11:00 one morning he was following behind and walked right into my set up and game over. Believe they have to be hunted less, get some age on them, and have good gene pool to get to be a true limbhanger. Just like bucks, they are out there but few and far between.
Quote from: Blong on March 04, 2015, 10:53:46 PM
:z-winnersmiley:Quote from: Hooksfan on March 04, 2015, 10:48:25 PM
I believe the region of the country has a big impact on the chances of killing a really long spurred turkey.
I have a string of spurs that have to be 1.25" or better to make the cut. I usually have to kill 10 or 11 to get one to add to the string. My longest was 1 15/16" and I killed it the first year I moved to Missouri. Two years ago, I called in one for my brother that was pretty much identical. Now we argue over who has killed the bigger bird.
lets see a pic of those daggers!
I tried and I couldn't do it through the site. Let me try to do it through photobucket, but I ain't real computer savvy.
Up here in upstate NY from my experience we probably have shorter spurred and shorter beards than the easterns down south. From what ive seen, 3+ year old turkeys in my area average between 1"-13/8" spurs. Now i have seen the occasional 1&1/2"-1&3/4" spurs around here but IMO,those are a rarity in these parts. Yea i think genetics play a part but i think the the environment the turkey lives in plays just as important of a roll on spur and beard length. Winter not only wears down there spurs and beards from the snow but im sure those spurs or beards arent growing as much in the winter as their cozy cousins down south. Me and a buddy hunted North Ga. about 5 years back and i got lucky and bagged a nice gobbler. It was my biggest spurred turkey,not by much though, @ just over 1&3/8" on both sides and to this day it is my still my longest bearded gobbler @ a true 10&1/4". That bird was probably less than average in body size ,19.5 lbs, by our standards up here in NY though. Every bird ive killed up here that had 1&1/4" or larger spurs were 21lbs+. Just my experience in my area.
Quote from: Tail Feathers on March 04, 2015, 04:21:08 PM
I think spur length isn't a great method of aging a tom. I read the snood may be a more reliable indicator of age but I've never measured the snood on one I've killed. :z-twocents:
I shot a Kentucky bird last year that was 25.5 lbs, 10" and a 10.5" beard (both thick) 1-3\8" and 1" spurs and also had a split snood that is pretty cool looking on the mount. The taxidermist said he has never seen anything like it. When I get back from Mexico I'll post a picture. He might be ancient.
(http://i1204.photobucket.com/albums/bb403/fullstrut2/1367235599081.jpg) (http://s1204.photobucket.com/user/fullstrut2/media/1367235599081.jpg.html)
Here's my brothers bird if the upload works....
Ive killed a few or more Osceola's with 1 3/8" spurs, And One with 1 1/2" & 1 5/8" spurs
James Dickson cites in his text studies that show spur length correlated to age. Lovett also states the same in "Wild Turkey Hunting and Management". He also uses the Gould's turkey as an example of genetics "selecting" against longer spurs. And he mentions soil characteristics having an effect on sour length due to the abrasion basically grinding the spurs down.
So right there you have Age, Genetics, and Environment. Because a spur is a bone, just like deer antlers, I think nutrition could play a hand in it as well. You need proper nutrition to enable growth. However, I think it only plays a small part in spur growth; otherwise, spurs would grow infinitely with the turkey.
Seeing as how you don't see any turkeys with 4" and 5" spurs, I think that's a pretty safe hypothesis.
But, I think Age, Genetics, Environment, and Nutrition play a role. Depends on the subspecies as to what order.