A questionnaire being sent out by the Missouri Department of Conservation is creating a little bit of a stir in the Show-Me state. Several questions are being asked of recent participants in the 2012 Spring Turkey Season. The two creating the most discussion concern extending shooting hours from the current 1 pm closure to allow all day hunting and the second regulation change deals with the possibility of having a week long early archery season.
As it now stands, Missouri closes at 1 pm and only allows the taking of one bird during the first week of the season. Any youth taking a bird during the youth season and anyone taking a bird during the first week must wait until the second Monday (season always opens on a Monday) of the season to take their second bird. The one bird/first week rule would apply for the archery season from what I can tell--I have already written my letter to the rules committee asking for a change for the youth season to allow successful kids to take their second bird during the first week of the regular season.
I will say that I am not a big fan of the MDC. Without going into much detail and this becoming a MDC bashing thread (which is not my intent), I will say it is my opinion that it is much more of a politicized organization than most Game Departments due to a 1/8 cent statewide sales tax appropriated to the MDC creating an over regulating huge government bureaucracy running the show.
I fully support the idea of all day hunting. I am not in favor of the early archery season. While a lot of folks cite the increased pressure as a factor for why they oppose it, and I agree that it will have an impact--especially on public ground--increased pressure is not why I oppose it.
I am not in favor of it mostly on the principle that I do not believe archery hunters need to have an early season. I have hunted in Kansas during the early archery season and would likely do it in Missouri as well, but I don't think we need it. If folks chase them with a bow for the increased challenge, then why would they need to have the advantage of an early season?
I also believe that coyotes will be the greatest beneficiary of an early archery season. I believe if most folks were honest they would admit there is a high wound rate here--Not necessarily for a lot of folks that I know who are deadly with a bow and live and breath turkey hunting. But I would argue they would be in the minority and there would be a lot of clueless goofs "feeding the coyotes".
At the least, it looks like turkey hunters in Missouri will have a lively debate to keep up their interest in the off season this year.
I would support several changes in Missouri, but an archery season is not one of them--I would be willing to compromise if they included a week long youth season to coincide with the archery season like they do in Kansas. Surely the bow hunters wouldn't mind extending their preferential treatment to kids?
One change at a time would be OK. Before they start messing with season start dates, I would like to see either the 1PM stop time dropped OR the one bird per day (one in the first week) limit dropped. Make one small change first, and then see how it affects public hunting for a few years.
Interesting, I was born and raised in MO and I never figured they would ever modify the season. A few years ago I email one of the turkey biologists about an early archery season and was told that it would put too much pressure on the birds. I think the week long archery season is a great idea and it should be the same as youth season. Only one weekend for youth can be tough, especially if weather does not cooperate.
As far as all day hunting, I could take it or leave it. I live in OK now and we can hunt all day and I have hunted in KS quite a bit, and only a couple of my birds have been taken in the evening. I am not sure that all day hunting would have a great impact on harvest totals.
It will be interesting to see what happens.
jb,
I agree that most folks will still hunt only morning and that is when most birds will be killed. I guess I just don't like being told that I can't go in the evening if I wanted to even on private property. Also, being a parent that shares custody, it would increase the opportunity to take my kids after school on the afternoon visitations I have during the week.
And, I would also be able to take a lot of my students who have an interest in hunting.
This is all news to me. I have not recieved this questionaire in the mail. For what it is worth I would be elated to have the opportunity to hunt all day. As for the early archery season, it would be cool if it was at the same time as youth season. I do agree with Hooksfan that bowhunters don't need an early season, but I would participate just for an extra week to hunt.
IMO opinion I see know reason why archery hunters should be granted an early season. The counties I hunt in Kentucky are already high pressure counties (Butler, Logan, and Ohio) and I would see no reason to add an early week of season for the minority group of hunters. If a person wants to use archery equipment use it during the 2-3 weeks of the regular season that everyone else is allowed. So if I lived in Missouri I would have to say no this proposal because I do not see it benefit the hunters in that state as a whole. In regards to the all day hunting, in Kentucky we use to have to quit at either noon or 1 pm, I can't recall. I will say this, I thought the hunting was better before we went to all day hunting by allowing the turkeys to do their thing in the evening unpressured. Granted, I have killed several turkeys in the evening but I still liked it betters when Kentucky did not have all day hunting. It seems like the gobbling activity went south and has steadily got worse every since the all day hunting took effect. Just my thoughts.
I really don't know why anyone would think an early archery season would hurt our population, how many turkey hunters do you actually know of that bowhunt anyway( (I'm the only one of any of my friends aquaintances that I even know of that does bowhunt them), and how many of them are as successful as the gun hunters? Not many. Also look at Nebraska and Kansas, both states have early archery seasons and have had them for awhile. Both states are now the "go to" turkey states that Missouri once was before we fell from grace. Again, the bowhunters don't seem to have much of an impact on populations. Just my thoughts. Oh, and I agree, the youth season should be MUCH longer than just a single measly weekend.
I'm in favor of all-day hunting primarily because that would allow kids to get into the turkey woods and not have to miss school. When I was raising my kids, it was a treat to get them into the woods (this was before youth season) on Opening Day and they got to miss up to an hour of class. If we want to grow the sport, we need to get the kids involved.
That being said, I don't think that the kids need a whole week of youth season. If you face reality, I'm sure that you know that a lot of the birds killed during "youth season" are actually killed by daddy and tagged by the 6 year old that can't even hold a shotgun up. Give them a week and I'm not sure how many will actually be able to take advantage of the lengthened youth season unless all day hunting is allowed.
Bow season? Yes, absolutely. Wouldn't bother me if the bow season was just the weekend of youth season. Maybe a couple of days prior to the regular season. It wouldn't even have to be a whole week. I tried bowhunting turkeys this past spring for the first time and I lasted until I heard a LOT of gobbling way off from where I'd placed my blind. Back to the truck, ditch the bow, grab the shotgun and GO. With a designated bow season I'd be more patient and perhaps accomplish what I consider to be a great hunting challenge.
Another question on the questionnaire involves crossbow hunting. I don't really have an opinion on crossbows.
One place that I have to express concern is why are we doing this now when we've had something like 5 years in a row with bad hatches. I believe that the 2011 hatch was up, but our population statewide is still down.
One point that I have to respectfully disagree with Hooksfan on is his opinion of the MDC. That 1/8 tax is what allows the department to be run by biologists instead of state-appointed flunkies (political appointees). As my uncle from Colorado, who is very involved with their wildlife programs, says, "The MDC is the envy of every other wildlife department in the nation because it's not run by politicians." That sales tax is specifically designated for wildlife and comes up for a vote of the public periodically. It's not appropriated from any other source.
What is the reasoning behind the "one bird a week" law?
Just curious
Quote from: barry on June 17, 2012, 03:14:19 PM
What is the reasoning behind the "one bird a week" law?
Just curious
That's a million dollar question right there. You will get a range of answers that generally point towards reducing the pressure of the birds for the first week and the 1 pm closure was to allow nesting hens to be undisturbed and allow the mushroom hunters safer access to the woods in the evening--I guess MDC programs "their" nesting turkey hens to be able to differentiate between turkey hunters and mushroom hunters and are not disturbed by the mushroom hunters.
A lot of folks believe it is also done to encourage non-residents to come during the second week when they can kill two birds, and allow the residents to have the first shot at them.
Turkey beard and I will have to respectfully disagree on the level of politics and control at play here. Of course Missouri is the envy of every other state agency--They all wish they had the money Missouri does. But....with that money comes a more powerful agency that will exercise more control that is just as indebted to the non hunting bird watching community as they are to the hunting folks because their revenue comes not only from hunting and fishing permits, but from the general public through the 1/8 cent sales tax.
I hope you guys give the youth an opportunity to hunt for a week.
They should have every chance to fill a tag and a week allows them a greater chance of doing so in the event the poor weather or conflicting schedules prevent them from hunting on one particular designated weekend.
I was responsible for multiple 8 year olds and 10 year olds pulling the trigger this spring. It can be done with relative ease if the necessary preparation is put into the hunt. I also tend to have a higher level of faith in humanity than to believe that a lot of dad's are wacking birds on youth day.
Only allowed to kill one bird in mo the first week? What a baseless, unsubstantiated, and arbitrary regulation.
I think getting youth in the woods in the afternoon after school is the best reason for all day hunting, no arguments here.
VaTurk, currently youth in MO get one weekend as youth season to themselves.
I really don't know about why the one bird for the first week came about. I think it came about when the season was only two weeks long and there were not many birds (1980s and early 90s). It is just one of those regs that has stuck around that we just had to deal with. I could see the rule staying around if it was a public land only rule. Being told you can only take one during the first week on the family farm is very annoying.
All day hunting in Missouri, it's about time. this way I can justify taking a whole day off from work. Also we have all had days when you get up to hunt in the morning and thunderstorms are rolling through for most of the day. I hope the MDC sends me one of these questionnaires
Quote from: jblackburn on June 17, 2012, 06:56:19 PM
...I really don't know about why the one bird for the first week came about. I think it came about when the season was only two weeks long and there were not many birds (1980s and early 90s)...
Indeed. I think it's just held over from the old two-week season when we could only shoot one bird during the first week and one during the second. They probably held onto the first week rule just to lighten pressure on public ground.
I for one have been telling anyone that would listen that a separate archery season would be most welcome here in MO. The public lands that I hunt are so overcrowded during the gun season that it has almost become scary to be in the woods. The ability to hunt all day would also help when you only get to hunt on your two days off in a week.It would double the amount of time that you could spend in the woods.
Well, not being from MO, or one who hunts there, I have no dog in this fight, but I'd like to throw my hat in the ring and just state my opinion on one topic you addressed in the original post. You stated that as bowhunting was about the challenge, that archers should not have a need for their own week of hunting. Well, according to that logic, we could apply that to each state's deer season and tell archers to just hunt with bows during the firearms season and eliminate all early archery seasons. I doubt you'll sell that idea to very many folks. Archery brings it's own unique set of challenges aside from having to share the woods with gun hunters. A comparison of any state's archery vs firearm harvest success ratios will be largely skewed toward the gun hunters, regardless of species hunted. One week for them to enjoy the woods without folks blasting birds off the roost isnt too much to ask, imo. Keep in mind that bowhunters represent a huge and vocal faction of the hunting community. :)
Comparing archery deer and archery turkey is not a good comparison, IMO, and that is where the folks who are worried about the pressure have a great point. Archery deer hunters are not using run and gun (bow) methods and constantly calling and bumping the deer. I realize many will hunt from blinds, but I can guarantee you there will be a bunch of folks rambling through the woods calling that don't stand a chance getting drawn on one. I'd bet most of the turkey hunters on here would get fighting mad if they ran into someone on public land calling to the birds before season--I believe it would have the same effect. Besides deer are....well....stoopid.
Besides, we already have an archery turkey season in Missouri that runs from Sept 15-Jan 15 in which hunters are issued two archery tags with their fall deer archery tags. Is 4 months not enough to have a special archery season?
The crowd that doesn't bowhunt are always the ones that say "All the birds will be educated and it will make it harder for me to kill one in the gun season". If you just look at the success rates for the two states that are close to MO, KS and NE you will see that the firearm success hasn't gone down since they started a separate archery only season but has actually gone up. If MO counts the archery kill as the first bird and not let us hunt the first week of gun season then there would actually be less crowding for the gun hunters and maybe a more satisfying hunt for them also.
Got my survey filled out and sent back...We have made a yearly trek to hunt Missouri for the past 5 seasons and are very glad to see the MDC want hunter input.
I am 100% for all day hunting. That is one way the state can be sure they continue to receive our money. With the decreasing hunting quality on the public land we hunt, we have discussed several times heading to other states simply for the fact we could get more time to hunt. The hardcore turkey hunters will use the afternoons to their advantage while the majority will be sitting at home.
As far as the early archery season, I really have no opinion. On one hand, I wouldn't want people messing with the birds before gun hunters get a chance. But then again, with the one bird limit the first week, it could create less pressure the first week of gun.. I know some people with limited time to hunt may take their trip to Missouri to try and take advantage of the early bow season rather than hunt the the first week of gun as they normally do. And success is going to be less with a bow, so.... There won't be much harm at all done..
I'd be interested to see what effect diminishing the 1 bird the first week rule would have on hunting pressure. I know a lot of non-residents plan their trip to start hunting the very end of the first week because of the rule..If that rule is diminished, I imagine opening week pressure would be absolutely RIDICULOUS on public land. I'd personally like to see the rule stay. But this is just a non-resident's opinion.
IL. did the same thing a few years back but no regulations have changed yet. Do you know if they sent out questionaires when they changed the archery season in 2004 or the fall shotgun turkey season in 2005 ?
If a special archery season is wanted, make it the week following the close of the regular gun season.
Well I called the MDC today to request a questionnaire. Nobody called me back. If you want to call, the number is (573)884-6861
I don't see why, with having some of the best turkey hunting in the nation, Missouri would want to change their turkey season. I hunt Missouri public and private and I wouldn't change a thing about the season. Why are people always trying to "fix" something?
Quote from: gmbellew on June 18, 2012, 09:10:28 PM
I don't see why, with having some of the best turkey hunting in the nation, Missouri would want to change their turkey season. I hunt Missouri public and private and I wouldn't change a thing about the season. Why are people always trying to "fix" something?
Probably 'cause more and more people are skipping over Missouri and going to Kansas where they can hunt all day long...for twice as many days...and possibly tag out in one day...for nearly half the price.
Quote from: stinkpickle on June 18, 2012, 10:25:44 PM
Quote from: gmbellew on June 18, 2012, 09:10:28 PM
I don't see why, with having some of the best turkey hunting in the nation, Missouri would want to change their turkey season. I hunt Missouri public and private and I wouldn't change a thing about the season. Why are people always trying to "fix" something?
Probably 'cause more and more people are skipping over Missouri and going to Kansas where they can hunt all day long...for twice as many days...and possibly tag out in one day...for nearly half the price.
Let them go. Comparing Kansas to Missouri turkey hunting is apples to oranges. I hunt Kansas also, so I have some experience in both states.
I hunted Missouri for almost 20 years, but haven't been back since 2009. MDC kept increasing the non-resident license fee to the point where I said enough is enough. I might consider going back if they allowed all day hunting, but $200 to hunt public ground for a handfull of days is a little too much. :character0029:
Quote from: gmbellew on June 18, 2012, 11:39:42 PM
Quote from: stinkpickle on June 18, 2012, 10:25:44 PM
Quote from: gmbellew on June 18, 2012, 09:10:28 PM
I don't see why, with having some of the best turkey hunting in the nation, Missouri would want to change their turkey season. I hunt Missouri public and private and I wouldn't change a thing about the season. Why are people always trying to "fix" something?
Probably 'cause more and more people are skipping over Missouri and going to Kansas where they can hunt all day long...for twice as many days...and possibly tag out in one day...for nearly half the price.
Let them go. Comparing Kansas to Missouri turkey hunting is apples to oranges. I hunt Kansas also, so I have some experience in both states.
Same here. Depending on where you hunt in both states determines which state is the apple and which state is the orange. ;)
Quote from: Hooksfan on June 17, 2012, 09:35:56 AM
I fully support the idea of all day hunting. I am not in favor of the early archery season. While a lot of folks cite the increased pressure as a factor for why they oppose it, and I agree that it will have an impact--especially on public ground--increased pressure is not why I oppose it.
I am not in favor of it mostly on the principle that I do not believe archery hunters need to have an early season. I have hunted in Kansas during the early archery season and would likely do it in Missouri as well, but I don't think we need it. If folks chase them with a bow for the increased challenge, then why would they need to have the advantage of an early season?
I also believe that coyotes will be the greatest beneficiary of an early archery season. I believe if most folks were honest they would admit there is a high wound rate here--Not necessarily for a lot of folks that I know who are deadly with a bow and live and breath turkey hunting. But I would argue they would be in the minority and there would be a lot of clueless goofs "feeding the coyotes".
At the least, it looks like turkey hunters in Missouri will have a lively debate to keep up their interest in the off season this year.
I have hunted many of the states early bow season only for turkey and personally welcome and praise the idea of an early bow season in any state!
One thing I have noticed in my travels of the early bow season is many of the farmers and ranchers I have met are more eager to grant permission to hunt when they see that I am hunting gobblers with a bow instead of gun. Many of those landowners are surprised that someone would take on the extra challenge when so many fail to harvest with even a gun.
You don't seem to like bow hunters for some reason from what I read in your above comments as you are extremely eager to point fingers and call names.
Although I agree there are some who are not proficient with their choice of archery weaponry I will say I have seen just as many or more who hunt turkey with their choice of firearm/load that made me shake my head as much or even more as they think they now have the super duper full proof extra long range new load!
It is only a selfish hunter looking out for his own particular way of hunting turkey that would go against adding an early bow season. I hunt pressured turkey every year in many places with my home state of IL being a prime example as we have 5 continuous seasons and a lottery drawing for both county & season specific permits with a chance at 3 permits being able to be drawn if successful.
Our birds see a longer hunting season than MO but you know as well as I do the fifth week can be as good as the first in any given area depending on many circumstances.
If you think MO has it rough just look at IL regs sometime... I would gladly go from being able to kill 3 birds with our lottery county and season specific system to an over the counter tag purchase 3-4 week statewide 2 bird limit with an early archery season like many states have.
If you want to complain about something that makes for educating your birds I think the taking of only one bird the first week would be a better argument as I have seen many times where a guy could be limited out with his two birds in one set up and out of the woods for the rest of the season.
Instead the sibling gobbler wathces his brother get shot and many times gets educated to calling, decoys etc in short order and is now perhaps more difficult to call in the next time... That same hunter is now spending more days in the woods walking and calling putting pressure on and "educating" birds.....
I will put this argument in the
"Hate to accept change" category! As an example IL bowhunters will soon be sharing the 2nd half of archery season (prime rut) with the crossbow hunters of all ages. Some are having a problem with accepting crossbows. I personally don't use one but will not hate on someone who does..
I know Ohio turns out some dandy bucks just like IL and they have had crossbows allowed for years during the regular archery season. My point is there were many Ohio hunters who at first hated the addition of crossbows and thought it would be the ruination of their deer hunting. Here we are years later and it is as good or better than ever...
I see the same thing happening with turkey hunting as the early archery season would not even be given a second thought after a couple of years of it being implemented into the program..
:anim_25: Turkey hunting to all.....
Very well said GSLAM95. I couldn't agree with you more.
This is likely to be a long reply. I am a native of Southwest Missouri, lived here my entire life. I saw my first wild turkey circa 1974, and began chasing them in 1977. In those days, the season was two weeks, with a limit of one bird per week, meaning if you didn't fill the first week's tag, it was no longer valid. The MDC took a very conservative approach to the season and limits, and with good reason, as birds had been absent from much of the state for 50 years, and had to be restocked. Our flock was still growing, and the idea was to provide hunting opportunities while still ensuring the growth and expansion of the fledgling flock.
Some time around 1980, or perhaps before, a fall season was added in select counties. The first few years, there was substantial interest, but it rapidly diminished while the popularity of spring hunting increased dramatically, much as it has across the nation. Eventually, another week was added to the spring season in the late 90's. There were many then who were sure the sky was falling. The harvest did increase rather substantially by, if my memory serves me correctly, approximately 10,000 birds over the previous year, but instead of the hunting getting worse, it kept getting better until around 2004 or 2005 when it hit a peak, and Missouri was arguably "the place to go" when it came to turkey hunting. All the while, the MDC kept the regulations on the conservative side, keeping the 1 bird the first week rule in effect, along with closing at 1:00 daylight time, and the relatively short three week season.
Then came the reality check. Several years of poor hatches and heavy spring flooding caused significant reductions in the population, and we all came to the realization events in the natural world that we can't control have more to do with the number of critters running around than anything we can control, such as whether or not you can hunt in the afternoon. Someone mentioned Kansas as being the "go to" place now. If you think that is true, try a little hunting in SE Kansas. I started hunting Kansas in the early 90's, always in the SE portion of the state, due to the proximity of my home, and the hunting was phenomenal, even on public land. You didn't even get too excited if you messed up an opportunity to bag a bird, because all you had to do was go down the road a mile or two, and you would likely get on another in short order. Then, about six years ago, super heavy rains, as much as 15 inches or so overnight, absolutely devastated the flock.
I haven't seen the questionairre mentioned in the original post, but I did particpate in one such survey by the MDC several years ago, probably in the late 1980's, or early 1990's. I've thought about that survey many times since then, and realize now that the results were likely skewed very much toward the way of thinking of whomever was in charge of turkey biology at that time. I can't recall the exact questions, but for example, they were like, "would you rather have a 2 bird limit and a better chance at a mature gobbler, or a greater bag limit with reduced opportunities to bag a mature bird?" Well, hell, everybody wants a mature bird. Right? It was the same with the other questions, each reply other than the "preferred" response to issues like all day hunting was given a negative connotation.
So, here we are in 2012, still stuck with the "one bird the first week" regulation, which, in my opinion, outlived its usefulness about 20 years ago. Sure it means there are fewer hunters in woods the second day of the season than there are the first, and even fewer the third, and so on, until the weekend, when everyone and their uncle shows up from other states, because who is going to get here opening day and potentially set around the rest of the week, unable to hunt? If, however, we stayed with a one bird per day limit that first week instead, a goodly portion of those fellows would be back at the house by the first weekend, effectively reducing the hunting pressure.
As for the 1/2 day hunting, it doesn't effect me personally all that much now that I am retired and can go virtually every morning if I so desire, but I am in favor of all day hunting. I think it would be similar to the adding the additional week 15 or so years ago. The harvest would likely increase, but would level off after the first year. I have a feeling if we could see a computer readout over the years of successful hunters who tagged out, the same names would be there virtually every year. In other words, I suspect the same hunters have a tendency to bag their two birds every year, meaning they aren't going to kill any more just because of more opportunities afield. What it would do is increase the opportunities for many who now don't get to hunt very much or at all, and the increased harvest would likely come from these individuals. What I feel is ironic is how conservative the MDC's approach to the spring season is, supposedly to prevent overharvest, when all the while, they have liberalized regulations for the not so popular fall season, which is now up to a full month in length, you can hunt all day, and you can kill two birds on a single day. They have even reduced the tag price rather substantially for the fall season. This makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever.
As for an early archery season, I don't bowhunt at all anymore, so it wouldn't benefit me directly, but I also don't feel it would be all that detrimental to gun hunting either, and I would support one as long as the bag limit is shared. As to whether one is "needed" or not, I don't know, but I believe the thinking is the additional harvest would be minimal.
In my dream world, Missouri would go to a 30 day spring season while allowing all-day hunting, and would institute a 3 bird annual bag limit, which would include not only the spring but fall firearm and archery seasons as well. In theory now, one can legally bag 6 birds between all the seasons, and 4 of them can be hens. Going to a 3 bird annual limit would allow people like myself, who have little or no interest in the fall seasons, the opportunity to do more hunting in the spring here at home.
I've been following this thread (and, thanks, Hooksfan, for the 2 of us being civil! Computer communication can take weird turns by mistake) and I feel that Neill_Prater has hit the nail on the head. I even remember Tom Kelly writing about moving Alabama's fall season so that it butted up against the spring season and thought that it might have merit. He said that the birds would be bigger, it would be easier to identify jakes from hens/jennies, it would protect the turkeys from the folks who killed one while deer hunting (you would have to specifically be TURKEY hunting, not deer hunting & plug a bird), and probably a few other points. If we did that in Missouri, we'd start hunting them in mid-March (the 1 month "fall" season) and roll right into early May. Interesting proposal but not one I'd embrace right now. Again, Neill_Prater sums up the whole debate well from where I stand.
Turkeybeard,
I'm glad we both understand that we are both just simply stating our opinions--No reason to be uncivil unless I believed no one else was entitled to an opinion other than me.
Neil,
Your dream scenario for a turkey season in Missouri is nearly identical to mine. Can't say that I can find a good argument against any of your ideas.
GSlam
Never did say I was anti-archery--Thought I had covered that when I said I had participated in the early Kansas archery season. It just doesn't make sense to me to accept a greater challenge and then seek regulations that would reduce that challenge by having first shot at unpressured birds. No one is arguing against archery hunting here--just preferential treatment.
And like I said, not trying to be uncivil in any way, have a special archery season the week following the close of the firearm season. Sometimes that could be the best hunting anyways and the majority (which are the hunters using fireams) might accept the idea better of having a spring turkey archery season if they got first chance at the turkeys. Just an idea. ;)
Quote from: Hooksfan on June 24, 2012, 08:38:39 PM
GSlam
Never did say I was anti-archery--Thought I had covered that when I said I had participated in the early Kansas archery season. It just doesn't make sense to me to accept a greater challenge and then seek regulations that would reduce that challenge by having first shot at unpressured birds. No one is arguing against archery hunting here--just preferential treatment.
You took advantage/"first shot" of the early archery season in Kansas yet you don't feel the need for one in MO. You admitted that archery hunting turkeys is more of a difficult challenge than with firearm so why would you be against giving them an extra
"preferential treatment" week to fill their tag if they get less shot opportunities per hunt?
Quote from: Hooksfan on June 17, 2012, 09:35:56 AMI am not in favor of the early archery season. While a lot of folks cite the increased pressure as a factor for why they oppose it, and I agree that it will have an impact--especially on public ground--increased pressure is not why I oppose it.
I am not in favor of it mostly on the principle that I do not believe archery hunters need to have an early season. I have hunted in Kansas during the early archery season and would likely do it in Missouri as well, but I don't think we need it. If folks chase them with a bow for the increased challenge, then why would they need to have the advantage of an early season?
If you bow hunt spring gobblers or have in the past then you know there are usually quite fewer shot opportunities compared to hunting with a gun. With it being agreed upon that archery is more difficult I don't understand the reasoning for wanting to go against the early archery season. Pure greed, selfishness or disrespect to archery hunters is the only reason I could see one being against giving them the extra week of opportunity.
Perhaps some hunters disliked change in Kansas & Nebraska as well but it appears to be working fine there and it could in many other states as well. As I mentioned earlier, some just simply will be against change no matter what it is as they are just so used to seeing it be one certain way for years on end..
Remember when you pointed out in your first post what you thought of most bowhunters?
Quote from: Hooksfan on June 17, 2012, 09:35:56 AMI also believe that coyotes will be the greatest beneficiary of an early archery season. I believe if most folks were honest they would admit there is a high wound rate here--Not necessarily for a lot of folks that I know who are deadly with a bow and live and breath turkey hunting. But I would argue they would be in the minority and there would be a lot of clueless goofs "feeding the coyotes".
Your labeling the average archery turkey hunter as a "clueless goof" unless he is a person you know in the above statement, that is what led to my
opinion. To me it show's an overall dislike to the archery turkey hunter.
I was strictly bow for many years but as I mentioned earlier I like firearm hunting as well and would welcome the extended opportunity of an early archery seson.
Your only basis for disliking the proposed early archery season holds no merit with me as it appears to be more of jealous greed for keeping a group that you show overall dislike and unapproval of out of the woods before the gun hunters.
Perhaps I am reading into your post wrong but I can only go by what is typed. I don't see any uncivil conversation as you mentioned either other than you calling bowhunters "clueless goofs"! As you stated though everyone is entitled their opinion on the subject matter at hand.
It is somewhat strange to me that if one is agreeing with the way you feel on the subject it is an "opinion" but if we point out the name calling or labeling of a group and give a different opinion of what should be done in regards to the proposed early archery turkey season we are being "uncivil".
I am another one with a "no dog in this fight" mentality about it. I think the all day hunting question is a no-brainer. That is an anitiquated regulation that has no basis in biological reasoning,...and should be done away with.
The question of allowing a segment of the public the opportunity to hunt before another is a different matter altogether, and is a bit more complicated. I think that most of us would agree that allowing kids the opportunity to get the first chance at game is one thing. However, there are obviously varying opinions here about allowing adults, because they make a choice to use a certain kind of weapon type, that same privilege.
It could legitimately be argued that a really good archer, sitting in an enclosed blind using decoys to attract gobblers to point-blank range, and with little or no chance of being seen, may be just as effective at killing turkeys as a shotgunner. Maybe even moreso than a gun hunter who chooses to hunt turkeys with no blind or decoys.
So do the shotgunners without a pop-up blind or decoys deserve a set-aside season for themselves? ...And if so, then what about the guys that decide they want to use a pellet gun, slingshot, spear, or throw rocks?
That argument, in and of itself, is not enough for me, though. Adding it to the fact that spring gobbler hunting is, at its basis, all about calling,....and that the more "experiences" a gobbler has with people calling to them the more difficult they become to call (except, of course, for those "turkey whisperers" we have here as members), then the combination of the two arguments begins to get some traction. If you allow certain hunters to go out and call and/or decoy turkeys for a length of time before the others, at what point in the "turkey education" process does that go from being a reasonable advantage because of a weapons choice to being unfair to the remaining groups of hunters?
After all, spring gobbler hunting is about a hunter(s) attracting a gobbler(s) by calling, or decoying, (or waiting). For me, getting the turkey to come is the attraction, not the weapon choice.
So the question ultimately becomes,...."Is it fair to give one group of hunters an advantage over another group solely on the basis of a weapons choice,...and knowing that giving the one group an advantage may, in essence, decrease the chances of success of the other group when their turn comes?" ....Or is the proper course of action to say,..."Everybody plays by the same rules,...choose your weapon and go get in the game?".....
With the synopsis you just gave GobbleNut ask yourself why more states are considering allowing an early bow season for turkey & why does every state DNR out there give bowhunters an earlier season and usually a longer season than the gun season for other big game such as elk, deer etc.?
Why...... Because it is more difficult to get an animal within bow range rather than gun range. The chances of success are less than that of a gun... Look at any statistics from any DNR throughout the country...
There is no doubt that bowhunting, in the majority of cases, is more difficult than an equivalent hunt with a gun. However, the reasons for hunting season lengths, weapons restrictions, and hunt timing are many and vary with different game types and the corresponding biologies of those game species, as well as the varying attitudes of game managers and the hunting public in each state.
I have no problem with states establishing archery hunts prior to gun hunts as long as everybody involved realizes and accepts the notion that if enough people participate in those hunts, they are very likely to affect the quality of the hunting for those that come after them,...at least in public-lands hunting situations.
How would you feel about having the hunt such that bow or gun hunters could hunt the first week, and then the second week would be reserved only for bowhunters? Would that be satisfactory? ...And if not, why not?
Quote from: GobbleNut on June 25, 2012, 09:21:03 PM
How would you feel about having the hunt such that bow or gun hunters could hunt the first week, and then the second week would be reserved only for bowhunters? Would that be satisfactory? ...And if not, why not?
From what I am reading in several post the obvious comes out more with each post. It is the gun hunters that can not stand it that a person with a lesser weapon get first crack at those spring gobblers. It was the same scenario with many species of big game across the country in years past.
Personally I don't care what week they add for bowhunting as long it adds another week into the season. The obvious is to make the season start a week earlier as many other states have found it to be more productive than later. How many of you will complain about having to hunt henned up flocks if it happened to be the case?
Another piece of public information for some who may not know, MO has already been implementing an archery only week for many years the first week of the season at the Caney Mountain conservation area and other places in MO.
I hunted there myself this 2012 spring season and talked to several of the workers there. I think they would attest to the success the program has had in the park as gun hunters have a great success ratio the second and third week of the season.
Quote from: GobbleNut on June 25, 2012, 05:36:47 PM
I am another one with a "no dog in this fight" mentality about it. I think the all day hunting question is a no-brainer. That is an anitiquated regulation that has no basis in biological reasoning,...and should be done away with.
The question of allowing a segment of the public the opportunity to hunt before another is a different matter altogether, and is a bit more complicated. I think that most of us would agree that allowing kids the opportunity to get the first chance at game is one thing. However, there are obviously varying opinions here about allowing adults, because they make a choice to use a certain kind of weapon type, that same privilege.
It could legitimately be argued that a really good archer, sitting in an enclosed blind using decoys to attract gobblers to point-blank range, and with little or no chance of being seen, may be just as effective at killing turkeys as a shotgunner. Maybe even moreso than a gun hunter who chooses to hunt turkeys with no blind or decoys.
So do the shotgunners without a pop-up blind or decoys deserve a set-aside season for themselves? ...And if so, then what about the guys that decide they want to use a pellet gun, slingshot, spear, or throw rocks?
That argument, in and of itself, is not enough for me, though. Adding it to the fact that spring gobbler hunting is, at its basis, all about calling,....and that the more "experiences" a gobbler has with people calling to them the more difficult they become to call (except, of course, for those "turkey whisperers" we have here as members), then the combination of the two arguments begins to get some traction. If you allow certain hunters to go out and call and/or decoy turkeys for a length of time before the others, at what point in the "turkey education" process does that go from being a reasonable advantage because of a weapons choice to being unfair to the remaining groups of hunters?
After all, spring gobbler hunting is about a hunter(s) attracting a gobbler(s) by calling, or decoying, (or waiting). For me, getting the turkey to come is the attraction, not the weapon choice.
So the question ultimately becomes,...."Is it fair to give one group of hunters an advantage over another group solely on the basis of a weapons choice,...and knowing that giving the one group an advantage may, in essence, decrease the chances of success of the other group when their turn comes?" ....Or is the proper course of action to say,..."Everybody plays by the same rules,...choose your weapon and go get in the game?".....
By far the best post in this thread :z-winnersmiley:
GSlam,
Either I'm sending a fuzzy signal or you are getting a fuzzy reception, because we have totally managed to misunderstand each other. I am NOT anti-archery--Two of the three biggest bucks I have ever killed were with a bow and I have participated in other states early turkey archery seasons and would participate in a Missouri Spring archery season if they had one. I just don't think it is fair to pick one group and grant an early season.
I refer to alot of folks as clueless goofs because they are.....ummmm clueless goofs. Just because you put a bow in a clueless goofs hands doesn't mean he has metamorphosed out of his clueless goofness. Granted, there are probably a higher percentage of clueless goofs running around with shotguns.
The weapon of choice does not create a clueless goof. The clueless goof creates the clueless goof.
I know and hunt with several folks that are more deadly with a bow than most folks will ever become with a shotgun. These folks are going to get it done with or without a special early season--They don't need one.
My stand is that bow hunting turkeys should be reserved for folks that have reached a point of proficiency that they can do it with as much or more precision than folks blasting them with shotguns.
My opinion is that an early archery season will result in many people who have not reached that point of proficiency (clueless goofs) chasing them around and, yes, wounding alot of birds---Way higher percentage than those wounded with shotguns.
Also, my opinion is that a comparison of deer hunting Fall early archery seasons and Spring early season for turkeys is not a good comparison.
Neither is comparing Kansas and Nebraska to Missouri simply because of the human and turkey population dynamics at play--And that is where the folks who make an argument about the extra pressure have a valid point.
Quote from: GSLAM95 on June 25, 2012, 10:53:19 PM
Quote from: GobbleNut on June 25, 2012, 09:21:03 PM
Another piece of public information for some who may not know, MO has already been implementing an archery only week for many years the first week of the season at the Caney Mountain conservation area and other places in MO.
I hunted there myself this 2012 spring season and talked to several of the workers there. I think they would attest to the success the program has had in the park as gun hunters have a great success ratio the second and third week of the season.
GS, I hadn't heard of this. Are you saying that it's bow only during the existing week 1 and then existing rules during week 2 & 3 or are you saying that they've opened an additional week for bows only on these places? Thanks.
Quote from: Hooksfan on June 17, 2012, 10:50:01 AM
jb,
I agree that most folks will still hunt only morning and that is when most birds will be killed. I guess I just don't like being told that I can't go in the evening if I wanted to even on private property. Also, being a parent that shares custody, it would increase the opportunity to take my kids after school on the afternoon visitations I have during the week.
And, I would also be able to take a lot of my students who have an interest in hunting.
That's the whole story right there. For those that can hunt early good. For those that can't, you are screwed. If I pay good money to hunt out of state in Missouri, quitting at 1 pm isn't a turn on, so I don't out of state, unless it's an all day deal. I might not shoot a bunch after 1, but many times have set up my hunt for the following day, but what I see from 1pm-dark.
Not to make enemies here, but GSLAM95 I am not for an early archery season in any state, including my own state of Kentucky or Missouri, since I hunt it also. I do not think the matter is gun hunters against archery hunters here as much to me as it is catering to a minority of hunters that CHOOSE to use archery equipment. Turkey hunting cannot be compared to deer hunting in my opinion because of the different stages of archery deerhunting (pre-rut, rut, and post rut) and all the stages have their unique ways to pursue the game. Turkey hunting basically consists of a three to four week window, at the most, when the hunting is at its best. I see no reason why a minority of hunters who CHOOSE to use a certain type of weapon should be granted any extra priveledge for that matter. Where I hunt at the turkeys are already heavily pressured enough right now without adding an extra week (or however much time would be allowed) of pressure. Keeps getting tougher every year to tag out on longbeards. I am not against archery hunting because I probably bowhunt whitetails as much or more than anybody myself. I just hope KY never brings this proposal to the table.
The down side to an early archery season is the fact that the woods will be crowded with non bow hunters with bow and arrows. It's just an invite for unskilled people who have no business trying to kill an animal with a bow to sling arrows. I'd have no problem letting bow hunters get a week head start if you could keep the one week a year bow hunters out of the woods. You know the ones who would shoot Friday afternoon before season opens, then hunt for a week and put their bow back in the closet for 51 weeks.
Quote from: guesswho on June 26, 2012, 05:30:06 PM
The down side to an early archery season is the fact that the woods will be crowded with non bow hunters with bow and arrows. It's just an invite for unskilled people who have no business trying to kill an animal with a bow to sling arrows. I'd have no problem letting bow hunters get a week head start if you could keep the one week a year bow hunters out of the woods. You know the ones who would shoot Friday afternoon before season opens, then hunt for a week and put their bow back in the closet for 51 weeks.
That is my sentiments exactly!! Except you didn't call em clueless goofs :toothy12:
Quote from: guesswho on June 26, 2012, 05:30:06 PM
The down side to an early archery season is the fact that the woods will be crowded with non bow hunters with bow and arrows. It's just an invite for unskilled people who have no business trying to kill an animal with a bow to sling arrows. I'd have no problem letting bow hunters get a week head start if you could keep the one week a year bow hunters out of the woods. You know the ones who would shoot Friday afternoon before season opens, then hunt for a week and put their bow back in the closet for 51 weeks.
That'd be me! If they make a turkey season for a specific weapon only, I'll use that sumbeech. Besides, it's getting harder and harder for me to convince the MDC that I'm young enough for a youth tag, too. :D
Quote from: GobbleNut on June 25, 2012, 05:36:47 PM
I am another one with a "no dog in this fight" mentality about it. I think the all day hunting question is a no-brainer. That is an anitiquated regulation that has no basis in biological reasoning,...and should be done away with.
The question of allowing a segment of the public the opportunity to hunt before another is a different matter altogether, and is a bit more complicated. I think that most of us would agree that allowing kids the opportunity to get the first chance at game is one thing. However, there are obviously varying opinions here about allowing adults, because they make a choice to use a certain kind of weapon type, that same privilege.
It could legitimately be argued that a really good archer, sitting in an enclosed blind using decoys to attract gobblers to point-blank range, and with little or no chance of being seen, may be just as effective at killing turkeys as a shotgunner. Maybe even moreso than a gun hunter who chooses to hunt turkeys with no blind or decoys.
So do the shotgunners without a pop-up blind or decoys deserve a set-aside season for themselves? ...And if so, then what about the guys that decide they want to use a pellet gun, slingshot, spear, or throw rocks?
That argument, in and of itself, is not enough for me, though. Adding it to the fact that spring gobbler hunting is, at its basis, all about calling,....and that the more "experiences" a gobbler has with people calling to them the more difficult they become to call (except, of course, for those "turkey whisperers" we have here as members), then the combination of the two arguments begins to get some traction. If you allow certain hunters to go out and call and/or decoy turkeys for a length of time before the others, at what point in the "turkey education" process does that go from being a reasonable advantage because of a weapons choice to being unfair to the remaining groups of hunters?
After all, spring gobbler hunting is about a hunter(s) attracting a gobbler(s) by calling, or decoying, (or waiting). For me, getting the turkey to come is the attraction, not the weapon choice.
So the question ultimately becomes,...."Is it fair to give one group of hunters an advantage over another group solely on the basis of a weapons choice,...and knowing that giving the one group an advantage may, in essence, decrease the chances of success of the other group when their turn comes?" ....Or is the proper course of action to say,..."Everybody plays by the same rules,...choose your weapon and go get in the game?".....
Very well said. I like the way you think. Neill
This is an interesting debate. In my opinion, comparing early/extended archery seasons for deer to spring turkey hunting is definitely a case of apples to oranges. An early archery season for spring turkey (or pre-season if you will), is different in that it if you don't tag out, you can simply wait until you can take a gun and go a hunting with ol' Betsy.
For those who love the challenge of archery hunting, why not a 3 week season prior to the 3 week gun season? It would be an either/or situation, where you would have the choice of purchasing either an archery permit, or a firearms permit, but not both. That, I think, would be fair to all parties.