This is just my observations. I have seen less turkeys, in more hours scouting, than ever. The last 5 years have been a sharp decline. The last 10 years, I am at 52% sightings of 10 years ago. All you southern and midwestern guys know this story. I hope we can get ahead of this and learn from others mistakes but it doesn't look that way. I am blessed with the best spot I have ever hunted in 24 years and it is exclusive to my wife and I. The land around it is being gobbled up, no pn intended, and I fear the worst is coming. Good luck to all the turkeys/hunters out there. I am an upbeat guy, but the sky is turning gray up in the Northeast. I'm doing my small part by thinning the nest raiders and coyotes, bobcats are off limits here. Good luck and god bless, Z
Quote from: zelmo1 on May 14, 2024, 06:21:25 AMThis is just my observations. I have seen less turkeys, in more hours scouting, than ever. The last 5 years have been a sharp decline. The last 10 years, I am at 52% sightings of 10 years ago. All you southern and midwestern guys know this story. I hope we can get ahead of this and learn from others mistakes but it doesn't look that way. I am blessed with the best spot I have ever hunted in 24 years and it is exclusive to my wife and I. The land around it is being gobbled up, no pn intended, and I fear the worst is coming. Good luck to all the turkeys/hunters out there. I am an upbeat guy, but the sky is turning gray up in the Northeast. I'm doing my small part by thinning the nest raiders and coyotes, bobcats are off limits here. Good luck and god bless, Z
Same here Z. If I didn't scout 20 + days, I would have little success as of late. Years ago, scouting wasn't as prevalent when there were more birds. Good news is Saturday I saw a hen with 10 poults. Most I've ever seen. Hopefully the majority make it, but we know that's a slim possibility. Hopefully the trend of the past 2 winters here continues, as I have seen a minuscule improvement over last year. The poult sighting gave me positive hope....
Sign of the times, and I fear it isn't going to be getting much better with the current climate on turkey hunting. By all means, predator control is a must. However, I think it's high time we control ourselves as well. Hunt for the love of it. There is nothing wrong with letting a few walk every year. I believe it's also a good idea to spread your kills out over a large area if possible. Leave a few for next year. I just wish it was more about turkey hunting these days and not attention hunting.
Good-looking and Platinum level member of the Elitist club
I feel your sentiment completely. Some days I feel as if this sport will be gone in a decade but I try not to let that pessimism overwhelm me.
Let's face it, turkey numbers are down. But how far down? Is this the new norm? Or are we still sliding? Who's to really say.
I think as turkey hunters, we need to limit ourselves and limit the amount of "recruiting" we're doing. Everyone thinks they're doing gods work by introducing someone to the sport but let's face it - it's crowded, too crowded. Get your kids into the sport, but maybe pass on helping the neighbors uncles kids son.... I know that sounds selfish but YouTube and the THP crowd are doing their damndest without you to destroy our opportunities and access. They just rolled through my local national forest and said "it was the worst pressure they've ever seen" - and they helped create it.
I for one would love to start seeing non resident draws. And I'm saying that as a non resident. That would slow all this super slam, glory chasing non sense and allow the local national forest to still maintain a level of respectability for residents.
I know there's trapping and habitat work and all that and it's great, 1000000% support it. But I'm more concerned about the general direction of this sport with glory chasing, reaping, Jake harvest, bearded hen harvest, full strut decoys, ground blinds, and all these means that are killing birds that for me - would be unkillable. I will not even torture myself hunting field birds because it's not a hunt. I don't use decoys, blinds or any of that $hit. So I would view those birds as ones left for next year but anymore I think someone's gonna use some cheap method to kill that bird. And it shows... I hardly ever see birds in fields anymore. 10 years ago there were 2-3 strutters in every unsprayed ag field.
Anyways - I'm ranting. I wish I knew a solution or what the future holds because I have my 8 year old boy I'm taking out for the first time next year and it breaks my heart knowing he might not have the same opportunity I was afforded at a young age.
We as hunters can do a little bit .... as has been said .... leave some for seed. But habitat and predation are a big factor in my area.
Quote from: mdmitchell on May 14, 2024, 07:41:05 AMI feel your sentiment completely. Some days I feel as if this sport will be gone in a decade but I try not to let that pessimism overwhelm me.
Let's face it, turkey numbers are down. But how far down? Is this the new norm? Or are we still sliding? Who's to really say.
I think as turkey hunters, we need to limit ourselves and limit the amount of "recruiting" we're doing. Everyone thinks they're doing gods work by introducing someone to the sport but let's face it - it's crowded, too crowded. Get your kids into the sport, but maybe pass on helping the neighbors uncles kids son.... I know that sounds selfish but YouTube and the THP crowd are doing their damndest without you to destroy our opportunities and access. They just rolled through my local national forest and said "it was the worst pressure they've ever seen" - and they helped create it.
I for one would love to start seeing non resident draws. And I'm saying that as a non resident. That would slow all this super slam, glory chasing non sense and allow the local national forest to still maintain a level of respectability for residents.
I know there's trapping and habitat work and all that and it's great, 1000000% support it. But I'm more concerned about the general direction of this sport with glory chasing, reaping, Jake harvest, bearded hen harvest, full strut decoys, ground blinds, and all these means that are killing birds that for me - would be unkillable. I will not even torture myself hunting field birds because it's not a hunt. I don't use decoys, blinds or any of that $hit. So I would view those birds as ones left for next year but anymore I think someone's gonna use some cheap method to kill that bird. And it shows... I hardly ever see birds in fields anymore. 10 years ago there were 2-3 strutters in every unsprayed ag field.
Anyways - I'm ranting. I wish I knew a solution or what the future holds because I have my 8 year old boy I'm taking out for the first time next year and it breaks my heart knowing he might not have the same opportunity I was afforded at a young age.
I agree with these sentiments
Turkey Numbers are going to go up, Turkey numbers are going to go down.
Hunter numbers are going to go up, Hunter numbers are going to go down.
It'll sort itself out.
:TrainWreck1:
My sighting of the hen with poults this past weekend opened my eyes on why I do not see many hens during the season. She walked away, seemingly to decoy me from seeing the poults. Of course I stopped and stood yielding ground to her and her babies. She was so vulnerable, did not run or fly away. The poults as well as mom where easy pray for any predator. I understand it takes about 2.5 weeks for them to learn to fly. I'll venture to say that the hen/poult population is severely impacted by this period where she stays on the ground with her young. Hens have a stressful time rearing their poults until they are old enough to fend for themselves. Nature is tough, there's a lot of things that are affecting the low numbers for sure.....
It seems to me that we are the problem, not enough gamekeepers out there that really care about the wild turkey population they would rather have a cool picture for social media and brag about tagging out or getting a grand slam or whatever. I'm also willing to bet that 50% of hunters that are killing these birds aren't even eating their harvest not that it matters since it's already dead anyways but the fact of them killing just for the kill doesn't sit right with me but maybe I was just raised to eat what I kill or don't shoot. I sound like an old head but I'm 23 and I hate this new generation of hunters and the social media aspect of it. I think we could do better on our parts.
In the area I hunt that is private ground I have seen more turkeys in the last 2 years. I contribute this to some good hatches the past few years and a good food source with habitat improvements. I do agree with what others have said about leaving seed and not trying to kill all your turkeys in one area. The last few years after the Covid year, we have had less hunters in the woods in my area also. So i think we can also do more to improve our turkey number by planting food sources and improving habitat. The level of turkeys we saw in the earlier 2000 was never a level we were expected to continue seeing overall as time went on and the season was open for hunting. Hopefully the goal was to establish a hunt-able number. In some areas this worked and some areas didn't fare so well. So I agree I think we all can do more to help the turkey numbers improve. A lot of this is a decision as a hunter you have to make in what tools you use in helping the turkeys. IMO
My area is getting worse yearly. More hunters, more out of state hunters and less turkeys. I can take two turkeys, but I have only ever taken one because of the population. I had several spots that I hunted since 2015 and would only see a couple other hunters back then. Now I am lucky to get on the land I have learned very well. I am excited to take my boy out when he gets big enough to hold a gun, but I am concerned it will be too late and the population will not be good. I keep hoping that the bad population will discourage many hunters and the future will be bright again.
Quote from: Birdbrain18 on May 14, 2024, 09:20:05 AMIt seems to me that we are the problem, not enough gamekeepers out there that really care about the wild turkey population they would rather have a cool picture for social media and brag about tagging out or getting a grand slam or whatever. I'm also willing to bet that 50% of hunters that are killing these birds aren't even eating their harvest not that it matters since it's already dead anyways but the fact of them killing just for the kill doesn't sit right with me but maybe I was just raised to eat what I kill or don't shoot. I sound like an old head but I'm 23 and I hate this new generation of hunters and the social media aspect of it. I think we could do better on our parts.
Turkeys weren't killed of by kids and you can find plenty of pile pics or strings of hung up turkeys. They used to put your name in the paper for killing a deer.
Even in say the "old pro" turkey talk was a thing.
clout chasing is not new, it is a complete myth. Old Man yells at sky level of stuff.
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I saw more turkeys in the area I hunt this year than any year since 2017. The population fell off a cliff but is definitely coming back. A couple of good hatches in a row has made a huge difference.
Same where I hunt and pressure is the furthest thing from the problem.
With all the studies that have taken place its clearly nest predators. I
bet we can track it to the decline of the fur industry. NYC stopped the sale of furs about 10 years ago and now trapping numbers are way down. A few examples from the studies one I saw they had trackers on 79 nesting hens and only 1 nest was successful. Another had cameras on something like 160
ground nests that includes other birds like grouse etc. but of the 160 nests 1 was successful. Unless we all start trapping ground predators there is nothing we can do.
Quote from: mikejd on May 14, 2024, 09:22:09 PMSame where I hunt and pressure is the furthest thing from the problem.
With all the studies that have taken place its clearly nest predators. I
bet we can track it to the decline of the fur industry. NYC stopped the sale of furs about 10 years ago and now trapping numbers are way down. A few examples from the studies one I saw they had trackers on 79 nesting hens and only 1 nest was successful. Another had cameras on something like 160
ground nests that includes other birds like grouse etc. but of the 160 nests 1 was successful. Unless we all start trapping ground predators there is nothing we can do.
Actually new info is coming to light. Yes predators are a problem but the lack of proper habitat is forcing hens to use sub par nesting and brood rearing areas making them extremely vulnerable to predation. Some studies indicate good nesting and brood rearing cover is not used very often by predators. Good nesting cover is not often used by egg eaters and good brood rearing cover is not often used by polt eaters as well as provides security from avian predation.
There is also evidence that correlates the drop in turkey numbers with the drastic loss of early successional cover over the last 20 plus years to invasive grasses and poorly kept pine forests.
Also it sounds like some areas in the south experiencing low turkeys are subsidizing predators by the use of corn and Lots of it. These feeding stations concentrate predators and prey into small areas and and keep predator populations unnaturally high. Well above the natural carrying capacity of the land. Disease runs rampant at these corn piles a well.
Studies have also shown that without the proper habitat in place trapping predators is not very effective.
Some biologist estimate only something like 7% of the habitat available to turkeys is good brood rearing cover. Pretty pathetic when you think about it.
Don't stop trapping but if turkey numbers are going to rebound in many areas habitat improvement needs to be job one on a public and private land. Put the right habitat in place and the benefits of predator control are exponentially greater. Without the proper habitat it won't take long for trapped predators to be replaced and the turkeys will still be vulnerable to them.
If you want more turkeys burn it or plant clover.
Timber Harvest.
Quote from: Paulmyr on May 14, 2024, 10:48:23 PMQuote from: mikejd on May 14, 2024, 09:22:09 PMSame where I hunt and pressure is the furthest thing from the problem.
With all the studies that have taken place its clearly nest predators. I
bet we can track it to the decline of the fur industry. NYC stopped the sale of furs about 10 years ago and now trapping numbers are way down. A few examples from the studies one I saw they had trackers on 79 nesting hens and only 1 nest was successful. Another had cameras on something like 160
ground nests that includes other birds like grouse etc. but of the 160 nests 1 was successful. Unless we all start trapping ground predators there is nothing we can do.
Actually new info is coming to light. Yes predators are a problem but the lack of proper habitat is forcing hens to use sub par nesting and brood rearing areas making them extremely vulnerable to predation. Some studies indicate good nesting and brood rearing cover is not used very often by predators. Good nesting cover is not often used by egg eaters and good brood rearing cover is not often used by polt eaters as well as provides security from avian predation.
There is also evidence that correlates the drop in turkey numbers with the drastic loss of early successional cover over the last 20 plus years to invasive grasses and poorly kept pine forests.
Also it sounds like some areas in the south experiencing low turkeys are subsidizing predators by the use of corn and Lots of it. These feeding stations concentrate predators and prey into small areas and and keep predator populations unnaturally high. Well above the natural carrying capacity of the land. Disease runs rampant at these corn piles a well.
Studies have also shown that without the proper habitat in place trapping predators is not very effective.
Some biologist estimate only something like 7% of the habitat available to turkeys is good brood rearing cover. Pretty pathetic when you think about it.
Don't stop trapping but if turkey numbers are going to rebound in many areas habitat improvement needs to be job one on a public and private land. Put the right habitat in place and the benefits of predator control are exponentially greater. Without the proper habitat it won't take long for trapped predators to be replaced and the turkeys will still be vulnerable to them.
If you want more turkeys burn it or plant clover.
I have to say, I've seen this first hand. Last year towards the end of my season I was driving on the road leaving my hunting spot. I spotted a hen just off the road along a fence. She was laying down, I thought she was hurt. I pulled over away from her. As I walked to her, she stood up and underneath her was 6 poults. They scurried a bit, I immediately retreated and left for coffee. I drove by an hour later, she was bedded again a few feet from that spot. There was nice growth along this old fence that ran along the road for a stretch. She was smart enough to pick this area for her poults, seemingly safer from ambush because of the fence and the brushy, grassy growth around it. Very interesting to me she picked this spot outside the woods close to the road. Lends merit to Paulmyr's thoughts above...
In my state of Pa. my scouting was slightly down. State wise Im sure it,s down cause they,ve altered some late seasons.They took the rifle out of the Fall season dont know if this was a political move cant see it as a Biological move. But if we as hunters love our Turkey hunting you better start shooting them Coyote,s. :firefighter:
I agree with almost all the perspectives shared, but I strongly agree with the habitat findings. We've always had predators and turkeys done well. I do think raccoons are a much more prevalent since the fur market crashed. However, if we have good habitat I think their impact is much less. I also think Human encroachment is impacting turkeys. More and more land is being swallowed up and developed in some form.
When it comes to habitat, most landowners just do not give a dam. If it cost money to do or it doesn't make them money they aren't interested. One way to augment this is for conservation agencies and sportsmen's groups to pay up for habitat projects. Put money in their hands and landowners will do it. This is expensive, but every little bit helps. I would like to see some public information posted on web site as to what good habitat looks like and how to get it established. Research is useless paper if findings are never implemented. I know NWTF has made some efforts towards this, but I suspect they spend way more on member recruitment and social programs. I won't knock salaries, because someone has to do the work. I would like to see a program like the CRP program for forest land.
Quote from: eggshell on May 15, 2024, 06:58:11 AMI agree with almost all the perspectives shared, but I strongly agree with the habitat findings. We've always had predators and turkeys done well. I do think raccoons are a much more prevalent since the fur market crashed. However, if we have good habitat I think their impact is much less. I also think Human encroachment is impacting turkeys. More and more land is being swallowed up and developed in some form.
When it comes to habitat, most landowners just do not give a dam. If it cost money to do or it doesn't make them money they aren't interested. One way to augment this is for conservation agencies and sportsmen's groups to pay up for habitat projects. Put money in their hands and landowners will do it. This is expensive, but every little bit helps. I would like to see some public information posted on web site as to what good habitat looks like and how to get it established. Research is useless paper if findings are never implemented. I know NWTF has made some efforts towards this, but I suspect they spend way more on member recruitment and social programs. I won't knock salaries, because someone has to do the work. I would like to see a program like the CRP program for forest land.
Great points here......
Fur prices from what I hear are worthless so there are not as many trappers anymore. Former trappers are a dying generation. Though bald eagles are a great thing...I am not sure if we all know how much of an impact they have on other game populations? Overall it seems like we are not the only predators out there.
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If I knew of an area with good or rebounding turkey numbers I sure wouldn't post about it on here given today's turkey hunting climate.
It ain't all doom and gloom, I'll say that much.
Almost all things negatively impacting turkeys ties back to one thing—people. Whether that be habitat related issues or predation. If I could stop one thing and one thing only it would be the introduction of "wildlife corn" onto a landscape. All of it carries aflatoxins. All of it is devastating on birds, particularly young birds. All of it creates concentrated disease sites for flocks. All of it creates highly effective ambush points for predators. All of it increases the carrying capacity of a landscape for potential nest raiders. It's a selfish endeavor that benefits nothing in the natural world. The corn being marketed and sold as "wildlife corn" is literally a product that regulations prohibit being sold to any other animal—not humans, not chickens, not cattle, not any form of livestock. And some studies show measurements of ten tons per square mile being introduced annually by hunters. There's a great deal out of our control, but this quite simply is not.
I think another aspect that state agencies struggle with, particularly my state of North Carolina, is managing populations at a state level. NC continues to advertise growing populations and while that may very well be true at the eastern end of the state, western North Carolina is experiencing the same dramatic declines that are occurring across the rest of the southeast. They've got to start managing populations with this in mind. State agencies have to limit out of state pressure. They have to prohibit the harvest if bearded hens. They have to deeply consider bag limits, and if that means one bird in places then I'm fine with that. If that means certain areas become a draw, I'm fine with that. I care more about the bird than I do my hunting them.
In the end, if you've got money to fund and or support habitat related work I think that's one of the wisest and helpful things you can do. But outside of that, do the common sense things. Don't put out corn for wildlife, period. Self regulate in states that lack adequate regulation. Do the things that you know you can do to help. I care much more about the man who does this work without any desire of recognition than I do the man who struts around the NWTF convention with spur necklaces hanging down his chest bragging about how many birds he's reaped.
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The average gobbler harvest is 30% of the population.And that's every state. It's not non residents and it's not the local hunters. You could kill every gobbler but one in an area and if the hens successfully nest the population would still increase.
Habitat is a problem but common sense would tell you predators are a worse problem. For near predators to have a nest to eat the hens have to lay the eggs, so the hens are obviously laying eggs in even poor habitat. Take care of the nest and poult predators and the turkeys will work out the rest. And predator control is not shooting one coyote every 5 years. It's full scale war.
How many here would shoot a bobcat or coyote if they had a gobbler responding and one walked by?
I kill every single opossum, raccoon, bobcat, coyote, wild hog and snake I come across. I'm not interested in that particular states opinion of bobcats or seasons on them. If the state allows bobcat hunting I keep the skin, if not I throw some leaves on it and keep walking. I'll run a coon over in a second opossum as well. It's full scale war. Them red tail hawks that like to come land in a tree when you yelping at a Turkey? Keep some lead #6s in your vest so you don't waste your 12$ super shells lol
Quote from: eggshell on May 15, 2024, 06:58:11 AMI agree with almost all the perspectives shared, but I strongly agree with the habitat findings. We've always had predators and turkeys done well. I do think raccoons are a much more prevalent since the fur market crashed. However, if we have good habitat I think their impact is much less. I also think Human encroachment is impacting turkeys. More and more land is being swallowed up and developed in some form.
When it comes to habitat, most landowners just do not give a dam. If it cost money to do or it doesn't make them money they aren't interested. One way to augment this is for conservation agencies and sportsmen's groups to pay up for habitat projects. Put money in their hands and landowners will do it. This is expensive, but every little bit helps. I would like to see some public information posted on web site as to what good habitat looks like and how to get it established. Research is useless paper if findings are never implemented. I know NWTF has made some efforts towards this, but I suspect they spend way more on member recruitment and social programs. I won't knock salaries, because someone has to do the work. I would like to see a program like the CRP program for forest land.
There are programs for forested lands as well. USDA and NRCS will provide info. Our property is enrolled. 5 or more acres qualify for it.
Free trapping instruction for any OG members that are serious about controlling predator numbers. 50 years on the trapline.
Quote from: ChesterCopperpot on May 15, 2024, 08:20:38 AMAlmost all things negatively impacting turkeys ties back to one thing—people. Whether that be habitat related issues or predation. If I could stop one thing and one thing only it would be the introduction of "wildlife corn" onto a landscape. All of it carries aflatoxins. All of it is devastating on birds, particularly young birds. All of it creates concentrated disease sites for flocks. All of it creates highly effective ambush points for predators. All of it increases the carrying capacity of a landscape for potential nest raiders. It's a selfish endeavor that benefits nothing in the natural world. The corn being marketed and sold as "wildlife corn" is literally a product that regulations prohibit being sold to any other animal—not humans, not chickens, not cattle, not any form of livestock. And some studies show measurements of ten tons per square mile being introduced annually by hunters. There's a great deal out of our control, but this quite simply is not.
I think another aspect that state agencies struggle with, particularly my state of North Carolina, is managing populations at a state level. NC continues to advertise growing populations and while that may very well be true at the eastern end of the state, western North Carolina is experiencing the same dramatic declines that are occurring across the rest of the southeast. They've got to start managing populations with this in mind. State agencies have to limit out of state pressure. They have to prohibit the harvest if bearded hens. They have to deeply consider bag limits, and if that means one bird in places then I'm fine with that. If that means certain areas become a draw, I'm fine with that. I care more about the bird than I do my hunting them.
In the end, if you've got money to fund and or support habitat related work I think that's one of the wisest and helpful things you can do. But outside of that, do the common sense things. Don't put out corn for wildlife, period. Self regulate in states that lack adequate regulation. Do the things that you know you can do to help. I care much more about the man who does this work without any desire of recognition than I do the man who struts around the NWTF convention with spur necklaces hanging down his chest bragging about how many birds he's reaped.
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X10 here Dave. The corn feeding seems like it can help spread disease through the game that feeds on it. Deer with CWD eat at a corn pile, kernels covered in saliva when it drops back on the ground seems like it could spread disease. Turkeys also could be effected from contaminated corn pile/feeders. I'm not a biologist by no means, but if they ban natural deer urine scent due to this concern, it makes sense that corn feeding could be a transmitter too
Every year, the same sob stories and everyone becomes an expert on the issue. It's stale. Go out and hunt. Learn a new area. Pick up a couple of extra shifts to pay to hunt with a reputable outfitter or lease ground.
Quote from: Tom007 on May 15, 2024, 09:00:38 AMX10 here Dave. The corn feeding seems like it can help spread disease through the game that feeds on it. Deer with CWD eat at a corn pile, kernels covered in saliva when it drops back on the ground seems like it could spread disease. Turkeys also could be effected from contaminated corn pile/feeders. I'm not a biologist by no means, but if they ban natural deer urine scent due to this concern, it makes sense that corn feeding could be a transmitter too
Any time that you unnaturally congregate animals in high densities you've created potential disease sites, whether that be prions from CWD and deer or whether that be avian pox or a host of other diseases with turkeys. It's inevitable. But I think the things folks aren't even thinking about with corn are things like creating ambush points for predators, or increasing the carrying capacity of a landscape for scavengers. If you've got ten acres that could naturally support five raccoons, what does that carrying capacity move to when you introduce 50lbs of corn every other week, or even once a month? Now you've got ten acres that can hold twice that initial carrying capacity. It's a HUGE issue.
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Quote from: JMalin on May 15, 2024, 09:23:40 AMEvery year, the same sob stories and everyone becomes an expert on the issue. It's stale. Go out and hunt. Learn a new area. Pick up a couple of extra shifts to pay to hunt with a reputable outfitter or lease ground.
I filled my tags. My success rate has nothing to do with my concern for the resource. And if you're not concerned with the resource there's a problem.
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Quote from: Twowithone on May 15, 2024, 06:45:30 AMIn my state of Pa. my scouting was slightly down. State wise Im sure it,s down cause they,ve altered some late seasons.They took the rifle out of the Fall season dont know if this was a political move cant see it as a Biological move. But if we as hunters love our Turkey hunting you better start shooting them Coyote,s. :firefighter:
Coyotes kill some birds but 1 racoon can eat hundreds of eggs.
Put out a feeder and you may see a coyote but at that same feeder you will likely see 20 racoons at a time. My fried has camera pics of 2 deer and 25 racoons at the same feeder.
Texas has more corn feeders than any state in the nation. Tilting at windmills if you think corn is a big factor in turkey populations declining.
No doubt predators are a problem I think we all agree. But habitat improvements is something that is needed to help increase the number of turkeys. I've seen what habitat improvements have done in our area with CRP land, this is areas we don't bush hog on a regular bases, we have done some forest tree cutting and opened up the forest canopy and we have planted and maintained food plots mainly clover. Overall our turkey numbers have increased.
Regardless if this is the same stories /issues helping keep awareness about the way others made improvements with trying to increase turkey numbers is a good thing in my turkey story book. If you care you will always share your opinions. I Agree most of us have a concern about the wild turkeys and the resources. What about you ???
Quote from: Greg Massey on May 15, 2024, 10:08:44 AMNo doubt predators are a problem I think we all agree. But habitat improvements is something that is needed to help increase the number of turkeys. I've seen what habitat improvements have done in our area with CRP land, this is areas we don't bush hog on a regular bases, we have done some forest tree cutting and opened up the forest canopy and we have planted and maintained food plots mainly clover. Overall our turkey numbers have increased.
Regardless if this is the same stories /issues helping keep awareness about the way others made improvements with trying to increase turkey numbers is a good thing in my turkey story book. If you care you will always share your opinions. I Agree most of us have a concern about the wild turkeys and the resources. What about you ???
Agreed Greg,
There's always the sarcastic ones that could care less as long as their not affected...
Turkey numbers seem to be pretty steady where I hunt. Although I haven't seen any big jumps in raccoons, opossums, skunks, coyotes, or other nest raiders, birds of prey have become MUCH more populous. Perhaps the recent dry nesting seasons have countered that, though.
Corn feeders aren't picky, they attract all animals. Raccoons being one of the most numerous. More raccoons, less nests are successful, it's basic math. If you feed the turkeys, use something other than corn. Z
All have stated good points that are agreeable! There is a study fixing to come out by the TFT and I think Iowa that I am wanting to see. Farming practices aren't helping anything either and I understand that they are trying to make all they can but in my opinion the no till drill farming has hurt all wildlife dramatically. Who would have ever thought a squirrel was a nest raider!
Quote from: slicksbeagles1 on May 15, 2024, 12:58:24 PMAll have stated good points that are agreeable! There is a study fixing to come out by the TFT and I think Iowa that I am wanting to see. Farming practices aren't helping anything either and I understand that they are trying to make all they can but in my opinion the no till drill farming has hurt all wildlife dramatically. Who would have ever thought a squirrel was a nest raider!
I'm not trying to argue but how do you figure that no till is BAD for wildlife?
mdmitchell It seems that herbicide kills unwanted plants in the corp fields and by doing so 1) there are no more buffers around the fields that used to be good cover used for raising there young, protection for rabbits, quail, and turkeys 2) if ingested will it harm the animals? It can humans! 3) I don't know for sure but do they use pesticides? This could also be ingested through what the animals eat! 4) I don't know about this either what is used to inoculate the seed can it cause problems? 5)This is not necessarily a no till drill problem it could be any crop. Is animal manure type fertilizer spreading disease? Possibly the bird flu when using chicken manure?
Quote from: slicksbeagles1 on May 16, 2024, 09:02:30 AMmdmitchell It seems that herbicide kills unwanted plants in the corp fields and by doing so 1) there are no more buffers around the fields that used to be good cover used for raising there young, protection for rabbits, quail, and turkeys 2) if ingested will it harm the animals? It can humans! 3) I don't know for sure but do they use pesticides? This could also be ingested through what the animals eat! 4) I don't know about this either what is used to inoculate the seed can it cause problems? 5)This is not necessarily a no till drill problem it could be any crop. Is animal manure type fertilizer spreading disease? Possibly the bird flu when using chicken manure?
Yeah the herbicide use isn't exclusive to no till. My dad's an agronomist so I grew up around it. But I do agree with you overall - modern farming practices are probably the single biggest threat to habitat. Whether it's tile use instead of water ways, lack of filter strips, clearing fencerows and woodlots for a few extra bushels, etc...
Everyone needs to get on board with improving habitat, especially for brood period. Whatever we are doing for habitat, that needs to be increased 300-500 percent. We need to address the predator factor, but really good habitat can help with that more than many realize.
So, I am with not only in agreement with paulmyer, but Chestercopperpot on this one - Corn needs to be addressed yesterday. I have waited for nearly five years of observation to make sure my hypothesis was true before saying anything. Corn is destroying the public land hunting where I live as much if not more than any other factor. I have killed a lot of turkeys, so don't try to sell others or myself that we just cannot cut it out there. But corn on the ground is anything but the turkey's friend. Beyond what is wrong with corn that has already been said by others in this current discussion, corn on the ground all the way around the perimeter of a public track that is say 25,000 acres, is pulling the birds completely off of public and onto private ground. The guys sitting by the corn pile on private are having a field day, while I know good hunters who are going the whole season now on public and hearing only a gobble or two the whole season in the heart of some of the local WMA's. That is because the birds are not there, they are on the corn piles on the private lands. And say what you want, but sitting on a corn pile is not turkey hunting.
I feel as though everything that everyone has mentioned is a part of the problem. I'm not saying things that go along with farming that was named isn't harmful but take Kansas for example turkey population was off the charts in early 2000's and not a lot of hunters, by 2010 hunter numbers were rising fast and turkey population was in a decline. I witnessed it first hand. People were farming way before the turkey population got so high. Next example the Ozark mountains. Missouri and Arkansas both had awesome hunting in the 90's but the hunter plague came through and now they almost non existent in comparison to what it used to be like. Hardly any farm in those parts so we can't blame that on farming. Tennessee is another prime example there decline happened not long after the world got out about how good the hunting was. This just few states that I was blessed to be able to hunt when it was what I called good. Is it just a coincidence? I personally don't think it is but that's just my 2 cents. We have a 500 acre farm in this region I trap around a hundred critters a year off the place and have for several years now some years there more bird than other years. I keep clover plots on parts, hay fields and you name it. I go above and beyond for the turkeys. With all that being said a couple years ago I had 8 longbeards on the place. I hunted public never shot the first one off this place, my neighbor has a couple grandkids and when I say grandkids they are grown with there own family's but them boys killed all 8 of them birds that year. This year there was one and I hope he made it. So you throw in everything that everyone else is saying plus a few bad years for hatching and it extremelyr the hens to rebound from it.
Predation has changed in a myriad of ways.
Nest predator populations have certainly exploded as the fur market crashed and as large blocks of land previously trapped/ coon hunted now have unchecked nest predator populations.
Poult predation has also changed. Coyotes are abundant virtually everywhere, bobcats are more plentiful than ever and the WORST culprit and least discussed is avian predation. Falcons, hawks and eagles exterminate poults, plain and simple.
And then we have humans in the spring..... We kill at an astoundingly efficient rate and we do it in volume each year between March-June around the country.
When you consider that brood habitat is virtually non-existent in many areas of the country, it's no wonder turkey numbers are falling precipitously.
Between the habitat issues, the critter predation and the sheer number of turkeys we as human beings kill it's a recipe for disaster.
I don't want to think about the 25 year outlook for wild turkeys across the majority of the landscape. Like elk and mule deer, the demand for wild turkeys is insatiable and their reproduction rates simply cannot satisfy it.
Man is the Biggest Predator!
Realize and it will get better, excuse and it will only get worse!
Quote from: eggshell on May 15, 2024, 06:58:11 AMI agree with almost all the perspectives shared, but I strongly agree with the habitat findings. We've always had predators and turkeys done well. I do think raccoons are a much more prevalent since the fur market crashed. However, if we have good habitat I think their impact is much less. I also think Human encroachment is impacting turkeys. More and more land is being swallowed up and developed in some form.
When it comes to habitat, most landowners just do not give a dam. If it cost money to do or it doesn't make them money they aren't interested. One way to augment this is for conservation agencies and sportsmen's groups to pay up for habitat projects. Put money in their hands and landowners will do it. This is expensive, but every little bit helps. I would like to see some public information posted on web site as to what good habitat looks like and how to get it established. Research is useless paper if findings are never implemented. I know NWTF has made some efforts towards this, but I suspect they spend way more on member recruitment and social programs. I won't knock salaries, because someone has to do the work. I would like to see a program like the CRP program for forest land.
Kansas has Habitat First. They still can't get landowners to sign up. I used it for native grass restoration and tree removal, but I am a needle in a haystack on the landscape. Actually had a Jake strutting in my south field this year, but I haven't shot a turkey since 2020. I am still a sponsor member of our NWTF as our chapter does a lot of good work.
https://ksoutdoors.com/Services/Private-Landowner-Assistance/Wildlife-Biologists/Habitat-First-Program/Practice-Descriptions/Practice-Descriptions-Specifications
That's sadly the common response around the country NativeKS. Thank you for your part and work. I don't know whatthe answer is. Besides money it takes time and equipment and those are both items that are a premium to farmers or absent for forest land owners. I don't know if it would be feasible for wildlife agencies and organizations to develop mobile teams to do work or not. Your talking a huge price tag. I am guilty as well. I have the equipment and the time and I could do more. I do have a plan in place on my small farm, but I need to change a couple fallow fields to better plantings. One by the woods is all fescue and I need to convert it to clover. I have managed my timber to preserve mast producers and enhance understory and travel lanes. I have ponds for water as well. The rub is the family has probably 10 remote fields in forest lands and none of them are managed for turkeys. I would have to trans port my equipment to the farm to do the work, but convincing them to purchase the required seed is unlikely. They are happy with the fescue fields they just mow once a year. If they got paid to do it they might I'd donate the time and my equipment and I know a buddy that would donate his equipment as well. I have brought it up and got "we'll think about it" as an answer. Seed, fertilizer and fuel for just a couple large food plots and clover for a few acres of fields would run in excess of $ 2,000.00. When you tell non hunting landowners it'll mean more wildlife they just answer there's plenty of wildlife now. Why should I spend that money? Farmers will often think, "yeah more deer to eat my crops". It's a tough sell for sure.
All good points.. and all contributing factors. Predators, habitat, pesticides, corn feeders, etc.. add pigs to the list, they are big issue for turkeys in the south... and not why you think. Listen to this.. start at 30min mark > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tl4uMbfACyo&list=PLRyWvGPNuNpxIXH7Cz8o4VGjAsMvf00OL
But as mentioned above, I personally think hunter numbers is going to be the main issue looking forward. Everyone and their brother, plus cousin, decided they want to be a U.S. slammer over the last few years. I noticed the common theme this year for many of the YouTube hunters was the pressure, and number of hunters. Good for them, they created the issue. God help you guys that have to hunt southern/mid-west public in the coming years, it's going to turn into a dove shoot unless something changes with the trends, or out of state licensing.
No state should have more than a (2) bird limit at this point. In fact, most should be 1 bird.
Wild hogs have exploded here in SOutheast in the last 20 years and the Turkey#'s seems to have went down with it, is there any research on wild hogs raiding nest?
Quote from: zelmo1 on May 14, 2024, 06:21:25 AMThis is just my observations. I have seen less turkeys, in more hours scouting, than ever. The last 5 years have been a sharp decline. The last 10 years, I am at 52% sightings of 10 years ago. All you southern and midwestern guys know this story. I hope we can get ahead of this and learn from others mistakes but it doesn't look that way. I am blessed with the best spot I have ever hunted in 24 years and it is exclusive to my wife and I. The land around it is being gobbled up, no pn intended, and I fear the worst is coming. Good luck to all the turkeys/hunters out there. I am an upbeat guy, but the sky is turning gray up in the Northeast. I'm doing my small part by thinning the nest raiders and coyotes, bobcats are off limits here. Good luck and god bless, Z
I feel your pain
If the birds are still there, I do believe there are less, then they are staying in the woods more.less sightings, less gobbling = less birds to me. I keep track of my area pretty well, about 200 days a year. The numbers are very much lower. I hope they are getting smarter and still around. I am just a realist, numbers look to be drastically lower. Z
Many great points made in the posts above. Do any or all of them apply in any one specific area? ...Likely not, but there is no doubt that some combinations of them are impacting turkeys in a lot of places. Other places?...Not so much, CURRENTLY.
Having said that, I will point the blame, at least partially, at one entity that has not been mentioned. That is...wildlife managers, themselves. I don't know about other states, but I can tell everybody for a fact that an air of nonchalance (and seeming unawareness) exists HERE with what is happening across the country in terms of trends in turkey numbers AND the impacts human hunting is having on them.
The very fact that many states are taking rather draconian steps towards reducing the impacts of hunting (i.e. bag limit reductions, shortening season lengths, etc.), and the lack of awareness of what the impacts will be to states that are not doing that, is short-sighted, in my opinion.
In short, the "tunnel vision" I see here in my state indicates to me that our wildlife managers do not recognize, and seriously consider, the big picture of what is happening around us, both in surrounding states as well as nationally. That lack of "vision" is a looming recipe for disaster here.
That is a great point GN, same here. Just want to make the $$$. I am on them constantly to learn from other states pitfalls. Deaf ears as turkeys are relatively new $$ makers here.