Now that the 2014 turkey hunting season is pretty much over, it just seems appropriate to remind all of us of what hunting turkeys is all about. I know that for the majority of us we need no reminder but please bear with me on this subject.
For many of the states in the U.S. turkey harvest numbers are down, some, maybe most for the second year in a row. Urban sprawl is reducing the number of acres we have to hunt. It really is about saving the habitat.
So what can we as turkey hunters do about that? For one thing, we can place less emphasis on the kill and more on the hunt. It's all about woodmanship and outwitting the bird and less upon the distance that we can shoot a bird.
Old Gobbler has led the way and I might add kept the way in keeping us on target in discussing turkey hunting as a sport rather than talking about turkey shooting as a sport. Shooting a turkey is not the sport but calling in a turkey is a big part of the sport and keeping shots at 40 yards and under is a big part of the hunting.
What's my point? The resource, the American Wild Turkey population is down in most parts of the U.S. That's a first for many modern turkey hunters. We need to concentrate more on the hunt than the kill.
We need to support folks who emphasize keeping shots under 40 yards and let anyone who wants us to buy their products or support their products that promote long range turkey shooting that we do not agree with their marketing and will not support them as long as they continue to promote long range turkey killing. The resource, the American Wild Turkey, is too important to reduce to a commodity.
There comes a time when all of us must stand up and be counted. I believe the time is now.
Thanks,
Clark
Good post & I agree 100%
I agree..
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x3 :icon_thumright:
:icon_thumright:
Well said
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Agree! Thanks Clark!
:happy0064:
Clark,
Not to be argumentative, but you always recommend EM's Hevi-shot 6s or 7s. Let's not forget that they started this marketing hoohah with their "pattern-density technology" ads showing the 5s in their MB load being effective at 75+ yds. If everybody quit supporting EM and Winch over their marketing claims, I guess there would be a lot of folks shooting Remington turkey loads.
Well said .
I absolutely agree..the long range marketing for turkey loads is a complete disservice to our sport. Unfortunately Whitetail deer and the Wild Turkey have become a huge commodity due to outfitters, high fence operations, hunting channels/shows, etc. Its a disgrace to hunting when you can contact a ranch, they will send you pics of the deer you are going to kill and also tell you how much the deer cost based on charging you by the inch of antler. A friend of mine put it best "they are pimping the deer and turkeys". Marketing ploys by companies are as a result of a huge systemic problem with respect to preserving our hunting heritage. The trouble is that it's not getting any better.
Where I hunt in the midwest we pay a reasonable price to lease ground. An outfitter right across the fence is charging 4,000 for a 5 day bowhunt. We don't turkey hunt on that ground but the outfitter sells turkey hunts for a $1000 a turkey. I've done my share of guiding but it no longer sits well with me. I don't care to be part of the problem.
Where I grew up hunting in the south paying 250.00 for a yearly membership, it's now $3800 for a 3 day hunt. Leases prices have skyrocketed as well.
Hunting and hunting products are big business and it's unfortunate. The NWTF and hunting shows have done a fantastic job getting more hunters into the woods. Good to have the support but there are now more turkey hunters than ever and declining populations the last couple of years as you mentioned.
Turkeys have more hunting pressure than ever before where I hunt and we hear more shots around our leases than ever. I sure hope they are missing..
I have seen Hunting move from a tradition and heritage to big business in the last 45 years and how to turn that around I don't know. Instilling in new turkey hunters the art of turkey hunting and ethical shots is about our only means of trying to sustain the sport of turkey hunting. Reading on other websites we hear about folks shooting turkeys at 50+ yards regularly. I've been hearing these stories for decades .Hevi 13 and Nitro have encouraged more folks to take longer shots than any thing I have seen in the hunting woods in the last 20yrs. It all started with tight patterning screw in turkey chokes to be honest. Tighter patterns enticed folks to add 5-10 yds to their shots. Winchesters new claims with the LB XR's haven't helped the situation but the long range shooting has been going on since HTL hit the market and even before. Pure Gold is a fantastic company and I have always supported them due their stance on their chokes. "Not designed to increase maximum range but rather to put more shot in the kill zone at reasonable ranges".
Discuss the issue of long range shooting with turkey hunters that hunt near you and educate new hunters. These will be heated discussions, I can tell you from experience, but it is worth it to preserve the Wild turkey as much as we can.
Clark, thank you for all that you do for our sport and help that you give others on this website. You are an asset to our sport.
Can't agree with that more. I've noticed it over the years in my neck of the woods, and have now limited my season to a one bird season over that last couple of years. Don't know if it helps, but I figure if I leave one tag unfilled, that, maybe, just maybe I'll be able to hunt that second bird next year. Just my .02cents worth.
I have much to say on this , and I will chime in with a perspective post when I am off from work tonight
But yes I am in full agreement with Clark with his opinion and possision on the critical situation
On a related but different note, I hear farmers talk every year about all the turkey nests with eggs that they accidently destroy when they cut their fields this time of year. The work that farmers do is super important and they aren't destroying nests intentionally, but I've wondered if there isn't some way for farmers adjust their practices and to delay cutting their fields for a few weeks to allow more of the young turkeys to hatch. Loss of habitat coupled with large losses of eggs is a double whammy to the production and recovery of populations. The growing human population is demanding more food, which is forcing farmers to utilize every square inch of land for crop production, which in turn eliminates habitat for all forms of wildlife.
Good post Clark. In relation to this subject, I think its extremely important to teach and mentor our youth hunters as well. My own nephew on Monday had a very nice gobbler hang up at 65 yards and then leave with two hens. I could tell he was disappointed when we left the woods & he said "uncle I had him in my sights". I explained to him that taking ethical shots would continue to produce more wild turkeys under his belt than unethical ones. He is starting to learn especially when I asked him how he would've felt if he took that shot and crippled that beautiful bird with chances being it suffer a painful death or is picked off by one of the many natural predators at night b/c he broke its wing and it was left on the ground. Just little reminders/examples of how we owe it to them to harvest them quickly without suffering has made him change his way of thinking. I might also add that he is 12 & when I asked him why he thought he could make that shot, his reply was "In a hunting magazine at home there was a shell that could kill out to 70 yards (Long Beards). Needless to say we had a great & educational ride back to his house......
Agree!!!!
Good posts Guys! I agree with ya Longshanks, I've commented many times on the problems with the hunting "industry." I can see a time in the not too distant future where most all hunting is going to be "pay to play." Good job Tomstopper on teaching your nephew an important lesson. He sure isn't going to get it from t.v! Just watched a show where they were turkey hunting the other day and they took a shot at what they said was 40 yards, it sure looked like 60 to me. The birds were over a rise in a field with pretty much only there heads showing and after the shot it looked like both the birds flew off and the camera cut back to the hunters congratulating themselves then cut away again showing them holding a gobbler. None of these shows ever talk about traditions or ethics, they are just thinly disguised info-mercials hawking the latest and greatest gadgets guaranteed to make you successful. I've got nothing against new stuff, I love my new guns and clothes that keep me warm and dry, but they are teaching the wrong lesson to the new/inexperienced hunters that watch. O.k, I'm off my soapbox and i'll now take my med's, lol!!
I was going to write something long winded about hunters being the first conservationists etc... And how like waterfowl populations the overall harvest was controlled by restrictions on weaponry and bag limits , but you know what I'll go straight to the point here ....
I predicted the underground subculture of extreme long range turkey " pot shot " shooting some years ago , and took measures to get a lid on it -- I predicted this by monitoring other bow hunting and waterfowling forums and observed as people with little real world hunting experience , lots of money , and very little common sense bullied and ran off other experienced hunters /forum members some with decades of successful hunting under their belt , as they coined the phases " it's legal so it's ethical " " I know what my gun/bow can do " and so on ..... The real world reality is that many people on the internet all pass themselves off as expert and they lie ! . Just how women and men on dating sites inflate and exaggerate their income, stature , and show doctored up pictures from when they were 40 pounds lighter , so do the people on hunting forum boards lie and distort the real world effectiveness of shotguns and bows - there is no way to candy coat it , there is money in it , so they exaggerate to make $$$ go out to a lake on a 10 mph day and shoot at a Lilly pad or soda can at 50 yards , try it at 82,93 , 100 yards and tell me what you see ...... Not everyday is a perfect day , and a turkeys head is a lot harder than a piece of paper -- for me I have too much respect for wildlife to take chances at crippling game like that - I have zero ......zero respect for any individual that par takes in that activity ... And if you catch someone doing it , I suggest you let that person know how you feel about too -- if this long shot nonsense was to go unchecked I predict within 20 years time it wouldn't be worth it to step out the front door in the hopes of even hearing a gobbler -
For the companies that took,a misstep into the long shot promoting , just cause you sell shoes don't make you a podiatrist ..... Take their suggestive marketing as simply that a suggestion -- some have cleaned up their acts , but yes admittedly some in the past have went over the top - I could write more about this but the ammo company doesn't pull the trigger , YOU the turkey hunter pull the trigger and are responsible for your actions --
There are darn good reasons why rifles are illegal in almost all places for turkey hunting , and the same should be said for " rifle type " shooting of turkeys
You nailed it Clark. :icon_thumright:
I am in total agreement
great post Clark
Great post Clark and something that needed to be said while turkey hunting is fresh in our minds. Many things come into play that help explain what is happening to the sport. First, it's a generational thing. I know there are many that are trying, and some successfully so, to mentor the next generation of hunters. This is a difficult task. Times have changed my friends. We live in a fast moving world where patience is a vanishing virtue. It's a thrill a minute society where a young person can go to their gaming station and 'kill' something at anytime, at any distance. They have come to expect things to happen on demand. And we're all guilty of tuning into those television shows where success is the norm. We all fall for the gimmicks. We use scopes, we use decoys, we use tighter chokes and extended range shotgun shells in an effort to gain an edge. All this is fine but it makes us push the envelope. As Clark so adeptly said, it's the hunt not the kill that will save turkeys. We live in a society where ethics are a rarer and rarer virtue. Deep down, we all know that which is ethical and that which is not. We have to police ourselves. We should all remember what turkey hunter/author, John M. McDaniel said about the noble turkey and its pursuit, and I quote, A turkey hunter with a measure of integrity will take his birds in an honorable manner...The attraction of the hunt is in meeting the challenge of predicting the birds behavior or in fooling him. Satisfaction should be derived from the success with which this is achieved. Killing the bird should only be rewarding when it is the culminating step in meeting significant challenges. Killing alone is meaningless and obscene..." Enough said...
I have been blessed to have killed 5 turkeys in my short career.
I shoot hevishot, not to extend my range, but to increase my pattern density.
In all 5 kills, I have not shot a bird over 30 yards. In fact most have been in the 20-25 yard range.
Getting him close enough to hear him spitting and drumming is the rush!
Good post, Clark! :icon_thumright:
Well said Clark..
Well said Clark. Unfortunately that's the way that everything in hunting is going now. Just the other day I saw an advertisement for a bow sight that advertised shots to 100 yards, and claims of 200+ yard muzzle loaders are everywhere now.
Thanks Clark and thanks for all the positive support from many others on this subject. Just this morning I was reading a review on Bass Pro Shop from a never again Win LB shooter . Why? Because he shot one at over 50 yards with that load and had to run it down before getting off another shot. I never had to do that with my Remington 3.5-2 1/4- 5s and I even shot one at 70 yards he continued.
For the past two or three years we have experienced extensive droughts in California , New Mexico, Texas to name some states and with feral hogs and coyotes coming on strong I believe that it will be a tough go for the near future. On the other side of the coin, overpopulation is usually controlled by some type of disease getting into the herd or flock. We as hunters have had some of the best populations of both deer and turkey over the past 20-30 years that we may ever see.
I will share with you a story , by a friend and member of the forum
He was hunting out west and had filled his tags , he is a very experienced veteran turkey hunter and very good caller - he had no problem killing countless turkeys , why....cause he is a good caller and hunter
Whilst he was at the camp a very inexperienced hunter came back to camp and proclaimed " these darn shells aren't worth a bleep-bleep " they are advertised to kill out to 80 yards -" I shot at a gobbler at 75 yards and it got away " - I'll leave your imagination up to what company and recent advertising celebrities the hunter who came back to camp was referring to , but we have all seen the adds by a certain brothers and a very advanced lead offering made available this season with over the top advertising and bs claims
What happened to that gobbler ? Good chance a pellet or two hit him , and he might recover , then again he may not be able to fly up to the roost or digest food because of a stray pellet and die a slow death - sad - me and the member here came to the sad conclusion that this scenario probably repeated itself THOUSANDS OF TIMES THIS SPRING not just with this product but with many other loads with some clueless fool at the trigger - as I type this there are thousands of gobblers limping or rotting in the woods , over time this is a detrimental hardship on the population and you will see the harvest figures drop as more people that don't belong in the woods take shots like this and remove a sustainable species out of the habitat
WHAT IS IN THE FUTURE FOR THE WILD TURKEY ? ..... Will the sport of turkey hunting be transformed into a adventure similar to prairie dog shooting ? Where tech gun geeks try to pass themselves off as bonafide turkey hunters , or will the masses wake up and reject all this bs advertising and straight out lies by a handful of marketing fools and self proclaimed " experts " on the inter---net -
There is another thread on this forum , where a member with 18 posts has proclaimed he has seen a couple of gobblers " hunch up " after being shot at at 60 plus yards and fly/run away ..... Take a guess what will happen to those gobblers .... Looking at his posts he was offering to pay ( illegally ) $ 100 for 10 TSS hand loads - what do you do with people like this , they are a victim of misinformation ? Or something else -
Turkey hunting , with all the skill it takes to learn how to do it right is a very high skill thing to do , it's like learning some martial art like Kung fu , it takes years to get good at it , and it's not for everyone ....you can't run out to a store and buy yourself to the stature of a turkey hunter ......it's a skill ....
Good post Shannon! :agreed:
I was sitting around thinking about what could actually be done to educate the hunting community nationwide with respect to this issue. The only person I've heard say anything about this is Michael Waddell. He stated he would "never shoot a turkey past 40yds" in a preview to a turkey hunting special on the outdoor channel. This would have to be approached on a local level as well as a national level to have a lasting effect. A proactive stance on many levels to the only way to approach this. Brainstorming the ideas for approaching this would be the next step. Here are a few ideas I've come up with:
Hunting camps: take this issue to your board and discuss the ill effects of long range shooting. If this is going on within the camp already this will help with addressing the issue. Propose a 40yd rule.
Hunting Leases: if it is your lease or you have input with the rules, don't allow shooting over 40yds.
*When you hear people discussing long shots, step up to the plate and address it immediately.
*if the problem is as widespread as some say..this will address the issue on allot of leased lands and hunting camps. Private land will be the most difficult areas to address the issue.
Educate the public nationally:
Any connections that any of us have in the hunting industry, hunting shows, game call business, professional guides etc we need to contact them and discuss the growing problem. These people can be very influential with respect to educating the public.
Need a nationally known spokes person that feels strongly about the issue and is willing to get involved. It is going to have to be addressed on turkey hunting shows on the outdoor channel and sportsman channel. All you need is folks agreeing to put in a 5 minute dissertation on how more effective it is to let turkeys get inside 40yds before shooting. Going to have to sell this as something positive and a hunting tip that will let someone harvest more turkeys. Since allot of new turkey hunters are getting their info from hunting shows then this is a tip they need. When is the last time you heard someone on a turkey show talk about shooting inside 40yds? I've never heard that on a turkey hunting show accept for Michael Waddell. Need to get people on board that are willing to give a talk on the issue at huntng seminars. They have speakers all day long and they are always trying to fill spots. Educating the public on using a range finder for turkey hunting, set your 40 marks with the range finder and then start calling. I have found that people have a very difficult time judging yardage sitting on the ground. If we are going to stand and be heard then folks are gonna have to be willing to do some talking.
Get the NWTF on board with respect to this issue. If it is as widespread as some say and you can prove it..it will be an easy sell to them. They will help with getting articles into hunting magazines and on their website. Turkey & Turkey hunting magazine/website would be one of the best to get articles in about this issue. You get the NWTF behind the issue and they will have it broadcasted in every arena if the turkey hunting world.
My point is there are allot of ways to approach this and I'm sure you guys have allot of great ideas as well. These are just a few ideas I've come up with. If we are going to stand and be heard...then we are gonna have to stand up and be heard. Not buying products or supporting companies going to be a difficult approach because these shells that are being marketed are still some of the best patterning loads inside 40 so people are going to buy them regardless. Hevi 13 and Winchester are sone of the best turkey loads inside 40yds period and a staple shell of the majority of turkey hunters.
Good post by all.
The marketing hype of the 55, 66, 70 and so on yard shot is only a part of the problem. Much like bowhunting this is a close range sport. I will quote what my Dad said at the end of our 2014 season when he had only killed one bird, and had countless inside of 60 yards but only one inside of 40. "I got to see them and hear them gobble. That's worth something right there."
Sure I've got a set up that will cleanly kill past 40, so dose most who post here, but that's not the fun of it. I myself would rather have one spit and drum at 12 yards and blow my hat off with a gobble, than snipe one with htl #6 at 59 steps any day.
Instant gratification of the kill is ruining the hunting traditions of what we know. This is being fueled by the video market be it, on cable TV or the internet. A kill at all cost has become more important than the hunt. Woodsmanship has been lost to technology, and both respect for our quarry and our selves along with it.
Good post by all, and I agree. However, the problem will be harder to fix than most would imagine.
It's kind of like the alcoholic uncle or crackhead cousin you only see at christmas. Most people won't confront them in fear of "creating a scene and ruining the holiday".......
Example: You and a few buddies are sitting around the campfire the night before opening day of turkey season. One buddy says, "boy, I can't wait for that 'ol tom to hit that field in the morning...his arse hangs up at 60 yds on me this year, I got some medicine for him"........
Are you going to be the one to stand up to the crowd and potentially ruin everyone's good time ? Will you stick your head in the sand and hope he doesn't have the chance to even try it ? Or will you take a stand ?
I venture to say most won't, because peer pressure affects a lot of folks, be they 15 or 55 years old. It can't be left to national celebs to do it, because they too have mostly embraced the long range ventures too, they have a limited amount of time to get tv shows produced and it has to get done or they lose the sponsorship for the show. I won't depend on the NWTF because they run the shotshell ads during their airing times....but I can honestly say I will....will you ??
The sad part of all of this is, it's hard to instill ethics, common sense, pride, respect, moral standards and class into people who don't desire to have those qualities. So much more can be said but, I'm tired and may write nonsense if I continue.
Quote from: BowBendr on May 25, 2014, 12:57:12 AM
Good post by all, and I agree. However, the problem will be harder to fix than most would imagine.
It's kind of like the alcoholic uncle or crackhead cousin you only see at christmas. Most people won't confront them in fear of "creating a scene and ruining the holiday".......
Example: You and a few buddies are sitting around the campfire the night before opening day of turkey season. One buddy says, "boy, I can't wait for that 'ol tom to hit that field in the morning...his arse hangs up at 60 yds on me this year, I got some medicine for him"........
Are you going to be the one to stand up to the crowd and potentially ruin everyone's good time ? Will you stick your head in the sand and hope he doesn't have the chance to even try it ? Or will you take a stand ?
I venture to say most won't, because peer pressure affects a lot of folks, be they 15 or 55 years old. It can't be left to national celebs to do it, because they too have mostly embraced the long range ventures too, they have a limited amount of time to get tv shows produced and it has to get done or they lose the sponsorship for the show. I won't depend on the NWTF because they run the shotshell ads during their airing times....but I can honestly say I will....will you ??
Well if we are going to be afraid to say anything, unwilling to ask for support in the hunting community, and not ask the most influential organization (NWTF) for help then absolutely nothing will be done. That would be an apathetic stance to take and nothing will change. Michael Waddell one of the most influential hunting personalities with respect to children has already run a weekly spot for one of his shows that he would "never shoot a turkey past 40yds". Getting support for this issue is not such a reach if you you are passionate about preserving the Wild Turkey. I sure would hate to see folks take an apathetic position on this and if that's the case then complaining through a website is just rhetoric and posturing.
In the past I have talked with a number of hunters that took shots past 40yds and lost the turkey. Trust me, after they do this they aren't having a good time. It's the lowest of low feeling in the turkey woods. After talking to them about yardage they go out harvest the next turkey no problem. They become a 40 yarder for life. I've taught allot of kids to hunt and guided folks who were absolutely willing to learn. The discussion is a positive one and what you are talking to them about is being more effective and harvesting a higher percentage of turkeys they pull the trigger on. People will listen if you speak to them in a helpful way and give them strategies that work but if you are going to bash them and insult them it will not work. Taking a proactive stance on this is the only way to educate folks and make a change.
So by this logic I should say all of us should kill out birds at under 10 yards like i do when bowhunting?
I certainly agree with keeping shots within our effective range,however it is a drop in the bucket as far as population control is concerned. Nesting conditions, predators, too many available tags and longer seasons have contributed to the decline more than anything.
Quote from: Dtrkyman on May 27, 2014, 11:33:14 PM
So by this logic I should say all of us should kill out birds at under 10 yards like i do when bowhunting?
I certainly agree with keeping shots within our effective range,however it is a drop in the bucket as far as population control is concerned. Nesting conditions, predators, too many available tags and longer seasons have contributed to the decline more than anything.
If I'm not mistaken what we are trying to deter is long range shooting. Long range shooting would be over 40-45 yds. The talk and practice of shooting 50,60,70 yards is detrimental to our sport and it's becoming more popular with the marketing and improvement in shells. If the harvest of gobblers is a drop in the bucket then that would be contrary to what we see in the numerous states we hunt. What we see is large groups of hens anywhere from 30-80 in number and groups of mature gobblers 2-4 and 6-8 at the most. We are seeing an extreme difference in numbers of hens compared to gobblers which can only be attributed to harvest. Nesting and predators may be an issue where overall numbers of turkeys are down but what we are seeing is a shortage of gobblers. We are the only predator targeting the male side of the species. Number of tags is an issue in many states but there allot of states such as MS that go on the honor system (3 birds) no accountability..Feeding and shooting over feed has attributed to decline in numbers in many areas as well. Addressing the issues with respect to laws, long seasons, controlling predators and hunting practices is essential. Being the turkey gun area of this website, that's why we are addressing the gun/shell/ shooting issues first and foremost.
I have said all I can say. I have numerous avenues that I am going to pursue with respect to the preservation of the Wild Turkey and Turkey Hunting, the sport that means so much to my friends and family. I hope others will pursue this as well and not take an apathetic stance to the issues at hand. Clark, thank you for the motivation and it really made me take a look in the mirror. As much as turkey hunting has meant to me, I need to be more proactive.
Quote from: Longshanks on May 28, 2014, 11:36:58 AM
I have said all I can say. I have numerous avenues that I am going to pursue with respect to the preservation of the Wild Turkey and Turkey Hunting, the sport that means so much to my friends and family. I hope others will pursue this as well and not take an apathetic stance to the issues at hand. Clark, thank you for the motivation and it really made me take a look in the mirror. As much as turkey hunting has meant to me, I need to be more proactive.
You've said it well. We all need to "look in the mirror" and think about what we as individuals can do in our part of the world and in our areas of influence.
No one of us can do it all but all of us can do something.
Turkey hunting means a lot to me as well. I've made some of my best friends due to a mutual interest in hunting those birds.
Thanks,
Clark
If any have noticed I haven't posted this spring. We started a new company and it stopped life for a few months. I only got to hunt twice this spring.
I came home for the last weekend of the Alabama season so I could get out and take a couple kids hunting. The kid I was taking was hunting his second year and was part of our 3 days 3 hunters and 9 turkey weekend last season. In the off season he had seen me shoot hundreds of dollars of shells at targets out to 60 plus yards with my 935 testing chokes and loads. We both knew what that gun will do...
First morning in the woods we heard a trio and a single gobbling and went to the single. After a hour or so he strutted in and we watched him for 40 minutes before the boy shot him at 18 steps with my 935 and 517T blends.
Second morning we went to the trio and worked them til 1 that afternoon. We had worked them from flydown into feeding time and found ourselves in the creek swamp in a pretty open run of the creek. I had to leave the woods at 2 to go to dinner with tge family and head back to work. At 1:30 the 3 gobblers strutted into view at 62 yards by rangefinder. They never broke 55 yards. At 1:45 I picked up my Nikon dslr and took a few photos, gave a couple of alert putts and watched the run off at 1:55.
You would have thought I had slapped the kid. He couldn't believe I hadn't shot. He watched me put 30 pellets in turkey head targets at 60 plus on several occasions. So I called the wife and told her I would be a little late. Sat him where I was sitting and walked to where the gobblers were and proceeded to walk back to him breaking off bushes and limbs that were between me and the turkeys. When I got back to him I handed him an arm full of twigs and brush.
I left my tags unfilled for the first time in 12 years. Could I have killed the turkey? Possibly. But I could not guarantee it.
I watched patterns be blown off target and felt myself flinch or jerk the trigger when shooting targets in the off season way too often to believe I could pull the shot off. On my last day at the range I promised myself 45 yards was my max - no excuses! I was tested and passed.
Bottom line is I am shooting the baddest rig I have ever had and will shoot no farther with the 935 and Nitros than I will with my 1300 and winchester lead. I know without a doubt that 45 and under no turkey stands a chance with either rig on any day if I hold the bead on him.
Next year I plan to be shooting a 10 gauge Browning Gold Lite and will cap it at 45 as well.
I hope that morning taught the boy and I both something.
QuoteI hope that morning taught the boy and I both something.
Your demonstration to him that it's more about the hunt than the kill said more than words every could.
Thanks,
Clark
Best post/read/truth I have read on this forum. Mr Clark, I have no idea who you are, and you have no idea who I am but I can tell you and every other one of you on this topic that I respect you. Hunting and fishing has turned into polished off bull crap. I am not trying to sound like the guy who knows everything . many if yiu have probably kikled more birds than i have seen. however, turkey hunting is something that i truely appreciate. I have had lots of success, and even more failure. but to me that is what is so great about this wonderful sport. If you're gun ain't a 60 yard turkey killer, then you're considered to be inferior. If you're scope doesn't have Bdc reticle and shoot great at 427 yards, then you need a new gun. An old school open faced Abu Garcia reel is simply a thing of the past because there aren't enough bearings to make it "smooth". Apparently you can't kill ducks unless you have a pattern master choke tube, and if you shoot speed balls and hevi metal then you can kill cleanly at 65 yards. Humbly I ask, how? Why? How has all of this changed what we love so much It makes me sad to think of the future. There are no ethics anymore. This has definitely been a wake up call to me. It hit home if y'all know what I mean. I wouldn't even want to think of shooting a bird at 60 yards. It's not a ding dang Xbox game. My favorite 2 things in the world are huntin mallard ducks in flooded green timber and listening to that almost haunting sound of that wise ol long beard light it up down the river. Why would we as a Peaple want to change what has worked perfectly fine for years ad years? I believe it all goes back to ethics. They just don't make em anymore. In no way am I trying to be arrogant in any way. All if this just struck home and it fires me up when Peaple talk of how far they can shoot something. Also, yes. I shoot htl. Y'all inspired me and made me literally obsessed with a 20 gauge turkey gun. I love federal hw 7 and I will continue to shoot hevi 13 6s in a 12 gauge because at20-40 yards te results are devastating Sure. Me and dang near everybody else on here can kill a bird way past 40 but I ask the question to myself as much as anyone after thinking about all this, why? I will end my rant for the night but I would sincerely like to take my hat off and shake the hands of some true good Peaple. Thank you all for making me stop and think. Hats off, and god bless brothers
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QuoteI have had lots of success, and even more failure. but to me that is what is so great about this wonderful sport.
Thank you. Very well said. That truly is what's so great about this sport. It's knowing that every time we go to the fields and woods we must do the best that we can, use our senses and that we may walk away without ever firing a shot. The hours that we spend afield are truly what it's all about.
Thanks,
Clark
Quote from: Daman on May 31, 2014, 08:58:02 PM
If any have noticed I haven't posted this spring. We started a new company and it stopped life for a few months. I only got to hunt twice this spring.
I came home for the last weekend of the Alabama season so I could get out and take a couple kids hunting. The kid I was taking was hunting his second year and was part of our 3 days 3 hunters and 9 turkey weekend last season. In the off season he had seen me shoot hundreds of dollars of shells at targets out to 60 plus yards with my 935 testing chokes and loads. We both knew what that gun will do...
First morning in the woods we heard a trio and a single gobbling and went to the single. After a hour or so he strutted in and we watched him for 40 minutes before the boy shot him at 18 steps with my 935 and 517T blends.
Second morning we went to the trio and worked them til 1 that afternoon. We had worked them from flydown into feeding time and found ourselves in the creek swamp in a pretty open run of the creek. I had to leave the woods at 2 to go to dinner with tge family and head back to work. At 1:30 the 3 gobblers strutted into view at 62 yards by rangefinder. They never broke 55 yards. At 1:45 I picked up my Nikon dslr and took a few photos, gave a couple of alert putts and watched the run off at 1:55.
You would have thought I had slapped the kid. He couldn't believe I hadn't shot. He watched me put 30 pellets in turkey head targets at 60 plus on several occasions. So I called the wife and told her I would be a little late. Sat him where I was sitting and walked to where the gobblers were and proceeded to walk back to him breaking off bushes and limbs that were between me and the turkeys. When I got back to him I handed him an arm full of twigs and brush.
I left my tags unfilled for the first time in 12 years. Could I have killed the turkey? Possibly. But I could not guarantee it.
I watched patterns be blown off target and felt myself flinch or jerk the trigger when shooting targets in the off season way too often to believe I could pull the shot off. On my last day at the range I promised myself 45 yards was my max - no excuses! I was tested and passed.
Bottom line is I am shooting the baddest rig I have ever had and will shoot no farther with the 935 and Nitros than I will with my 1300 and winchester lead. I know without a doubt that 45 and under no turkey stands a chance with either rig on any day if I hold the bead on him.
Next year I plan to be shooting a 10 gauge Browning Gold Lite and will cap it at 45 as well.
I hope that morning taught the boy and I both something.
Nice to see a turkey hunter with discipline. Well done. I'm grateful to those who taught me how to hunt. "Leave things better than you found them and don't take more than you need" was what an old turkey hunter taught me years ago. He understood game management, protecting and growing a resource and ethically harvesting game. Taking a high risk of wounding a turkey is nothing more than greed and a lack of respect for the game.
Quote from: Bigspurs68 on May 25, 2014, 08:11:08 AM
The sad part of all of this is, it's hard to instill ethics, common sense, pride, respect, moral standards and class into people who don't desire to have those qualities.
I have went back and read this thread 2 or 3 times, and this post I quoted above makes a lot of sense.
I am really starting to become somewhat confused...maybe somewhat mad, because Bigspurs68 is correct.
We have been advocating 40 yds here on OG for some time now, but just today alone, I can't tell you how many post i've read of shots on gobblers over 50 yds, especially with the long beard shells.....and I don't see a soul lifting a finger to stop them......and if you do, their response is, "I see this forum has your type here too".
I made the comment in my earlier post that stopping the "air ball" shots was not going to be an easy undertaking, and i'm being sadly proven correct. We can't even get people to post in the correct section on the forum. Turkey call questions in the gun section, gun questions in the pattern pic section...it's a mess, etc.. My whole point is: How do you get the message across when the people coming onto this board don't even remotely take the time to simply read the rules ??
We could have 1 full time person on here doing nothing but moving threads into the correct section and calling people down on everything that's wrong, and they would be worked to death.....but I don't believe any of us want to spend our time on a forum as fine as this one is, constantly being patrolled by the "web police"....
Bigspurs is exactly right. You can't instill these values we hope to promote into certain people. Some folks are just plain out idiots, and if they don't get it, they don't get it....and sitting down today to read just furthered what I already knew in my head all along....you can lead a horse to water, but you can NOT make them drink.....
Sorry for my rant, but I have lost all toleration for folks that just don't get it, it's sad to say, but i've lost a lot of faith in a certain area of man-kind....some folks is just dumb.....if you can't read the rules...maybe this isn't the place for you.........
Thanks for listening
-Scott
Just as a added note... It can be equally as unethical to let a bird get too close. Shooting a bobbing head with what is essentially a slug, can be a tricky situation. It's not always kill or miss at close range either. My worse turkey chase started as a extreme close range shot in big hills. I caught up to him but my sloppy aiming almost caused a nightmare for me. Just as a matter of fact, I have shot a large number of turkeys and when a person does anything hundreds of times, sooner or later, something bad will happen. When it does, we must do a couple things. First and foremost, finish what we started for the animas sake and then, if we truly care, we must check ourselves. Sit down, and ask yourself what caused the situation. Sometimes it is something unforeseen that we couldn't change. More often, it is our own poor judgement. In this case, we must be harder on ourselves than any others could be. When any season ends, deer, turkey, trapping...whatever..I want to reflect on those hunts and have no regrets about what I have done.
I do my best to teach my children in my own hard way. They have done well. It makes me proud. They still have far to go. So do I.
Quote from: Bigspurs68 on June 01, 2014, 11:22:41 PM.....if we truly care, we must check ourselves. Sit down, and ask yourself what caused the situation. Sometimes it is something unforeseen that we couldn't change. More often, it is our own poor judgement. In this case, we must be harder on ourselves than any others could be. When any season ends, deer, turkey, trapping...whatever..I want to reflect on those hunts and have no regrets about what I have done.
I do my best to teach my children in my own hard way. They have done well. It makes me proud. They still have far to go. So do I.
Very well stated Sir. I applaud your attitude and ethics. :icon_thumright:
Great posts by everyone! This all brings tears to an overweight, overworked 58+ year old man. It also reflects the lack of ethics in everything and makes me long for the older less complicated days! Too bad only a small portion of America takes this attitude. We all need to do more to promote this as some of all you have shown. :smiley-patriotic-flagwaver-an
QuoteWe all need to do more to promote this as some of all you have shown.
It is said that a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. It appears that many worthwhile causes are begun by a few people of like mind who spread the word. It's one person telling another and as has also been shown by setting an example.
We all can do something to help and take that first step.
Thanks,
Clark
Great post,Right on everyone!
Thank you
B-Well All
The Over-Bored Barrels, Custom Screw-In Chokes with Wad Catchers, HTL loads, the newer better Lead loads, and Better Sights have created a high horsepower racecar. The general public will never limit themselves to 55 mph, when their racecar is capable of going 200 mph. The days of "call him in as close as you can" have been replaced by "call him in close enough to shoot him".
We went from the Hawken to the modern in-line black powder rifle, and there's no going back to the Hawken. The industry itself is always looking for ways to sell new product. Promises of increased range and effectiveness sell product.
The ball is already rolling down hill at a great rate of speed. Long range shooting has a lot of momentum already. What will the next new choke or new box of shells promise to consumers?
Good luck at changing public opinion.
As someone new to the sport, and who hunts on public land, this topic is near and dear to me. When I did my hunter safety and education course (a requirement here in Ontario) Our instructor was amazing. His biggest emphasis was placed on ethics. The 2 most important things I took away from it were "just because it's legal, doesn't mean it's ethical" and that "a hunter's actions reflect all hunters" I feel he was absolutely correct and that the sentiment of his messages are reflected in the statements of the original poster.
Did I want to burn a turkey opening day, and fill a second tag on day 2? Of course I did, but you know what? I also want to be able to hunt next year, and the year after that, and so on, and I can just stop at the grocery store and get whatever I want for the dinner table. To me there's just no reason to take a long distance shot that could leave an animal wounded, we owe them that much.
Well gents...I suppose all of us have taken a long shot unintentionally. I know I have. Been mostly lucky in recovering those birds. I recall one bird in particular that got out of ethical range faster than I had realized. I shot. He flew off, landed in a tree and fell out a few minutes later. I searched and searched for that bird. Didn't find him. I had a 10 ga. with the best ammo made. I hit where I was aiming...Let me tell you, that was a sick feeling knowing I had wounded that poor devil. I went over and over that mistake that night,imagining that poor gobbler suffering...To my great relief my buddy who was hunting the same farm killed him the next day. He had pellets in his back...I do everything I can to not experience that feeling again...Have I shot over 40 since? Yep,a few times I have mistaken range and stretched it. That's a great reason to use the new ammo. It can give you that measure of forgiveness...That being said, my biggest thrill is getting a bird really close. I love to mash heads and those close shots...Man, they do something for me! That and no pellets in the meat...
Education for new hunters is essential for the sport and minimizing long shots early in folks turkey hunting careers just as was written in a previous post. That's was education does. Most avid turkey hunters have found out that long range shooting is not productive by taking a misjudged shot and losing a bird. The most important thing is to not let the snow stick with respect to unethical marketing schemes geared toward selling shells to the inexperienced promising results at 50,60,70.
Consistently discussing the issue in the hunting community, hunting leases, hunting camps, seminars, hunting shows if you have access, will keep the issue on the forefront of people's minds. Your not going to change everyone but we can certainly make an impact in the turkey hunting community. People want to be productive in the woods so discussing a more productive way to harvest turkeys doesn't fall on deaf ears.
We have had this discussion in the leases that I hunt in the midwest and in the south with respect to taking shots too far with muzzleloaders, bows, and turkey guns. We had to address this issue especially with muzzleloaders when companies promised 200-250 yd shots. People could hit paper with their gun in a lead sled..but we saw allot of trophy deer wounded and lost due to folks attempting these shots. The fact of the matter is everyone makes mistakes and we see game lost due to folks taking shots with a high risk of losing the animal. Talk to them in a respectful way and they listen, or if they don't and repeat the behavior...we tell them to find somewhere else to hunt. Make a stand if you care about the sport of hunting. If not...say nothing.
AMEN!!!! This is the reason, along with the cost, that I got off of the HTL bandwagon and went back to shooting lead loads, I found myself looking at that big piece of paper on the wall in my basement with the 10" circle and thinking "Man, I can kill one at least to 50 yards" I thought to myself after a few years of hunting with HTL, why am I doing this? How dead do I need these turkeys to be? I'm taking shots well inside 40 yards, do I need to hunt with this load? I was killing them just fine when I was shooting 2 3/4" Fed. premium magnum 6's thru a full choke (this was pre-limbsaver days, hated the recoil of 3" shells in my 500). I always strive to be a "turkey" when I'm turkey hunting, I listen to the cadence of hens calling, their wing beats when they flydown, what they sound like when their scratching and do my best to mimic that. That is the reason I fell in love with turkey hunting, it was the calling that hooked me. Yeah, I love killin' them but fooling a wild animal into thinking your one them is icing on the cake for me. I say SHAME on the "Brothers" and ALL the rest of the TV hunting community that promotes unethical "hunting". The "Brothers" aren't the first to do this though, I remember watching one of the TV shows of one of the commercial call companies that we all see sold at Wal-Mart taking 60 yard shots at turkeys with a HTL load that alot of people on here shoot. I really think my single shot stevens model 12 gauge will get used alot more often just as a way of keeping me in check and reminding me why I started hunting turkeys. My :z-twocents: