Albany DEC says preliminary numbers show that harvest numbers are down 25% for the 2014 spring season.
Im glad its been pretty dry so far this spring. Lets hope it holds up.
They'll still let the NY hunters pound away at the hens this fall and there will be more threads here next spring about guys not seeing or hearing turkeys.
Just because the harvest was down does not mean the birds are not there.
Yep, Don't forget all the young gobblers that get whacked in the fall as well.
Quote from: snapper1982 on June 11, 2014, 08:58:06 PM
Just because the harvest was down does not mean the birds are not there.
They actually predicted population down 20% going into the season. Its been declining for years now. DEC says they are trying to figure out why. I have been watching turkey hunter numbers dropping for years due to the lack of birds.
Well where i hunted it seemed that the birds was just getting started when season ended alot of the locals did not kill birds because they could not figure them out
Quote from: snapper1982 on June 11, 2014, 09:07:05 PM
Well where i hunted it seemed that the birds was just getting started when season ended alot of the locals did not kill birds because they could not figure them out
What does that have to do with actual numbers. Glad you have a good spot.
We had more birds, especially toms, on the farm we hunt this year than normal. We did notice that surrounding areas seemed to have less birds. I've been noticing a lot more coyotes around the last few years. I used to rarely see them and this year we had 2 come out. I don't know if predation is becoming a bigger problem than in the past between them and egg robbers. We had a pretty tough winter up here too with a lot of snow and some brutal temps for a couple weeks. I know not all of this is common in all of New York but it's just my observation.
Quote from: njdevilsb on June 11, 2014, 09:23:31 PM
We had more birds, especially toms, on the farm we hunt this year than normal. We did notice that surrounding areas seemed to have less birds. I've been noticing a lot more coyotes around the last few years. I used to rarely see them and this year we had 2 come out. I don't know if predation is becoming a bigger problem than in the past between them and egg robbers. We had a pretty tough winter up here too with a lot of snow and some brutal temps for a couple weeks. I know not all of this is common in all of New York but it's just my observation.
For the past few years I have seen dozens of coyotes during turkey season. Even out in the fields during the day but the last 2 yrs I have not seen any. So who knows the real culprit. I do know that a few back to back very wet springs will do it.
I think it was just a hard year to hunt NY for some reason. I worked hard for my birds, harder then usual it seemed. Our winter may have hurt bird numbers.
Talk to any local in rural NY and they will drive you around for miles pointing into empty fields echoing the same message: "That field used to always have a bunch of birds using it and I haven't seen any there for several years."
You used to go to the better areas in NY (Oswego, etc) and hear 10-15 birds on a good morning. Now, if you hear 4-5, that's a stellar AM.
The turkey hunting skill of the locals isn't germane to the conversation. What is valuable is their insight and most local farmers and hunters will tell you.... The birds ain't just there like they once were.
And btw, I'm pretty sure NY is down 30-40% from 5 years ago. Anyone disputing the the trouble the NY flock is in is in denial.
Quote from: VaTuRkStOmPeR on June 11, 2014, 10:01:57 PM
Talk to any local in rural NY and they will drive you around for miles pointing into empty fields echoing the same message: "That field used to always have a bunch of birds using it and I haven't seen any there for several years."
You used to go to the better areas in NY (Oswego, etc) and hear 10-15 birds on a good morning. Now, if you hear 4-5, that's a stellar AM.
The turkey hunting skill of the locals isn't germane to the conversation. What is valuable is their insight and most local farmers and hunters will tell you.... The birds ain't just there like they once were.
And btw, I'm pretty sure NY is down 30-40% from 5 years ago. Anyone disputing the the trouble the NY flock is in is in denial.
100% agree.
I don't think that a statewide decline in turkey numbers can be attributed to one single factor...
Sure, the fall season does take hens out of the population but fall turkey hunting in my area doesn't open until the 3rd week of October and coincides with bowseason starting to heat up and very few people fall turkey hunt because of this. Coyotes do kill some turkeys but they have been numerous in my area of the state for at least two decades now and certainly don't make a living preying on turkeys. IMHO neither has reduced the turkey pop across the state to the extent that were are seeing. No doubt there are way too many coons, skunks, oppossums, crows, hawks, etc that take their toll during the nesting season and cause lower recruitment rates. Another thing that wrecks havoc during the spring brood rearing season is that most farmers start mowing hay around the later part of May or early June when the majority of the nests are hatching out and many nests get destroyed as a result (not to mention all of the fawns that getting chopped up during this time). In my area we have the same amount of agriculture that we have now since I can remember...there has been lots of logging going on over the past several years that creates brood rearing habitat. We don't experience any winter kill here. I really don't know what has happened? Honestly, I don't think that it is something that is going to be fixed by the DEC...hopefully, the numbers will rebound over time.
Let's just hope that we have a decent hatch this year... :anim_25:.
Quote from: VaTuRkStOmPeR on June 11, 2014, 10:01:57 PM
Talk to any local in rural NY and they will drive you around for miles pointing into empty fields echoing the same message: "That field used to always have a bunch of birds using it and I haven't seen any there for several years."
You used to go to the better areas in NY (Oswego, etc) and hear 10-15 birds on a good morning. Now, if you hear 4-5, that's a stellar AM.
The turkey hunting skill of the locals isn't germane to the conversation. What is valuable is their insight and most local farmers and hunters will tell you.... The birds ain't just there like they once were.
And btw, I'm pretty sure NY is down 30-40% from 5 years ago. Anyone disputing the the trouble the NY flock is in is in denial.
I guess I haven't persionally seen a drop off in turkey numbers like this but...this spring the sightings in the fields were very sparse indeed. I have never had to worry about hearing 10-15 birds a morning in my stomping grounds anyhow. Hearing 3-4 birds per morning has always been a "good morning" for me...
The numbers of birds here locally has been at a decrease for years. IMHO, i think consecutive poor nesting years is the big problem. Predators are definitely a factor too though. There's more predators here than ever and i personally witnessed and filmed a nest robbing fisher with the audacity to walk by my setup with a turkey egg in its mouth. And don't forget the birds of prey. There's more hawks and eagles around here now than there ever has been and they have no problem picking off the young poults. I dont think fall hunting has much of an effect on the population here locally. I know of maybe 2 people that actually fall turkey hunt. Most hunters like myself are too busy bowhunting or waterfowling at that time of the year. But i would be all for a 1 bird fall limit. It definitely stinks that the population isn't what it used to be but all the REAL turkey hunters I know including myself filled their tags this year.
Quote from: snapper1982 on June 11, 2014, 08:58:06 PM
Just because the harvest was down does not mean the birds are not there.
I know what you are saying , NY had a bad season ,but a lot of the blame may be atributad to such a late spring.
Funny I talked to a buddy in Ny this morning and he has heard more gobbling since the season has closed then he did the entire last three weeks of the season.
I felt like I heard and saw a good number of birds. This was my first true season though. My view is probably further skewed by the countless hours I spend calling coyotes. Sometimes that is like beating your head against the wall lol. Especially since the rise in popularity of the sport for the past few years. My point is the lack of response you often encounter while calling coyote makes turkey calling feel like your get really good action if you see or hear a bird every few times out. Lol
Is there any official count on turkey from the DEC? If flocks have been reduced by as much as some estimate... My guess would be disease.
Y
Quote from: itzDirty on June 12, 2014, 10:37:49 PM
I felt like I heard and saw a good number of birds. This was my first true season though. My view is probably further skewed by the countless hours I spend calling coyotes. Sometimes that is like beating your head against the wall lol. Especially since the rise in popularity of the sport for the past few years. My point is the lack of response you often encounter while calling coyote makes turkey calling feel like your get really good action if you see or hear a bird every few times out. Lol
Is there any official count on turkey from the DEC? If flocks have been reduced by as much as some estimate... My guess would be disease.
Unlikely to be disease. A few wet springs and yoy can be down 30% just like that.
which the last 2 springs were from what I remember
NY has actually had bad nesting seasons for 7 of the last 8 years if I remember correctly. Trapping was way down of the same amount of period until fur prices just went up last year and I noticed a lot more people trapping, which is good, but consecutive trapping would be more productive. I had a hard times finding birds this year before the season but ended up being my best season ever! For the first time, I felt like I actually heard both peak gobbling periods during the season instead of just one and I am seeing more turkey in fields now then I did during the season!
I have a friend in the catskills that said their population was going downhill due to blackspot (I think) and its a disease normally found in chickens but has spread to the turkey population. Don't know how true that is and how it can be tested but I guess you never know...
Fall hunting I don't feel truly endangers the population much as I don't know that too many people do it as their is way to many other things to do that time of year. I have only ever shot at one during bow season while deer hunting, and I missed...lol
Hunted 7 days in NY (9H) this year. Heard birds gobble every day. Sometimes 1 bird, sometimes 3 or 4. With turkeys you never know what you're going to get that morning. Not every bird talks every day. Killed a 2 yr old opening day and a great bird at the end of the season. Coyotes were yapping right below where the Tom I was hunting had gobbled 93 times on roost the day before. Found fisher tracks this winter which is a new critter to the area. Many a coyote tracks seen thru deer season. Guys run dogs on them but there's still a lot of them. IMO it's been the recent wet springs and harsh/cold winters that hurt the # of birds. I"m hearing and seeing birds but not like 5-6 years ago where the woods would erupt . Been seeing strutters in freshly plowed fields that way lately.
Quote from: mikejd on June 13, 2014, 06:11:36 AM
YQuote from: itzDirty on June 12, 2014, 10:37:49 PM
I felt like I heard and saw a good number of birds. This was my first true season though. My view is probably further skewed by the countless hours I spend calling coyotes. Sometimes that is like beating your head against the wall lol. Especially since the rise in popularity of the sport for the past few years. My point is the lack of response you often encounter while calling coyote makes turkey calling feel like your get really good action if you see or hear a bird every few times out. Lol
Is there any official count on turkey from the DEC? If flocks have been reduced by as much as some estimate... My guess would be disease.
Unlikely to be disease. A few wet springs and yoy can be down 30% just like that.
I did not consider wet springs which seems logical. Alao the harsh polar vortex winter! lol. My logic, the hunting pressure and predation does not seem intense enough to cause a large depletion of flocks. Disease can wipe out numbers fast. Why unlikely to be disease? This is all hypothetical based on the theory numbers are actually low.
Don't confuse anecdotal evidence of hearing birds during spring at your particular property as evidence of the health of the turkey flock in your area/state. We've been going through years of decline here in AR and our fall season has been cancelled as spring shortened and pushed way late. Also have a no jakes rule.
An expanding turkey population exhibits a poult/hen index of 2.0 or greater for each years brood. What causes poor hatches is up for debate, but we've had numerous studies done here and predation is very influential. If I remember correctly we had 55 or so hens fitted with tracking devices and of those that nested only 2 hatched out poults. The vast majority were predated on the nest or the eggs were eaten.
Others point to weather as the main factor. Our strongest hatch in years was in 2012 and that was a very warm and dry spring here. Not by coincidence our harvest numbers increased this year by 25%. Our hunting conditions were very good so I'm curious to see what % of the harvest was 2-yr olds.
If you want to know more look up some of our brood surveys and harvest results. I think all the SE states come to AR every year to share ideas and try and find solutions to prevent the declines we are seeing.
Hearing birds is a very inconclusive way to assess the numbers but observation in both the fall and the spring offer empirical data.
Where I hunt, fall flocks could and did exceed 80-100 birds. Now, those same flocks dwindle below 50.
Weather and predation are factors that the DEC and we as hunters cannot directly affect. I make the fall hunting comment because they do have the ability to protect hens but choose not to.
I'd rather have 40 hens lay eggs and have a 70% loss of nests than have 30 hens lay nests and lose 70%. It's basic scales of economy.
Bottom line, the more hens you have, the faster your population can be established or in the case of NY, replenished.
this is not about gobbling this is about numbers.
Quote from: cuttinAR on June 13, 2014, 11:54:14 AM
Don't confuse anecdotal evidence of hearing birds during spring at your particular property as evidence of the health of the turkey flock in your area/state. We've been going through years of decline here in AR and our fall season has been cancelled as spring shortened and pushed way late. Also have a no jakes rule.
An expanding turkey population exhibits a poult/hen index of 2.0 or greater for each years brood. What causes poor hatches is up for debate, but we've had numerous studies done here and predation is very influential. If I remember correctly we had 55 or so hens fitted with tracking devices and of those that nested only 2 hatched out poults. The vast majority were predated on the nest or the eggs were eaten.
Others point to weather as the main factor. Our strongest hatch in years was in 2012 and that was a very warm and dry spring here. Not by coincidence our harvest numbers increased this year by 25%. Our hunting conditions were very good so I'm curious to see what % of the harvest was 2-yr olds.
If you want to know more look up some of our brood surveys and harvest results. I think all the SE states come to AR every year to share ideas and try and find solutions to prevent the declines we are seeing.
I think NY is trying to move in the right direction. Heres a good article.
Solving the Puzzle of Wild Turkey Management
turkey-management.jpgIt is a challenging, yet exciting time for wild turkey management in New York State. Turkey populations expanded rapidly through the 1990s due to restoration efforts; however, DEC biologists and New York hunters have observed a gradual decline in populations of this popular game bird since 2001, with a sharper decline from 2007 to the present. There are several reasons for this, including a natural contraction as turkey populations settled down to levels more in line with local environmental conditions. Other factors include density dependence, poor production, and changing habitats and predator communities. Currently, turkey populations are around 200,000 birds — the lowest level since the mid-1990s. DEC biologists are committed to understanding if and how turkey population dynamics have changed in relation to changing environmental and social circumstances.
The main "drivers" of turkey populations are weather, habitat, predation and, potentially, fall hunting mortality of hens. DEC has three ongoing research projects focused on gathering information about these factors to determine their relative importance, and to adapt turkey management to better fit current conditions. There is evidence that both the ecological system (e.g., habitat, predators) and social system (e.g., hunter opinions and behaviors) have changed over the past 20 years. For example, the impact of predation or fall hunting mortality in 1993, when populations were rapidly expanding, may be different from the impact of predation or fall hunting mortality in 2013. It is our objective to figure out if and how the system has changed, and to adjust our management accordingly.
Turkey Harvest Potential – DEC has partnered with the National Wild Turkey Federation, SUNY-ESF, and Michigan State University to investigate the wild turkey harvest potential within New York. Important factors that affect turkeys here include spring weather effects on reproductive success, winter weather effects on survival, and the effects of habitat on reproduction and survival. The goal of this study is to look at the relationship between these factors and how turkey populations change over time in different parts of the state to determine each region's potential to produce and sustain birds.
Turkey Hunter Survey — Turkey populations have changed over the past 20 years, but so have the demographics, outlook and expectations of New York's hunting community. We are partnering with Cornell University's Human Dimensions Research Unit (HDRU) to conduct a statewide survey of turkey hunters. This survey will help determine their motivations and opinions on turkey populations, hunting opportunities and issues of concern to them, such as all-day spring hunting and the timing and length of the fall season. Understanding what hunters desire from and for the resource is an important part of turkey management. The survey will focus on hunter activity and attitudes about hunting regulations. It also will ask hunters to rank or prioritize management options for fall hunting seasons, while considering the tradeoffs associated with those options (e.g., fall season length and spring population size).
turkey-management2.jpgHen Harvest Rates and Survival Rates – Hen survival is the major driving force behind turkey population changes. To better understand what is happening in New York, we will capture and band hens and equip some with satellite radios to determine seasonal and annual hen survival and mortality. This will provide insight into the role of predation on hens, as well as the possible impacts of hunting mortality during the fall. Banding will take place during the winter, from 2013 through 2016. After two years under our current fall season structure (fall 2013 and 2014), we will revise fall season zones based on the results of this study and on the results of the projects described above, to create a new "map" of fall seasons starting in fall 2015. We will continue to assess hen harvest and survival under the new fall season structure (fall 2015 and 2016) to ascertain the effects of our management action.
Our primary goal for turkey harvest management is to protect the long-term security of the wild turkey population while still providing opportunities for hunters and others to enjoy the wild turkey resource now and in the future. The current suite of projects will enable us to achieve this important goal.
Great article and a promising sign. Thanks for posting!
From that it appears NY is taking a logical approach. Our fall season was just taken as kind of a knee jerk reaction to our decline. Remember though that we have been in decline since the early 2000s, but turkeys have been in parts of Arkansas for much longer than other states. We didn't have to repopulate certain areas of the state like the Ouachitas. The Ouachitas used to be a major turkey hunting destination in the 80s and now, well, lets just say its not.
One last soap box item...I cannot stand when the total statewide populations is estimated based of harvest. They take the harvest and assume it is 10% of the population. What a load of malarkey. I could basically create turkeys out of thin air depending upon season length and time. Give AR hunting an later March opener and keep it open for a month and we'd go from the 120,000 turkeys we presently have to close to 250,000 turkeys. Just like that, we got more birds!
Quote from: VaTuRkStOmPeR on June 11, 2014, 10:01:57 PM
Talk to any local in rural NY and they will drive you around for miles pointing into empty fields echoing the same message: "That field used to always have a bunch of birds using it and I haven't seen any there for several years."
You used to go to the better areas in NY (Oswego, etc) and hear 10-15 birds on a good morning. Now, if you hear 4-5, that's a stellar AM.
The turkey hunting skill of the locals isn't germane to the conversation. What is valuable is their insight and most local farmers and hunters will tell you.... The birds ain't just there like they once were.
And btw, I'm pretty sure NY is down 30-40% from 5 years ago. Anyone disputing the the trouble the NY flock is in is in denial.
I live and hunt in the Oswego area. I was lucky enough to hunt a farm that held enough gobblers to make it interesting but I completely agree that numbers are easily 50% down from five or six years ago. I saw only small numbers of hens in the local fields, which is a big change. That is to say that in past springs it was not uncommon to see a dozen hens in a field, recently the hen flocks often consist of two or three. I have no idea about why the numbers have declined, but they certainly have in my area. I hope things turn around in the years to come. jperch
I live in Fulton jperch, we are neighbors
Jperch I am a it south of you in Fulton,while I do think the population s down from recent years I dont think its 50%.I had more luck in woods than I ever have this last year,so did the majority of the people I hunt with.Great to see another local!!
I hunt Putnam, Dutchess Fulton and Madison counties in NY. Where I hunt in putnam and dutchess I used to see large flocks of birds while deer hunting, almost to the point they were an annoyance lol. I can't remember the last time I even saw a bird in the fall in at least six or seven years. I don't even want to bother to turkey hunt Putnam and dutchess now, it's practically a waste of time.
It's sad, I used to hear birds all spring behind my house, and always got at least one there also every year and my friends too, but now I see nor hear anything. Fulton seems relatively stable and consistent from years past and Madison is still good, but I definitely think many things are going wrong in NY, (besides our governor) and populations have crashed. Predation, disease, loss of habitat, fall hunting and poaching are catching up to the turkey. I just hope DEC can at least make an impact on the things they can control, liked fall hunting and the taking of hens. I know myself that in the fall, I am usually bow hunting anyway, and most of my friends too, and that would be an easy first step.
hi from western ny about 60 mi.southeast from buffalo.i also have'nt seen the usual amount of flocks in fields,i have had a great year,i tagged out early,both birds.i had a 10 3/4 in. beard other one 9 in.
Oldturk, which part of NY ? 9H here, Eagle/Bliss area
I have lived in NY for all my life and hunted turkeys in NY since 1986. The turkey population is absolutely way down in the Allegany and Steuben county areas . The Reason for this i don't know. As for The fisher sighting they have been in the Alfred are since the mid 90's they were released by the DEC in the state land in Allegany County.
Ok guys where ya'll live ?
Allegany County, Almond
I am in Western New York in the Arcade/Java area of 9H. We are seeing a decline in numbers in this area as well. When the birds were increasing in numbers...so were the amount of new turkey hunters in this area. The numbers of birds are decreasing at a faster rate than hunters dropping out of the sport. I had a decent year with my son taking his first longbeard during the youth hunt and I tagged one towards the end of the season but I also had 3 days out of the 9 days I hunted...that I never heard a gobble. Five or ten years ago....I would of never guessed things were headed to where we are now.
I hunt in Rodman.
I hunt Worth just south of you for deer a few times a year
Well call me foolish, but I find the DEC's report a little promising. At least they aren't sitting around pretending that there isn't a problem. We have brought the numbers up in the past and can do it again.
Quote from: VaTuRkStOmPeR on June 11, 2014, 10:01:57 PM
Talk to any local in rural NY and they will drive you around for miles pointing into empty fields echoing the same message: "That field used to always have a bunch of birds using it and I haven't seen any there for several years."
You used to go to the better areas in NY (Oswego, etc) and hear 10-15 birds on a good morning. Now, if you hear 4-5, that's a stellar AM.
The turkey hunting skill of the locals isn't germane to the conversation. What is valuable is their insight and most local farmers and hunters will tell you.... The birds ain't just there like they once were.
And btw, I'm pretty sure NY is down 30-40% from 5 years ago. Anyone disputing the the trouble the NY flock is in is in denial.
Welcome to what WV went through in the early 2000s .. back in the 90s it was nothing to hear 10 to 15 a morning.. now if you hear 2 or 3 you are doing good.. I think it is an entire East Coast problem and eventually all the states will see similar.. the NWTF did a great job of bringing birds back but the population is not maintaining what it was at it's peak in the 90s .. I'm not sure where the blame lies though. Right now the Midwest seems to have escaped this issue for some reason though.. TN, KY, MO, IA etc all have great gobbling and population so either they are doing something right management wise or there is some other culprit at work on the east coast, because they have just an many predators as we do.
Quote from: wvboy on June 17, 2014, 09:48:28 AM
Quote from: VaTuRkStOmPeR on June 11, 2014, 10:01:57 PM
Talk to any local in rural NY and they will drive you around for miles pointing into empty fields echoing the same message: "That field used to always have a bunch of birds using it and I haven't seen any there for several years."
You used to go to the better areas in NY (Oswego, etc) and hear 10-15 birds on a good morning. Now, if you hear 4-5, that's a stellar AM.
The turkey hunting skill of the locals isn't germane to the conversation. What is valuable is their insight and most local farmers and hunters will tell you.... The birds ain't just there like they once were.
And btw, I'm pretty sure NY is down 30-40% from 5 years ago. Anyone disputing the the trouble the NY flock is in is in denial.
Welcome to what WV went through in the early 2000s .. back in the 90s it was nothing to hear 10 to 15 a morning.. now if you hear 2 or 3 you are doing good.. I think it is an entire East Coast problem and eventually all the states will see similar.. the NWTF did a great job of bringing birds back but the population is not maintaining what it was at it's peak in the 90s .. I'm not sure where the blame lies though. Right now the Midwest seems to have escaped this issue for some reason though.. TN, KY, MO, IA etc all have great gobbling and population so either they are doing something right management wise or there is some other culprit at work on the east coast, because they have just an many predators as we do.
If what your saying is true. Then what it sounds like to.me is that the WTF
replenished the states with more birds then the environment could sustain.
weather it be nesting, habitat or available food sources. And this took a few years to regulate to a self sustaining flock.
So in reality our numbers may appear low but this maybe all that we can sustain in order ro have a healthy population
Remember years ago there was not to many birds around. This was not due to the fact that they could not rebuild but in reality it was all that the environment could handle.
That sounds very logical to me.. the population was booming the 80s and 90s after all the trap and transfer work in the 70s .. but started declining in the 2000s and has been on a steady decline since.. some of that may be attributed to forest management practice and predation (Deer herds have declined too for this reason I have no doubt), but more likely the level to sustain a turkey population has leveled out like you say.
I don't see a serious enough decline to cause warming in Greene County; that said because I don't see it doesn't mean there's not reason for concern in other counties. I think the population goes through cycles especially for game animals that depend on weather conditions for survival like having a warm dry spring for poults. Did I see the highest numbers I can ever remember, maybe not but there could have been years with inflated numbers after exceptional hatches.
Some food for thought is that with deer and turkey I always hear immediately following almost every season several people that had difficult years talk about how it was the worst year EVER. Good memories last far longer than bad ones, and for that we remember the days of booming gobbles, tags filled and strutting birds in every field but it's hard to go back and remember exactly how many days those same years were spent in the field without hearing or seeing a thing. This past season is fresh in the mind so we remember those head scratching mornings filled with silence or driving past those empty fields wonder where all the turkeys went.
I can't definitively say whether populations were down this year, I can say that hunting was different and birds did not act "normal". I know that farms where you could drive by every day of a normal year and see several birds out strutting in various fields this year I did see a single bird out in these fields and yet we found multiple mature birds hanging deeper in the timber than we ever had to hunt them before. If we had driven around glass or sat our normal field edge roost spots we probably would have had a season devoid of turkey activity until about the 3rd week which is when I was told that birds started showing up in normal fields. What I did find is that the birds were the most susceptible to calls I could ever remember once they were located. We hardly killed any birds in "normal" spots but we killed a pile of them none the less. I watched 5 birds die in 5 days with all but one being part of a group of mature birds back in timber. I probably had 11 different birds in range over those 5 days. My buddy called in 16 birds for people and didn't kill a bird out in a field until the 3rd week of season. Encountered several days with no roost gobbling where birds broke lose mid-morning after many hunters had left the woods grumbling about a lack of turkeys.
Kentucky has a 3 week season to protect nesting hens and minimize harvest.
Their numbers are down, just as Tennessee's are, as well, just not to the degree that the population in the NE is.
To me, protecting the hens is a simple, logical and immediate action that can be taken to help the birds. We don't need ridiculous studies and political discussions to validate what is obviously a biologically sound change.
As far as hearing turkeys goes.... You can't judge a population based on what you hear but can using what you physically SEE. The birds in NY aren't there like they were and that's the bottom line.
Never thought too much about until lately... If somebody could tell the hens to find a nesting spot in the timber they would be a little better off.... Every day since the end of May there have been a few hens hanging around a grassy field on the way to work.... I bet my last dollar there was at least one nest in that field... It was plowed last Friday and haven't seen a thing out there..... The wife's grandfather cut his hay field Saterday and kicked a hen off a nest.... Luckily he seen it and left the edge where the nest was uncut for now
Quote from: 2much2loud on June 18, 2014, 05:07:14 PM
Never thought too much about until lately... If somebody could tell the hens to find a nesting spot in the timber they would be a little better off.... Every day since the end of May there have been a few hens hanging around a grassy field on the way to work.... I bet my last dollar there was at least one nest in that field... It was plowed last Friday and haven't seen a thing out there..... The wife's grandfather cut his hay field Saterday and kicked a hen off a nest.... Luckily he seen it and left the edge where the nest was uncut for now
I agree, Hens are not great nest hiders.
Quote from: mikejd on June 17, 2014, 10:00:42 AM
If what your saying is true. Then what it sounds like to.me is that the WTF
replenished the states with more birds then the environment could sustain.
weather it be nesting, habitat or available food sources. And this took a few years to regulate to a self sustaining flock.
Not exactly. The number of birds released in any given state would have been in the hundreds, or maybe low thousands at most, so there was no surplus caused by stocking. However, the birds were released into what amounted to virgin habitat with seemingly unlimited resources. This allowed the population to sky rocket. Now eventually you hit the ceiling with regards to carrying capacity, but such rapid growth has a sort of momentum too it where you are going to overshoot carrying capacity for a short time before things correct themselves.
That said, populations have continued to trend down even beyond what would be expected. In my area I think it's largely changes in agriculture. Lots of small dairy farms have gone out of business and when the demand for corn shot up for ethanol production people started planting it everywhere including reclaiming old fallow fields and switching lots of hay fields to corn.
Again the DEC only tells you what they want you to know and nothing else. Nobody in DEC want to talk about Predator Control. It's always the hunters that are the problem. DEC will say and do anything to cut or stop us from hunting. How many turkey do they think predators take during an time frame? Why is it we have a season on fox,coyote,raccoons etc? With a season that means their trying to raise them. Nobody in DEC want to or will address this issue.
There needs to be some very HARD questions asked of DEC on this subject matter. Have to remember that the DEC is only care takers for us the people. They don't OWN the refuges but they act as if they do.
Do I believe the turkey numbers are down? Yes I do because we've had some hard winters and wet Springs and we need to take action, but not all against the hunters.
Quote from: ctwny1 on June 22, 2014, 06:18:40 AM
Again the DEC only tells you what they want you to know and nothing else. Nobody in DEC want to talk about Predator Control. It's always the hunters that are the problem. DEC will say and do anything to cut or stop us from hunting. How many turkey do they think predators take during an time frame? Why is it we have a season on fox,coyote,raccoons etc? With a season that means their trying to raise them. Nobody in DEC want to or will address this issue
Can you explain this? I am not sure I agree at all.
Ctwny1, the first line of DEC's mission statement: "To conserve, improve and protect New York's natural resources and environment..."
Our mission is not to create a turkey and deer making factory as you seem to think it should be. Predators, whether you like it or not, are one of the above mentioned natural resources. They are a renewable resource and are managed as such.
DEC is a huge agency but many of the people directly responsible for managing game species within the state are hunters themselves. The head of the Bureau of Wildlife is as avid a turkey hunter as anyone on this forum. Declining hunter numbers are a major concern because Pittman-Robertson money is the major source of funding for fisheries and wildlife programs. Your conspiracy theory is pure fantasy.
Quote from: alloutdoors on June 22, 2014, 09:15:28 AM
Ctwny1, the first line of DEC's mission statement: "To conserve, improve and protect New York's natural resources and environment..."
Our mission is not to create a turkey and deer making factory as you seem to think it should be. Predators, whether you like it or not, are one of the above mentioned natural resources. They are a renewable resource and are managed as such.
DEC is a huge agency but many of the people directly responsible for managing game species within the state are hunters themselves. The head of the Bureau of Wildlife is as avid a turkey hunter as anyone on this forum. Declining hunter numbers are a major concern because Pittman-Robertson money is the major source of funding for fisheries and wildlife programs. Your conspiracy theory is pure fantasy.
Your deer management is a joke. Your turkey hunting is quickly becoming a reminiscing story of "what once was." You released the fisher.....
You speak of declining hunter numbers which means there is less pressure on the resource yet the turkey numbers are still decreasing at an alarming rate.....
Yea, you guys are quite the exemplary conservation agency ????
Wasn't aware we released fisher here in NYS. Buddy works waayyy up north in NY and fisher have been thick there forever. Just recently they have been working there way down this way. First fisher tracks found where I hunt this past winter. Pretty sure it wasn't released here.
Now mountain lions released....that's a different story :wave:
More fantasy, nobody released fisher. Hunter numbers are declining everywhere and we are far from the only state seeing declining turkey numbers so I'm not sure what point you are trying to make but you are failing at it. As pointed out in this thread, NY is taking an active approach to investigating that decline and looking for workable solutions. I guess we should just scrap that in favor of your armchair quarterbacking.
Habitat is key but most of that is in private hands. What's your grand solution there? Maybe you would like the state to seize all private property so it can be managed for game?
For what it's worth I'll agree that I don't like how we manage deer, but that program is still heavily influenced by "old school" hunters with a "brown it's down" mindset who want to blast the first spike horn they see on opening morning. Most polls show that a majority of NY hunters still agree with that philosophy too.
Quote from: turkeyfeathers on June 22, 2014, 11:37:30 AM
Wasn't aware we released fisher here in NYS. Buddy works waayyy up north in NY and fisher have been thick there forever. Just recently they have been working there way down this way. First fisher tracks found where I hunt this past winter. Pretty sure it wasn't released here.
Now mountain lions released....that's a different story :wave:
I have been hunting the adirondacks since im a boy and have always seen them.
Recently the turkey population has grown up that way. However I attribute this to warm winters over the past 15 yrs. I will know for sure once we get rolling this fall.
Aren't coyotes an invasive species in NY? I know pigs are and the state seems to want to eradicate them. I understand there are more than just coyote as predators, but I can only imagine a longer season, like all year coyote hunting, May help some.
Outdoors quote (Predators, whether you like it or not, are one of the above mentioned natural resources. They are a renewable resource and are managed as such.)
Boys, I promise this problem is not confined to the NE. I live in southern middle Tennessee and we are seeing the same declines. Back in the 90's to early 2000's this was a turkey hunters dream. Use to be able to go out and hear at least 10 birds at daylight. Now some of those same areas your lucky if you hear 1 or 2 birds. These are areas that I hunt regularly and have seen the steady decline over about a decade. The county next to me has hwy. 64 running right thru the middle of it. It is a large county and the turkeys south of that hwy. have all but disappeared. The TWRA has been holding meetings over there trying to get input from land owners and hunters. I have a couple of theories, though that's just what they are, who knows. I have a good friend who's uncle owns a farm in the south part of that county. He found a dead hen in a field one morning that was fresh and had no visible signs of what had killed it. Him being a turkey hunter himself and knowing about the meetings contacted the TWRA. They came and took the bird for testing, and said the results came back for "black leg". Black leg is a disease chickens get. Now around here after fertilizer prices really went up about a decade ago many farmers went to spreading chicken manure instead of fertilizer to cut cost. Just a coincidence, I don't know. The place I talked about hearing 10 birds a morning years ago use to be regularly coon hunted, they haven't been really hunted in the last 7-8 years now. There is probably less than half the coon hunters here as there were 10 to 15 years ago, and our coon population has exploded. I have also noticed a increase in the yote and skunk population in this same time frame. Also now have armadillos that we didn't use to have, saw my first one around here about 3 years ago. They have spread from the west and spread pretty dang quick. The last couple of years the hatch has been pretty good, this year the weather has been pretty rough, storms and quite a bit of wet weather. Last but certainly not least is our ridiculous fall season bag limits. Our state wide spring bag limit is 4 bearded turkeys. My county also has a 3 bird either sex fall limit, so I could legally take 7 birds. Some of the counties around me have a 6 bird fall limit, that's just crazy to me. At least the county to the west of me and two more counties to it's west have cancelled their fall seasons. I'm sure it's a combination of factors that is causing declines, I just hope we as a whole north and south can get a handle on the situation before its critical.
Quote from: CrustyRusty on June 24, 2014, 07:09:15 AM
Aren't coyotes an invasive species in NY? I know pigs are and the state seems to want to eradicate them. I understand there are more than just coyote as predators, but I can only imagine a longer season, like all year coyote hunting, May help some.
Outdoors quote (Predators, whether you like it or not, are one of the above mentioned natural resources. They are a renewable resource and are managed as such.)
No one is sure on how coyote got here or if they have always been. However, it is most likely based on pretty extensive research that Coyote migrated from Canada into the Adirondacks in the early 1900's. (the first sightings were recorded in the 20's but i cant remember for certain) Coyote spread south through the rest of the state pretty slowly. I just read an article that was published in 1971 by The Hunting Preview (I think). The article was tittled ""Little Wolf" spreading To Southern Tier". According to that article the sightings in the southern tier had been going on for a decade.
A fun side note and a real kicker is their genetics. Based on the research of Jonathan Way, among others, Coyote in NY are a hybrid of coyote and wolf. The larger size is in part attributed to the hybridization of eastern wolf and coyote. They coined the term Coy-Wolf. Not really a Good name as the amount of wolf genetic is small. I would theories that the extra size is more about harsh climate then wolf genetic. I'm betting the wolf genetic gets more and more removed with each successive breading. The CBC recently put out a documentary that was okay. I forget the name but it had Coy Wolf in the title. I am sure an Internet search will lead you to it if your interested in watching.
It is my opinion, which is based on actual research, the number of coyote and size of coyote in NY is smaller than popular belief. I doubt they have serious effect on turkey populations. I have been wrong in the past though. Research I base my opinions from: my own, DEC, and independent studies by private individuals and universities ESF, UMASS, Pen State.
Hunting coyote has not worked at limiting numbers in the past. Either has trapping or poisoning or released mange..... If the ground can hold coyote.... Then try as you may they are there to stay.
I think predation helps build stronger populations of prey species. So long as predators are managed (not eradicated). NY has a season on coyote which means they are managed. I agree the season should be longer starting September 1. For different reasons though. Since the deer seasons starts earlier now.... It limits early hunting opprotunity because of centerfire restrictions... Or land owners not wanting you to hunt coyote during deer season.
Lol My wife says I have OCD "Obsessed Coyote Disorder". After reading what I just typed.... It's looking like she is correct. I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm just offering up info. I even tried to be funny.
One thing I have noticed is that larger predator populations also coincide with large prey populations. I feel that there is definitely a bigger factor in low turkey numbers than predators.
Excellent post itzDirty, I don't find it argumentative at all. I'm a big predator hunter myself and always looking for a way to lengthen that season :drool:
Nice post, itzDirty. To more directly tackle the questions of if coyotes are invasive, I would argue no. Non-native on the other hand, yes possibly. If they weren't here all along its clear that they got here naturally on their own, "invasive" is usually used in reference to species introduced through direct human action. Further, even if they are non-native, they are largely filling a niche left vacant by the removal of wolves.
It's worth pointing out that the coyotes eastward spread was likely a direct response to the removal of wolves from the landscape. When you "shoot them all", there are often unintended consequences.
Coyotes are opportunistic feeders and studies conducted in collaboration between Virginia Tech and VADGIF are showing very low mortality from coyote predation.
Coyotes eat all species that prey on turkeys to include opossum and raccoon. They're actually a blessing considering the burgeoning egg-eating mammal population.
Thanks. Glad I could add to the conversation.
Quote from: 2much2loud on June 18, 2014, 05:07:14 PM
Never thought too much about until lately... If somebody could tell the hens to find a nesting spot in the timber they would be a little better off.... Every day since the end of May there have been a few hens hanging around a grassy field on the way to work.... I bet my last dollar there was at least one nest in that field... It was plowed last Friday and haven't seen a thing out there..... The wife's grandfather cut his hay field Saterday and kicked a hen off a nest.... Luckily he seen it and left the edge where the nest was uncut for now
Well a little update on the hay cutting ... Good news wife's grampa came down for dinner and said while finishing the cutting they hay he seem 4 adult hens and 39 poults walk across the field.... Hopefully in two years the spring mornings will be noisy.... Lots of gobbling and close calls there this year Just seemed henned up all of May
Quote from: 2much2loud on June 25, 2014, 08:28:37 PM
Quote from: 2much2loud on June 18, 2014, 05:07:14 PM
Never thought too much about until lately... If somebody could tell the hens to find a nesting spot in the timber they would be a little better off.... Every day since the end of May there have been a few hens hanging around a grassy field on the way to work.... I bet my last dollar there was at least one nest in that field... It was plowed last Friday and haven't seen a thing out there..... The wife's grandfather cut his hay field Saterday and kicked a hen off a nest.... Luckily he seen it and left the edge where the nest was uncut for now
Well a little update on the hay cutting ... Good news wife's grampa came down for dinner and said while finishing the cutting they hay he seem 4 adult hens and 39 poults walk across the field.... Hopefully in two years the spring mornings will be noisy.... Lots of gobbling and close calls there this year Just seemed henned up all of May
Thats great news.