Got on winchester and seen that the longbeards are gonna be offered in two different weights now. Anyone got ahold of the 1 7/8 in 3 inch or the 2 1/8 in 3.5 inch. Velocity is slower which would be expected clockin at 1050fps
That's great! The 3" 1-3/4 oz is 1200 fps and the 1-7/8 oz is 1050. Now let's keep an eye out for the 20 ga. load.
That's gonna be VERY interesting!!!
Quote from: Spring Creek Calls on January 16, 2015, 10:19:35 AM
That's great! The 3" 1-3/4 oz is 1200 fps and the 1-7/8 oz is 1050. Now let's keep an eye out for the 20 ga. load.
I hope your right.
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Significantly slowing down a lead load for a nominal increase in payload doesn't make much sense to me. I chronographed the old Activ 3", 21/4 oz loads of 5's and 4's at @1025 -1050 fps and hunted with them until the advent of HTL shells. The Activ shells contained approx. 60 more 5's and 50 more 4's in a 21/4 oz load than the 17/8 oz LB, but the terminal velocity and KE of the Activ's dropped dramatically at @ 35-40 yards as measured by shooting into 1/4" marine grade plywood.
Quote from: decoykrvr on January 16, 2015, 04:22:11 PM
Significantly slowing down a lead load for a nominal increase in payload doesn't make much sense to me. I chronographed the old Activ 3", 21/4 oz loads of 5's and 4's at @1025 -1050 fps and hunted with them until the advent of HTL shells. The Activ shells contained approx. 60 more 5's and 50 more 4's in a 21/4 oz load than the 17/8 oz LB, but the terminal velocity and KE of the Activ's dropped dramatically at @ 35-40 yards as measured by shooting into 1/4" marine grade plywood.
^^^ This^^^
I really have to ask why? The Longbeard became the overnight standard by which lead is judged and it needed no improvement. From a lot of guns the pattern on a #6 load would hold up farther than the shot it's self was capable of killing a bird. They wasted a lot of resources when they should have developed a 20 ga #6 load.
Quote from: Gooserbat on January 16, 2015, 04:58:33 PM
I really have to ask why? The Longbeard became the overnight standard by which lead is judged and it needed no improvement. From a lot of guns the pattern on a #6 load would hold up farther than the shot it's self was capable of killing a bird. They wasted a lot of resources when they should have developed a 20 ga #6 load.
I agree! I just want to see them in 20ga. Even though I will probably shoot fed. heavy weights anyway. I would like the option to shoot good patterns with lead out of a 20. There 12 ga loads did plenty good the way they were.
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My guess is that they will probably discontinue the double x and high velocity series in the near future now with two speeds in the lb.
Woul 1/8 oz more shot be worth the 150 fps in a lead load?
Quote from: Gooserbat on January 16, 2015, 04:58:33 PM
I really have to ask why? The Longbeard became the overnight standard by which lead is judged and it needed no improvement. From a lot of guns the pattern on a #6 load would hold up farther than the shot it's self was capable of killing a bird. They wasted a lot of resources when they should have developed a 20 ga #6 load.
X2 my nova never threw a great pattren with anything under 1200 fps
Im glad I got the old longbeards and e/r shells. My Winnie 1300 likes 6 shot out of her. :OGturkeyhead:
Quote from: Tbrady835 on January 16, 2015, 09:04:47 PM
Woul 1/8 oz more shot be worth the 150 fps in a lead load?
Some will want anything to help #'s in the 10" circle at 40 lol.
Quote from: Twowithone on January 16, 2015, 09:39:41 PMIm glad I got the old longbeards and e/r shells.
:TooFunny: :TooFunny: :TooFunny: :TooFunny:
Not laughing at you specifically twowithone.....old longbeards.........
I can see it now, 1 year on the market and Winchester is already messing with the loadings.
Folks will head out to see if they can find last years stock, clammering from wal-mart to wal-mart, shaking the bushes, posting on forums...referring to them as the "old shells"....
And people grumbled about envirometal...changing loads...changing components...messing with perfection.....why, the nonsense ?
Remember "old whites" ??
Next thing you know, people will be chasing specific lot numbers...oh the horrors....
Sorry, I couldn't help it...it's like de-ja-vu all over again....
Quote from: Gooserbat on January 16, 2015, 04:58:33 PM
I really have to ask why? The Longbeard became the overnight standard by which lead is judged and it needed no improvement. From a lot of guns the pattern on a #6 load would hold up farther than the shot it's self was capable of killing a bird. They wasted a lot of resources when they should have developed a 20 ga #6 load.
Agreed , also wouldn't a slower load also reduce the effective killing range.
I guess you could go from 6 shot to 5 shot to balance it out.
I do like the faster loads and the denser shot :z-twocents:
http://www.winchester.com/Products/shotshell-ammunition/Innovative/Longbeard-XR/Pages/default.aspx
Winchester has not changed last year's load, it added an option of a larger payload in both 3" and 3.5". Check out the above link from their website.
That velocity is awful low for a lead shotshell. I wonder what length barrel they chrono'd it out of? I agree with the other posters that they should have made a 20 gauge instead of screwing around with a low velocity crippeler. How many "turkey Hunters" are going to read the 60 yard marketing hype and blaze away with 1000fps or less #6s at excessive ranges? Don't understand why they went that route instead of doing a 20 and even other gauges like the 10 would be cool!
Maybe they could also try 3 1/2" - 1 7/8 oz @ 1400fps
Prior to the introduction of HTL loads, I was reloading 3" turkey loads of 15/8oz of nickel plated 5's and 6's which was buffered w/ a motor micah and polybead mix and even utilized a mylar wrap within the shotcup. The load chronograhed at @ 1300-1350, produced good even patterns, kicked like a mule, and lived up to the adage, "Speed Kills". I was concerned about the excessive chamber pressures as indicated by both extraction problems and bulging primers and when the 3" green Remington HTL shells were introduced I discontinued reloading the shells. Before steel shot was mandated for waterfowl hunting, the advantages of lighter payload/higher velocity lead shotshells was proven in the field. Winchester is taking a monumental step backwards w/ higher payload/lower velocity turkey loads. It will be interesting to watch the "spin" which their Marketing Department will impart to these new loadings.
With the lower velocity, I would expect them to pattern slightly tighter than the ones at 1200 fps. That may or may not be a good thing,depending on how small of a pattern you desire. Both of them will kill exceptionally well. I agree that the "new" Longbeards are pretty unnecessary since the ones they already had performed so well.
As far as 20 gauge, they are not set up with the machinery and equipment for other gauges at this time from what I understand.
On the velocity thing, by the time you get out to say 40 yards or however far you shoot, the shot will have lost alot of velocity anyway so the difference between the shell that starts at 1050 vs. the one that starts at 1200 will be negligible. The faster you start it the faster it slows. Your pattern will still fail before your penetration anyway so I look at pattern density and stick with #6. Turkey head and necks are pretty fragile despite what some people want you to believe.
Would rather see them throw some 15 g/cc #7s in the shells.
So this velocity difference is negligible?
At 40 yards the 150 fps advantage ends up being what? With say 6 shot , down to a 65 fps advantage?
If so, what is that ? 5 yards ? 10 yards more downrange velocity?
I get a bit lost in this area.
Quote from: Ihuntoldschool on January 24, 2015, 08:32:23 AM
On the velocity thing, by the time you get out to say 40 yards or however far you shoot, the shot will have lost alot of velocity anyway so the difference between the shell that starts at 1050 vs. the one that starts at 1200 will be negligible. The faster you start it the faster it slows.
This may be the stupidest dang thing I've ever read in my life...
Quote from: owlhoot on January 24, 2015, 01:09:19 PM
So this velocity difference is negligible?
At 40 yards the 150 fps advantage ends up being what? With say 6 shot , down to a 65 fps advantage?
If so, what is that ? 5 yards ? 10 yards more downrange velocity?
I get a bit lost in this area.
Don't worry about getting lost , just don't get led astray lol
Owl, thats about right. By the time the shot reaches 40 yards 6 shot lost about half of the velocity it started out with so the difference in fps may be 65-75 at 40 and even less once you pass 40 yards. Simply physics the faster it starts the faster it loses its velocity. No gobbler will live to complain because your pellet hit him at say 600 fps instead of 665 fps just for the sake of argument. And if the heavier payload allows for more hits on target that will more than outweigh the slight decrease in velocity and I say slight because very few turkeys are shot 3 feet from the muzzle.
Most of the time slower velocity = tighter pattern. Shoot whichever patterns best for you, tighter may not necessarily be the best considering how tight the patterns are up close.
We all need to be respectful of everyone's opinion whether we agree or not. I do not think we need to resort to calling someones opinion stupid. It is true that the velocity difference being negligible at distances where turkeys are shot is my opinion. But it is a law of physics that when 2 equal size pellets are launched at the same velocity, the one that starts faster also slows faster so that as range increases the difference in velocity between the two pellets becomes smaller and smaller. It is also a fact that can be proven that #6 shot say will lose almost half of its velocity by the time it reaches 40 yards.
My point is with either shell anyone chooses they will both kill turkeys dead as long as you hit the vital area. Let us be a little more tolerant before we resort to calling one's opinion stupid just because it differs from ours.
launched at different velocities I mean, not the same
I'm as about dumb as a box of rocks when it comes to science and don't care, but doesn't the velocity of Hevi Shot advertise to be 1090? I can't find a soul on this site who says hevi 13 #7's wont stone cold one at 40 and some claim longer than that. So why won't a heavier shot like the LB #5 or 6 kill one at 40 shooting just as slow?
If my logic is wrong please correct me. I'm not overly biased as I've killed turkeys with both types of loads but I haven't seen a huge difference other than in price.
Maybe the retained at 40 yard velocity/ energy of the small diameter and denser shot?
They should all be dead at 40 given a good pattern.
Some just like them deader!