Let me preface this by saying I am in no way wanting to start any arguments with this thread. If an argument ensues I will ask CASH to delete the thread. I am stating my personal observations with Winchester Longbeard XR 3.5" #5 (LBXR) and the now discontinued Winchester Xtended Range High Density (XRHD) 3.5" #6 this weekend should the information prove to be useful or interesting to anyone. Since the XRHD can no longer be purchased, this is not an attempt to sway anyone to a certain shell. However since this seems to be Winchester's replacement for the discontinued shell, I thought it interesting to observe how one compares to the other.
I needed to set the sight on a new Mossberg 935 22" this weekend. I have a stash of the XRHD shells and this will be my shell of choice until they run out. The choke I was using is the Indian Creek BDS .675. I picked up a box of LBXR out of curiosity and took them along. I also secured a couple of identical phone books for a penetration test. All testing was done at 40 yards, 68 degrees with very calm air. There is nothing scientific about this test and I do not propose that this predicts performance on turkeys, only paper. 10 shells of each type were fired.
I had read that the LBXR shells were longer than other 3.5" shells due to the interesting plastic cover and rolled crimp style. Side by side with the XRHD, they are absolutely identical in length. Both shells performed flawlessly in the 935 with no FTE or FTF or FTL.
Patterns on the LBXR #5 were in the 170's and 180's in a 10 inch circle.
Patterns on the XRHD #6 were mostly in the 190's to 212 in a 10 inch circle but two shots were in the low 180's.
It would appear that the LBXR, while posting lower numbers which is to be expected, there are about 75 less shot per shell, posted better overall percentages and a bit more consistent patterns.
While I did not cut shells open and count, per my tables 2 oz of #6 from XRHD should be around 414 shot and 2 oz of lead #5 should be about 339 shot. Highest count pattern for the XRHD was 212 which would be 51% and highest count for the LBXR was 186 which would be 55%. This has made me interested in going back with a box of LBXR in #6 as I believe it may well beat the count of the XRHD #6 by a fair margin. However that is only speculation at this time.
I also noted the POI for the LBXR #5 shot was a good 6 inches lower than the XRHD #6. I am unsure of the reason for this. It could be that despite the published velocities, 1200fps vs 1225fps, the LBXR is arriving slower. Perhaps air resistance on the larger profile #5 shot is causing this, however this is also only speculation.
Which brings us to the phone book penetration test. To my surprise, the LBXR #5 actually failed to penetrate the phone book as deeply as the XRHD #6 by around 50 less pages. Conventional wisdom has held that larger shot retained down range energy and penetrated better. This was my reason for choosing #5 for this test, trying to match a lead shot to a HTL shot size for a fair comparison. This could support the theory above that the #5 shot is actually arriving at 40 yards slower, or it could be the larger profile shot simply encounters more resistance trying to push thru dry paper. Either way, it only proves performance on paper, not on turkeys, or any other form of wet flesh. It also does not indicate how much force overall was delivered to the phone books, which I have no means to measure. The Lead LBXR shot proved to be sufficiently hard as all shot recovered from the phone book exhibited no visible deformation from the barrel and choke, or from the impact with the phone book.
In summary, this testing only proves that in my selected gun and choke, both shells pattern exceptionally well and are both easily lethal to 40 yards with plenty room for a yardage estimation error. Once my stash of XRHD runs out, I will have no reservations in switching to the LBXR.
Good review. Always search out your posts. The new longbeards will have no problem killing at 40 yards, but the marketing of the longer ranges is what bothers me. Good luck this season!
Good write up skeeterbait, I am curious if the lead pellets deformed on impact of the phone book and if so could be a major factor why they would not penetrate as far as the HD which I assume didn't deform. Would be a good comparison with #6 LB and the #6 HD in the numbers department, keep us updated if you do try the 6'sin the Long Beard.
That's GREAT info!!! THANKS for the post!!! :icon_thumright: :icon_thumright: :icon_thumright:
Very good read. Thanks for the insight
I went back and added that the lead pellets from the LBXR recovered from the phone book had no visible deformation.
Awesome read Skeeterbait, as always.Great info. Lee :icon_thumright:
Question?
Did the #5s from the LB shell you pulled from the phone book look to be normal "5s"?
I shot a couple LB rounds this past weekend too and the pattern holes appeared smaller than the lead 5s should. May be wrong and figured I'd ask someone who has stated they held undeformed LB 5s.
Thanks
They were considerably larger than the HTL 6's. I however did not put a mic on them and measure. I was surprised how much bigger they were than the HTL 6's.
I noticed you said the HD's penetrated about 50 pages deeper, how deep into the phone book did each group penetrate?
Great read. Now you've got me thinking. Does anybody know if any or what the density difference between the xrhd and Hevi shot are? Though I'm like you, and don't know how much a phone book and a turkeys head have in common, except that I imagine a phone book is much more dense, this is still a neat test. I have some Hevi 6's and think I might just try this for observation. The big difference between the Win. XRHD and the Hevi is the velocity, 1225 vs 1090 which should make a difference. I'm a fan of Hevi 6's and LB 5's so this would be interesting to me. I know what the math says, but sometimes test are fun and enlightening. I've killed enough turkeys to know what each do, so that's not even the point. Just cool to piddle sometimes.
Quote from: Skeeterbait on March 10, 2014, 11:49:04 AM
They were considerably larger than the HTL 6's. I however did not put a mic on them and measure. I was surprised how much bigger they were than the HTL 6's.
Thanks for the reply. Good write up.
The way I evaluated the phone books is this. First I found one outlier where two pellets entered the same hole and were found back to back in one hole. This caused extra deep penetration on that hole only so I threw that hole out and did not count it. For each I found the last page broken. Not dented, but actually torn. Then I backed up page by page until I found a page with at least 5 separate tears and counted that as the maximum penetration page. For XRHD #6 it was the cover of the book and 172 actual pages. Not page numbers, but actual pieces of paper. For the LBXR #5 it was the cover and 118 actual pages. I should also note that the books had been taped shut with duct tape to keep them from flying open and were suspended in a patterning frame hanging from strips of duct tape to allow them to flop back as energy was delivered.
Great post. Thanks for the info!!!!
Excellent information , well presented. It makes sense to me that the higher density (ands smaller shot) would penetrate further but until you do what you did who knows the results.
Thanks
Quote from: darn2ten on March 10, 2014, 12:07:08 PM
Great read. Now you've got me thinking. Does anybody know if any or what the density difference between the xrhd and Hevi shot are? Though I'm like you, and don't know how much a phone book and a turkeys head have in common, except that I imagine a phone book is much more dense, this is still a neat test. I have some Hevi 6's and think I might just try this for observation. The big difference between the Win. XRHD and the Hevi is the velocity, 1225 vs 1090 which should make a difference. I'm a fan of Hevi 6's and LB 5's so this would be interesting to me. I know what the math says, but sometimes test are fun and enlightening. I've killed enough turkeys to know what each do, so that's not even the point. Just cool to piddle sometimes.
No difference...they are both 12 gm/cc. Great post Skeeterbait.
Very interesting. Now for my experience. I have been experimenting with the HTL-13
#6 vs #5 Magnum lead shot by Knight. This is from a muzzleloader turkey gun (209X12) with identicle velocities that is cosmeticaly 1200fps. I have done tons of testing for bullet companies and treated this no different. My test media was catalogs made of vinyl coat. Those familier with it know it is very hard to penitrate. The .375" thick catologs easily stopped both types of shot at 40 yards. The HTL only penitrated an average of 3 more pages. The #5 lead was un-deformed and deffinately did more damage. 112 vs 115 pages. No turkey would ever know the difference. Ether shot at this velocity wood get it done. reflexl
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y221/stcb/shotsizes_zps3f9541fa.jpg)
Difference in recovered shot sizes, Winchester Extended Range High Density #6 on the left and Winchester Longbeard XR #5 on the right.
Great info guys
Very good job.
I have been shooting HEVI 13 6's for the last 4 years but may have to try some of the new long beard 6's if I can ever find any.
Very good post
Good read right there.
I counted 496 longbeard xr 6's in a 3.5 shell. They are smaller than a 6. I cut open an old federal 6 and if was very easy to see how much smaller the lb pellets are.
Here is a post from Clark where he randomly looked at 25 LB #6's, most were smaller, with some in the #7 or smaller size.
http://oldgobbler.com/Forum/index.php/topic,41747.0.html
Yeap only one of the pellets he tested was a true #6 with the majority being number#7 or smaller
This is why I shoot #5's. Pellets being smaller are certainly not exclusive to the LB 6's. I cut open a #7 Hevi one time after noticing all the little bitty holes in my pattern. There were pellet sizes all over the place in that shell, with some being # 9 or smaller.
Quote from: darn2ten on March 10, 2014, 11:49:04 PM
This is why I shoot #5's. Pellets being smaller are certainly not exclusive to the LB 6's. I cut open a #7 Hevi one time after noticing all the little bitty holes in my pattern. There were pellet sizes all over the place in that shell, with some being # 9 or smaller.
no s%#€! Thats good to know. I never shot the hevi #7 because they dont make them in 10 gauge. But have shot the hevi #5 but never cut them open to look. I have cut opening HW #7 and they were slightly larger than the lead 7.5's I cut for comparison.
Quote from: highwaygun on March 11, 2014, 12:02:27 AM
Quote from: darn2ten on March 10, 2014, 11:49:04 PM
This is why I shoot #5's. Pellets being smaller are certainly not exclusive to the LB 6's. I cut open a #7 Hevi one time after noticing all the little bitty holes in my pattern. There were pellet sizes all over the place in that shell, with some being # 9 or smaller.
no s%#€! Thats good to know. I never shot the hevi #7 because they dont make them in 10 gauge. But have shot the hevi #5 but never cut them open to look. I have cut opening HW #7 and they were slightly larger than the lead 7.5's I cut for comparison.
Even if those HW #7's where a little smaller, they would still get the job done no problem. That HW is some pretty serious stuff.
Yes they are I will never shot anything else. My 10 gauge and the HW 7's are devastating for lack of a better word.
Great post. Great info. Thank you
Good write up. I think it proves what most of us knew already. The LB are a very good cheap lead shell out to 40 yards, but for total comparison, they are not in the same category as these high density Hevi or Winchester XR shells. To me you are comparing apples to oranges and asking the LB to do too much. They are both great at 40 yards and in, maybe even 45 for the LB's.
I feel the problems with LB's are going to arise when bird distances are misjudged which will result in more wounded birds. What makes heavier than lead loads shine is their down range killing ability on misjudged distances. I have killed birds over 40 yards and seen broken legs, wings, necks, you name it. I just don't think the LB's will provide that kind of killing energy consistency.
Nicely done!
Congratulations! That is an exceptionally well written post. It contains good information without expressing any bias or prejudice. A very fair test and evaluation.
Thanks,
Clark
Quote from: highwaygun on March 11, 2014, 12:02:27 AM
Quote from: darn2ten on March 10, 2014, 11:49:04 PM
This is why I shoot #5's. Pellets being smaller are certainly not exclusive to the LB 6's. I cut open a #7 Hevi one time after noticing all the little bitty holes in my pattern. There were pellet sizes all over the place in that shell, with some being # 9 or smaller.
no s%#€! Thats good to know. I never shot the hevi #7 because they dont make them in 10 gauge. But have shot the hevi #5 but never cut them open to look. I have cut opening HW #7 and they were slightly larger than the lead 7.5's I cut for comparison.
Remember Hevi#7 isn't the same as HW #7, HW #7 is 15.2 g/cc while Hevi#7 is only 12.0 g/cc density
Great information Skeeterbait. I appreciate your efforts.
Thank you. good to know info.
I believe the Winchester Extended Ranges are becoming available again...
I was kinda shocked when I weighed and Extended Range #4 pellet and a copper plated #4 lead pellet and the lead pellet weighed just a tad more.
But when put to the hammer/anvil test the Extended Range was harder....
I patterned my SX3 today with .665 choke, winchester supreme HV #5's and Long Beard #5's. I don't count holes but at 40 yards the long beard pattern was too tight for me to hunt with. The Supreme HV pattern was slightly larger and I feel had more margin for error while still maintaining a high percentage kill rate at 40 yards. It is the shell I have used since 1994. The Long Beards #5's shot about 6" low. If I ever run out of supreme HV, I will switch to Long Beards and a larger size choke, right now I don't see any reason to buy a new choke.
A very good/informative post. I noticed before when I cut a Hevi 6 shell open that the shell had what looked like 3 different sized pellets, similar to a true magnum blend. And man it can thump them. I have also noticed that with the same type shot (ex: lead or htl) the pellets one size larger penetrate a plywood board almost identically at 40. Is this due to the larger surface area of the pellet or is plywood just too much more dense than things such as a phone book for adequate testing?
Great review Skeeter.. Thank you