Just heard about this...
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2011/08/obama-justice-department-shuts-down-gibson-guitar-for-breaking-indian-law-video/ (http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2011/08/obama-justice-department-shuts-down-gibson-guitar-for-breaking-indian-law-video/)
Here's the way our current administration "saves" or "creates" jobs. Eric Holder and the department of justice have shut down Gibson guitars, sending workers home while they examine claims that Gibson broke laws in India by importing unfinished wood for use in their guitars. Interesting is the fact that the owner of Gibson guitars has donated funds to republican causes and Tennessee is not a forced union labor state.
I heard about that...stupid stuff. I think I'll order my next custom guitar with the endangered Indian Ebony wood (stained with baby seal blood, of course) with California Condor beak inlays.
Note to callmakers... if you have any ebony or rosewood from ebony, you better get rid of it before big brother tracks you down and takes everything you own.... ::)
I heard an interview with the CEO of Gibson on the radio today. He said the wood was certified by the appropriate officials in India, is the same wood they have used for fingerboards for well over a decade and is the same material used by other guitar makers across the country.
What a crock. Pretty soon Gibson will have to move its entire facility to India to save money because of the BS environmental fines put against them...causing more american jobs to be lost, but creating some new Indian ones.
Our governement needs to get handled.
Our economy is on unstable ground, we still have many fine young men and women overseas waging the war on terror and trying to keep our great country safe from terrorist punks who have nothing better to do than to attack innocent people and yet the Obama administration has nothing better to do than pick a fight with Gibson guitars. Give me a freakin break! The obama administration is a joke. You would think what kind of wood gibson uses on it's guitars wouldn't really be much of a priority to our government, but I guess they feel like the have to be involved in EVERY aspect of our lives.
By the way, I bet ol' Mr. Ted Nugent is just a little bit angry considering Gibson is what he has played for years. I would love to hear his take on it. ;D
WOW, I still think he is working on his dictatorship. We need change from the change.
I still think he is an under cover terrorist....groomed by terrorist to live among us and carry that big cheshire cat grin. They cant beat us physically, so they groomed one of their own to mingle amongst us and to get into government and run it so we destroy ourselves.
He has got to go and quick like. We wont survive if he somehow gets a second term.
That was not Gibson's first entanglement with USFWS on CITES issues. They've been raided before, and I believe that it happened under the Bush Admin too. The feds will raid on other stuff covered by CITES as well, such as live pets, hides, heads, and other body parts.
The yankee that runs Korg, which includes Gibson, is a prickly individual. He bought the company and moved it out of Kalamazoo, MI and took it to Nashville. It really has never been Gibson since then. I know a bunch of people that have worked for Gibson in N'ville in varying capacities, a lot of entertainment hopefuls do at least one hitch there, thinking how great it would be to work in the guitar business. Most cannot get away from there fast enough. One guy I know was in sales and had to deal with the head jerk and other senior management, and he is now a youth counselor for a big church and has nothing good to say about Gibson or its management integrity and ethics. Korg is abusive of dealers and consumers as well. I won't buy from them, and would buy a Heritage, made by former employees of the real Gibson in Kalamazoo before I would buy the overpriced wares of Korg.
A lot of people face the prospect of getting hurt because of it and I lament that in light of this bad economy, but I will shed no tears for Henry the poletard or the corporation.
Henry the jerk and Gibson gained additional notoriety for its suit against PRS for using the shape of a Les Paul body in the PRS single-cut line. It was always considered that the headstock was part of trade dress and was protected under trademark law, but not the body shape. Korg bought Valley Arts, which had a tech named Joe Glaser in Nashville replicate Brent Mason's old 1968 Telecaster and slightly change the headstock to avoid a conflict with Fender's eighth note style. It made no changes to the body in that instance, whereas PRS stylized the body of its single cut line by adding beveling (or scalloping). Only a complete idiot would confuse a PRS sc with a Gibson Les Paul. Nonetheless, Gibson pushed the case hard because it wants to crush the smaller, higher quality competitor. The idjit district court in Nashville ruled in Gibson's favor and PRS finally prevailed on an appeal to the Sixth Circuit.
The USFWS may be proven wrong, but I'll expend no time on sympathy for Korg/Gibson. It's nothing but karma coming back to bite Henry the jerk.
What a shame! Just one more instance of Obamunism tearing our country apart.
I don't have any business or personal dealings with Gibson, so I have no personal or business interest in their success or downfall. My concern is with a government entity shutting down a privately owned business, confiscating materials that have been certified by the country of origin (over a million dollars worth of materials) and turning the company's employees out on the streets with no idea of when they would return for work.
I can't comment on the business practices of Gibson, its family of companies or its management/ownership. I don't understand, however, how in an economic situation as our country is in, our government can justify putting people out of work and reducing a company's potential of earnings.
An interesting little twist in the story is that Michelle Obama purchased a custom Gibson guitar and presented it to the "first lady" of France. http://www.gibson.com/en-us/Lifestyle/News/Michelle-Obama-French-406/ (http://www.gibson.com/en-us/Lifestyle/News/Michelle-Obama-French-406/) This guitar contained components made of the wood in question in this raid. IF these materials are indeed found to be "illegal", anyone possessing these materials or provent to be responsible for the transfer of these materials may be found complicit in any wrongdoing determined to have taken place. http://www.courageinamerica.com/2011/08/michelle-obamas-gibson-guitar-gift-by.html (http://www.courageinamerica.com/2011/08/michelle-obamas-gibson-guitar-gift-by.html)
What's the chance we'll see Michelle in prison orange?
It never ceases to amaze me how on this board everything bad that has happened, is happening, or will happen in this country or in the world is somehow Obama's fault. Things are not that simple. A thread goes from a post about a raid on Gibson to a post about Obama being an underground terrorist. The ironic, and to some, amusing thing will be that those who espouse political extremism will probably nominate someone to run against Obama who will be so extreme that he will be reelected in spite of the high unemployment and bad economy. And it will also help if Dick Cheney stays on the book circuit and in the news.
From a plaque at the Will Rogers memorial:
"You never get a second chance to make a first impression."
Nice first post.
Lightsoutcalls - Thanks. I am the proud owner of one of your glass calls. I just wanted to make the point that demonizing anyone is not patriotic, nor is it Christian. It is something you do not do in your posts and you have no control over where the thread leads. I also wanted to make the point that no one is going to get elected if he or she doesn't make the case to people who might be considered moderate or independent, like me.
I'm sick of the us/them attitude of politics in general. I don't pretend to think that any president has ever done everything right. However, in my 44 years I have yet to see one that was so arrogant and blatantly condescending to the average working man as our current potus. Now the catch word is "compromise". Compromise equates to spineless in my book. Strictly my 2 cents, but compromise is why this nation would be unrecognizable to many of those who fought and died for our freedoms. I don't think I'm alone when I say it appears that every chance the man gets to pit one side against the other, he does it. The concessions made for the LGBT crowd, estimated at 7% of the population of this country, is disgusting. The changes he has instituted by encouraging gays to openly serve in the military will have a profound effect on our fighting forces, and at a time when our counrty is engaged in multiple conflicts? It's enough to make a reasonable person suspect conspiracy. His refusal to support the defense of marriage act? I'm sorry, but as I see it, many of the negative changes made since January of 2009 have obama written all over them. When these negatives result DIRECTLY from issues that he has presented, endorsed or voiced, how is that demonizing?
As for conservatives nominating someone that is too extreme... I have yet to see that person. The media will try to throw bones to liberals posing as conservatives to get them to devour those they see as the biggest threat to a second term. There are only 2 in the running right now that I would consider voting for if it weren't for the simple fact that obama was the only other choice. I think that honestly there will be enough people voting "anyone but obama" to get the job done.
I don't see that any of my reasoning could be construed as unpatriotic or unChristian. If you do, feel free to confront me. I'm not trying to be arrogant or sarcastic. I'm not trying to stir up hatred or dissention. It's not about race for me, nor party affiliation. I just hate to see this nation turned into something it previously was not. I'll never be politically correct. I won't buy into arguments of tolerance and efforts to use "religion" as an argument against those who take a stand for morality and decency.
I'm not bashing anyone. I'm just calling it like I see it.
Quote from: lightsoutcalls on September 01, 2011, 05:11:37 PM
I'm sick of the us/them attitude of politics in general. I don't pretend to think that any president has ever done everything right. However, in my 44 years I have yet to see one that was so arrogant and blatantly condescending to the average working man as our current potus. Now the catch word is "compromise". Compromise equates to spineless in my book. Strictly my 2 cents, but compromise is why this nation would be unrecognizable to many of those who fought and died for our freedoms. I don't think I'm alone when I say it appears that every chance the man gets to pit one side against the other, he does it. The concessions made for the LGBT crowd, estimated at 7% of the population of this country, is disgusting. The changes he has instituted by encouraging gays to openly serve in the military will have a profound effect on our fighting forces, and at a time when our counrty is engaged in multiple conflicts? It's enough to make a reasonable person suspect conspiracy. His refusal to support the defense of marriage act? I'm sorry, but as I see it, many of the negative changes made since January of 2009 have obama written all over them. When these negatives result DIRECTLY from issues that he has presented, endorsed or voiced, how is that demonizing?
As for conservatives nominating someone that is too extreme... I have yet to see that person. The media will try to throw bones to liberals posing as conservatives to get them to devour those they see as the biggest threat to a second term. There are only 2 in the running right now that I would consider voting for if it weren't for the simple fact that obama was the only other choice. I think that honestly there will be enough people voting "anyone but obama" to get the job done.
I don't see that any of my reasoning could be construed as unpatriotic or unChristian. If you do, feel free to confront me. I'm not trying to be arrogant or sarcastic. I'm not trying to stir up hatred or dissention. It's not about race for me, nor party affiliation. I just hate to see this nation turned into something it previously was not. I'll never be politically correct. I won't buy into arguments of tolerance and efforts to use "religion" as an argument against those who take a stand for morality and decency.
I'm not bashing anyone. I'm just calling it like I see it.
X2
I think you may have misconstrued what I was trying to say. I thought I said that you had been respectful and had NOT demonized anyone on your posts and that you have no control over what others say in the thread. And what a thread about jobs and the economy has to do with gays baffles me. I respect your religious beliefs and political beliefs, but I don't see that as an excuse to unload on someone who may have different beliefs. This thread had nothing to do with gay marriage or DADT. Maybe it all does come down to God, Guns, and Gays. Again, I apologize if I gave you the impression you were demonizing anybody. That is not what I meant to say. But now I am not so sure. This exchange does show why the politics in this country is in the state it's in. There's a lot of talk on this site about dictatorships and I guess one point of view is all that is allowed on this site. Message received.
Apologies to Lightsoutcalls. I can make excuses that it was a senior moment or that I just can't read or that I don't pay close enough attention. But the fact is the post to which I last responded was NOT from Lightoutcalls. I am relieved and I stand by my respect for him and his posts.
I am obviously out of my league and my comfort zone. I got it from Lightsoutcalls and a followup. I guess that comes with being a newbie. I am still wondering what gays had to do with the original discussion.
Quote from: Struttinhusker on September 01, 2011, 06:00:18 PM
I am obviously out of my league and my comfort zone. I got it from Lightsoutcalls and a followup. I guess that comes with being a newbie. I am still wondering what gays had to do with the original discussion.
Well, everyone knows that getting wood from India is just plain gay. :D
I think the main point that Wendell (lightsoutcalls) was trying to convey is that shutting down a business in this economy is akin to shooting oneself in the foot.
Our Nation's unemployment rate is quite high, and is even higher in certain states/ regions. We need everyone working who is capable of working. By forcing Gibson Guitars to close their doors, it just put countless employees out in the cold and they will become yet a further burden on the Unemployment System.
As the link in the OP said, Gibson Guitars did not violate any laws of the United States and was acting in good faith when purchasing materials from India. The violated law in question is an Indian law that is being enforced by the US Federal Government without even a request from the Indian Government.
To quote a buzzword frequently used by the Obama administration, such actions are "Unprecedented". I cannot think back of a single instance where the US Federal Government has enforced the law of a foreign land against a domestic, small business that was not in violation of any local or Federal laws.
Not trying to inflame opinions but point out the obvious -
Our government "good or bad " has in the way past, and well into the foreseeable future regulated , run off or shut down companies for what ever reason - and meanwhile overseas the same product can be made in clear violation of numerous treaties and EPA standards and sold right here on the shelves in big block stores - I think this has been going on for well over 20 years now
China=do you think for one moment that the country that is the biggest illegal importer of Rhinoceros horns and bear claws is going to raid a violin or guitar factory to make some granola eating geek from greenpeace happy- think again , they cant even keep the baby formula in china safe - we just created 500 new jobs in China , and placed 500+ US families on welfare
end result is now ---
1) US Jobs lost
2) China Jobs created
3) EPA or whatever governing busybody agency cannot or will not regulate what goes on in China
One more attempt to make my position clear. I have no quarrels with the original post. It was newsworthy and because of the woods of interest to members of this site. We don't know that much about it, but there is no doubt it has a negative effect on a lot of workers.
I did object to some of the inflammatory comments that are sometimes made on this site about the POTUS. I think they would be more appropriate on one of the hundreds, if not thousands, of political sites that print that kind of thing. But everyone has the freedom of speech to say just about anything anywhere - including me.
Lightsoutcalls seemed to think I was saying that he demonized people when I was trying to say that he was one of the ones who did not do that. Others, over whom he has absolutely no control, might do that on a thread he started. I must have not made that clear in responding to what I thought was a compliment about my first post because I got a long response, much of which had to do with gays. I apologize if I did not make myself clear. I did not say you demonize anyone. Some on this site do.
I hope I have made myself clear.
Quote from: Struttinhusker on September 01, 2011, 04:22:53 PM
Lightsoutcalls - Thanks. I am the proud owner of one of your glass calls. I just wanted to make the point that demonizing anyone is not patriotic, nor is it Christian. It is something you do not do in your posts and you have no control over where the thread leads. I also wanted to make the point that no one is going to get elected if he or she doesn't make the case to people who might be considered moderate or independent, like me.
Well, Im sorry to have offended, so this should make you happy
Im gonna be Christian and Patriotic all with this post. Please Pray for Obama, Psalms 109:8
Psalms 109:8-" Let his days be few and brief, And let others step forward to replace him"
Struttinhusker,
My post was not intended as an attack on you personally. I was not offended by your post, nor did I think you were saying that I demonized obama. I respectfully disagree with some of your points and was simply expressing my views on the current administration AND the state of society in general. I am not so naive as to think that one man, even the president of the United States could pull off all of the things stated under his own power. Let me try to illustrate it...
Our country was founded on Judeo Christian values. This is historical fact and can easily be proven by examining a number of our founding documents and historical writings of the period. Even until the 1950's (which was a decade before my time) there was clearly a much more innocent overall presentation of society. A good way to get a feel for that is to watch some of the TV programs of the day. No, that is not a be all/end all way to judge the heartbeat of a nation, but gives a feel for what was considered acceptable for the day. Since that time, this country has been on a downward spiral. The longer we go, the faster and steeper the spiral becomes.
Have you ever been to the ocean? Sometimes the waves may appear gentle and hypnotic. A person can stand and admire the rhythmic ebb and flow of the current. Standing knee deep in the water, you feel some force of the waves as they roll to the shore, then go back out to their source. If you go further out, you might feel the force of the water increasing. Once you get out where your feet don't touch, you might continue to feel the force of the water, but you have no bearing to base the strength on, since your feet no longer anchor you to solid ground. If you continue to be caught up by the movement of the water without attention to the danger you are in, you may soon find yourself so far from land that you no longer have a way to get back.
Society is in an undercurrent, towing this nation to sea (figuratively). Without recognizing this, we run the risk of getting caught in a rip current. That is a force greater than the strength of resistance. If you or I got caught in a rip current, literally, it would require the strength and force of one greater than ourselves to get us out of it. The leadership of our nation, not one man, not one party, is pulling us under. Yes, the original post was specifically about one incident related to financial issues and the economy. In reality, the troubles of this country are much broader and much deeper than a number of employees of one company being put out of work temporarily and assets of a company being seized.
It is very easy to get caught up in pointing fingers and condemning individuals or even political parties. In reality, we live in a society that hates the principles and ideals that this nation was founded on. Their desire for personal gain far outweighs their sense of right and wrong. Their selfishness and greed for money and power puts them in direct conflict with the values of our founding fathers. Those great men recognized their limitations, as well as the limitations that should be on government. They recognized that their success or failure was directly tied to their dependence on God or lack therof. (Yep, I just said it. I fought it as long as I could, but the truth is the truth.) I'm not trying to elevate or condemn anyone for their beliefs. The fact is, this nation was founded on Godly principals and was made great by observing and following them. The undercurrent of a "me" society has eroded the values and greatness of this country. No doubt the U.S. is still ahead of most of the rest of the world and has great potential, but greatness will not be restored by men (or women) who want to play politics and expand their own reaches for power. It will only come when a people recognizes the current that is dragging them away from a solid foundation.
These are my views and may not represent the views of the forum owners, moderators or members. I apologize for taking the original post in a different direction, and if these words have offended anyone personally, I apologize for the offense. I do not, however, apologize for holding these views and believing them with all of my heart. I love this country, but I hate what is being done to it.
I think we agree way more than we disagree. I am old enough to remember the fifties. For some groups, they were not as innocent as they were for others. I am a Lutheran and not a fundamentalist or evangelical and may be a little more uncomfortable with the role of religion in the government. But it is difficult to disagree with most of what you say, which I believed when I first got into this. My only objection was that the tone of some of the jokes and comments about the President are not going to help anyone begin to solve all the problems you so eloquently describe. I think we have driven this topic into the ground about as deeply as it will go.
Quote from: mcgruff1533 on September 01, 2011, 06:13:24 PM
As the link in the OP said, Gibson Guitars did not violate any laws of the United States and was acting in good faith when purchasing materials from India. The violated law in question is an Indian law that is being enforced by the US Federal Government without even a request from the Indian Government.
To quote a buzzword frequently used by the Obama administration, such actions are "Unprecedented". I cannot think back of a single instance where the US Federal Government has enforced the law of a foreign land against a domestic, small business that was not in violation of any local or Federal laws.
I believe that if you look into it further, the legal issues involved arise under the Convention On International Trade In Endangered Species (CITES). The US is a party to the treaty and there is implementing legislation, and USFWS has enforcement jurisdiction. If you go abroad hunting and want to being capes and horns back, the law applies to that activity.
The fact is, about any wood can get certified. I represent a foreign concern based in Malaysia with operations in Indonesia and S. America that ships exotic hardwood flooring into Canada and the US. There are ways to commit fraud for the certification and it is done.
The sensible question is whether USFWS should be spending money on raids and approaching the issue as it did. The wood came into the country and presumably cleared customs. It was not a smuggling operation per se, and there is some indication that the wood was certified. There is a less expensive and more lighthanded approach was available to USFWS, but they are trying to put on a show and make a statement.