Turkey hunting forum for turkey hunting tips

Looking for opinions on a TOTALLY hypothetical scenario.

So, I'm gonna develop a turkey load at my loading bench.  Looking to load 3 1/2" shells with 2 1/2 ounces 19 g/cc TSS #5's or#6's at 1225 fps or so.  Not sure whether for my BPS 10 gauge or my SX2 or SX3 12 gauges.  But that's irrelevant.

Gonna have William at SumToy design me a tube that will maximize the pattern density at 100 yards.  May be a little far for consistent head & neck hits 100% of the time.  But the bigger TSS pellets will definitely anchor a gobbler with a body shot at that distance.

Now......... In PA..........this setup is totally legal.  I could even drop down to TSS #4's if the pattern density was there.

What say ye ??

(Remember......... TOTALLY hypothetical.  But most will see where I am going with this)

Gold is heavier.  Load up some gold loads (cost should be nearly the same :TooFunny:) and you may get a few more yards.

Quote from: Tail Feathers on July 07, 2023, 10:38:39 AM
Gold is heavier.  Load up some gold loads (cost should be nearly the same :TooFunny:) and you may get a few more yards.

Too soft.   Won't pattern.  Won't penetrate.

Are you that bored already?? :TooFunny: You need to go find a job... :funnyturkey:

Quote from: JeffC on July 07, 2023, 12:18:33 PM
Are you that bored already?? :TooFunny: You need to go find a job... :funnyturkey:

I just got RID of one.......   :P

;D

I think that no matter how you slice it, when the rubber meets the road, a penny saved is a penny earned and you really should consider all angles when thinking outside the box and realize that what goes around comes around and you don't to want to put all your eggs in one basket so their is no sense in crying over spilled milk and every cloud has a silver lining so if you give it 110% when all hell breaks lose it will just be all in a days work.   That's all I have to say about that. 

So is this scenaro similar to setting the house on fire just to roast a marshmallow.

Quote from: eggshell on July 07, 2023, 01:00:28 PM
So is this scenaro similar to setting the house on fire just to roast a marshmallow.

Make smores, get it right!

Huge difference in pulling a trigger and hunting a turkey. I see shooting a turkey at 65+ yards the same way I see shooting a bird a guide calls in on a pricey hunt, anyone can squeeze a trigger.

Quote from: davisd9 on July 07, 2023, 01:24:31 PM
Huge difference in pulling a trigger and hunting a turkey. I see shooting a turkey at 65+ yards the same way I see shooting a bird a guide calls in on a pricey hunt, anyone can squeeze a trigger.

You're getting warmer.......   ;)

But.....if it's legal in the state you're hunting........

Quote from: Yoder409 on July 07, 2023, 01:52:42 PM

Quote from: davisd9 on July 07, 2023, 01:24:31 PM
Huge difference in pulling a trigger and hunting a turkey. I see shooting a turkey at 65+ yards the same way I see shooting a bird a guide calls in on a pricey hunt, anyone can squeeze a trigger.

You're getting warmer.......   ;)

But.....if it's legal in the state you're hunting........

To each their own if legal, but that does not mean I have to give them props/respect for an easy feat.

If you can get it to pattern out well at 250 yards I have a couple spots I won't have to leave the truck, keep me posted . Z

How is TSS 4's legal and I can't shoot a deer with buckshot. This isn't fair so I say you shouldn't be able to do it.


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I am by no means a ballistic expert, but all shotguns have a limited effective killing range, even if the pattern holds dense enough to hit a turkey at the above mentioned distances. It just won't penetrate due to the loss of kinetic energy. Also, there would have to be magnified optics to accurately aim at a turkey at these hypothetical yardages. Again, I know it's hypothetical, this is just my thoughts.....legal or not........I do enjoy the debate here....

I say use a 22 hornet with a rest off of a lead sled and then ride out on your e bike to pick him up. Don't wanna work too hard and you can brag you got him with lead to all the tss boys.. 

A lot of states have regulations  that could potentially have adverse effects on their Turkey seasons that are legal. "By another permit and kill another bird" is available in allot of states, and it's all legal. If every hunter tried to take advantage of every "legal" regulation, I think we all know that we wouldn't have much left to share and talk about.......

I like happy more all the time ???????????? :funnyturkey:

 Your debate question is real, it's in my cabinet. I shoot a BPS 10, but with 2.675 oz, not 2.5. I do shoot an 8X9 blend but first loading was of 7.5 shot.

You are at and past the point of turkey hunting to just turkey killing. The birds of the day that hung up at 50 yards are not a factor for this gun. In putting together a turkey killing machine "Achieved" I went past turkey hunting. Even with the 7.5, not even considering a load of 4's or 5's.

I did go to a 8X9 blend. It has an amazing pattern at 40 yards "610+", and beyond. But, no more lethal than a 20g just because of the one BB factor. Any sub gauge with TSS can achieve this at 40 yards with TSS.

I am getting older but do love the BPS. I have carried my sons M2 and my Viper 410. When you go from a 610+ pattern to the 410g it is a bit different for sure. The 410 has all you need to kill a turkey at 40 yards.

For you debate, IDK. I do know, I will not be a changed person that condemns someone doing what I once done. They can find their own path, for their own reasons. It is not for me to decide for them.

Question: If I possess an adequate weapon, should I buy another to suite the crowd? Or should I dumb it down to handy cap the gun? Shouldn't I try and achieve the most ethical kill of each animal I pursue? Maybe....each individual should set ethical turkey hunting boundaries. Not stopping at just the weapon. It goes much further than that. BTW, rifles are legal in WV an a few other states.

Personally, I still say a trot line baited with corn is the way to go.  Hooks and corn are a lot cheaper than TSS,...and the "catch and release" element for those turkeys that don't meet our high standards here on OG of no jakes (and/or hens, of course) is really the deciding factor for me,...not to mention that I only have to check the line every few hours.  ...Gives me plenty of time to catch up on my YouTube viewing.    :angel9:   ;D   :toothy9:

Oh baby!  Another legal vs ethics thread!!  I've said it before and I'll say it again, hunting will be destroyed not by the anti hunting groups, but by hunters themselves who have different views and opinions and hate those who oppose their own views.  Every time one of these discussions pop up I roll my eyes and sigh. I have friends who kill deer at 1000 yards with expensive long range set ups. That's not my cup of tea but I don't bitch about it. I have friends who will happily kill a nursing coyote knowing that the young will slowly starve to death. Not something I'd be proud of but I don't hate them for it. I have friends that use a crossbow who are totally fit and able to use a vertical bow. I'm not a fan of it but hey, we still are friends. Hunters need to stick together.

Lighten up Francis, it's the off season

Quote from: crow on July 08, 2023, 02:06:24 PM
Lighten up Francis, it's the off season

WOW, it's all in good humor. X2

I still think the motorized reaping dolly is the way to go. You can cut that 100yds down to 30 in a matter of seconds.

 Sorry if I offended, I was bringing out my side.

I thought it was a debate.

Quote from: WV Flopper on July 08, 2023, 11:43:20 PM
Sorry if I offended, I was bringing out my side.

I thought it was a debate.

The lighten up wasn't directed towards you

So, anyways..............

What I was getting at here.......and I think most of you got it........is just HOW far are we willing to go with the "If it's legal where you're at and that's what you want to do" statement ??

Yeah......... I know that "division amongst our own ranks is our own worst enemy".  But, maybe NOT speaking up about "legal" things that ARE or could be detrimental to the future of turkey hunting is a close 2nd place ??

Just tossing out an opinion.  We all know what those are like and why........

But, hey............   It's the off-season.    ;D

I am right there with you and agree that there needs to be a line drawn in the sand(we have already blown past where it should be in my opinion). However, I think it needs to be done with the interest of the turkey in mind as opposed to a "you know what" measuring contest between hunters.

You'd have to shoot # 7.5 or # 8 tss to have pattern density @ 80+ yards :OGani:. Not enough pellets in the tss #5 or #6 loads... I picked up a nice used 12 ga bps nwtf this year and killed a nice gobbler with it... ( my first with 12 ga in quite a few years)a classic mid morning loud mouth gobbler all by himself. Long story short, even with 2.5oz of #8 tss... in that situation I would have felt more comfortable and confident  taking the shot with my 16 or 20 ga... he came in hard left and got me all twisted up. I took the shot and immediately tasted blood. Shot was around 50 yards and he folded.Was I over gunned? Probably. But ANY of my turkey guns would have made that shot. I was pumped as it was a great hunt on unfamiliar ground and I just officially broke in my new turkey gun.... to me it was an accomplishment to call in and take a nice gobbler in a tough spot with a new "unfamiliar"  gun. To me, it's just another tool in the box, not a crutch. Great    "debate" Yoder! Some great points of view and opinions As long as nobody gets too upset, these debates are great to have as a group, and very American of us! That's the beauty of OG! A lot of hunting forums nowadays are just commercialized circle jerks, im  just glad we can be "allowed to have different opinions", and can have these debates without getting banned.

I say go for it!!!! A hunters ego could be hurt if he couldn't post a picture for Facebook. Every body needs a ????

Many years ago we had this same debate on TTH forums and we gave it up when Gobblenut was trying to determine if a grenade launcher could effectively kill a gobbler without ruining the meat. I think he figured if he placed it within 30 yards the concusssion would do the job and still leave the bird intact. There were a couple other members went even further off the deep end, something about a door gunner and heat seeking rounds.....

Quote from: eggshell on July 09, 2023, 05:29:27 PM
Many years ago we had this same debate on TTH forums and we gave it up when Gobblenut was trying to determine if a grenade launcher could effectively kill a gobbler without ruining the meat. I think he figured if he placed it within 30 yards the concusssion would do the job and still leave the bird intact. There were a couple other members went even further off the deep end, something about a door gunner and heat seeking rounds.....

Let me guess, he was gonna put his decoys about 20 yards from his hideout. Sounds like Gobblenut.

 O ... NO SOMEONE BROUGHT UP DECOYS AGAIN .... :TooFunny: :fud: :gobble:

OK guys, here's a semi-serious answer as well as another question.
I have a book here (would have to look at it to determine the author) and he talks about shooting his turkeys with a 10 gauge side-by-side with loads of #2, and 3's at ranges far beyond what we consider ethical. By this, I mean like 80 yards or so. He says those loads will break bone reliably and anchor the bird.
My question is when did we change the way we thought about it? I'm not saying his way is right but obviously, the thinking changed over the years. And wouldn't a Hevi-shot #4 do about the same as those lead 3's? I have some of those that I got by mistake. I am considering using those on coyotes. My gun sure don't pattern them good enough to use on a turkey.

Quote from: Clif Owen on July 09, 2023, 09:22:33 PM
OK guys, here's a semi-serious answer as well as another question.
I have a book here (would have to look at it to determine the author) and he talks about shooting his turkeys with a 10 gauge side-by-side with loads of #2, and 3's at ranges far beyond what we consider ethical. By this, I mean like 80 yards or so. He says those loads will break bone reliably and anchor the bird.
My question is when did we change the way we thought about it? I'm not saying his way is right but obviously, the thinking changed over the years. And wouldn't a Hevi-shot #4 do about the same as those lead 3's? I have some of those that I got by mistake. I am considering using those on coyotes. My gun sure don't pattern them good enough to use on a turkey.

In his old book Capt. Bogardus a world class shotgun competitor and market/sport hunter settled on #1 lead in his sxs 10gauge to hunt turkeys with.

Charles Jordan in his even older book recommended shooting turkeys in the head/neck with #6 lead and #4 shot in the other barrel for backup shots, as Col. Tom Kelly put it "shooting turkeys in the all over" (body shots)

so it's gone both ways even that far back

Quote from: crow on July 09, 2023, 09:54:01 PM

Quote from: Clif Owen on July 09, 2023, 09:22:33 PM
OK guys, here's a semi-serious answer as well as another question.
I have a book here (would have to look at it to determine the author) and he talks about shooting his turkeys with a 10 gauge side-by-side with loads of #2, and 3's at ranges far beyond what we consider ethical. By this, I mean like 80 yards or so. He says those loads will break bone reliably and anchor the bird.
My question is when did we change the way we thought about it? I'm not saying his way is right but obviously, the thinking changed over the years. And wouldn't a Hevi-shot #4 do about the same as those lead 3's? I have some of those that I got by mistake. I am considering using those on coyotes. My gun sure don't pattern them good enough to use on a turkey.

In his old book Capt. Bogardus a world class shotgun competitor and market/sport hunter settled on #1 lead in his sxs 10gauge to hunt turkeys with.

Charles Jordan in his even older book recommended shooting turkeys in the head/neck with #6 lead and #4 shot in the other barrel for backup shots, as Col. Tom Kelly put it "shooting turkeys in the all over" (body shots)

so it's gone both ways even that far back

Not THAT far back.......

My first couple spring seasons I used #2 lead.   That's just what you used.......to break legs and wings.

It was a couple years in til I went to lead 4's.........then 6's for head/neck shots.

But, it was fact back then and it's fact to this day that a turkey can be killed farther by body shooting with lead 2's (where still legal) than head/neck shooting with lead 6's.

So, here we are.........back to "If it's legal where tou are......... "

Since it's off-season, I'm going to provide you with some argument material. First and foremost, I agree with you. Now with that being said. Your driving through one state and the speed limit is 65. Cross over to the next state and speed limit is 75. How fast before you reset speed control? Remember... going to 75 could be detrimental to you or others on the road, but it is legal. Just because it's legal should you still do it. Guessing that 99.3% on this forum would reset with-in 2 mile. There you go!

Yup I'm going to 75 immediately (hypothetically) no I'm not ever (hypothetically) using a load to body shoot turkeys at 100 yards. Actually to be honest I'm never setting up any load for body shooting turkeys and I'm never intentionally body shooting a turkey. I would rather tss be illegal and be forced to use a 35 yard 20 gauge than have others capable of killing turkeys at 100 yards. Some times it's worth pointing out when others are doing things the wrong way. Not a shot at the op I understand what you're going for here. It does get on my nerves when people get offended when others point out that they might be doing something wrong or with the wrong motivation


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Quote from: crow on July 09, 2023, 09:54:01 PM

Quote from: Clif Owen on July 09, 2023, 09:22:33 PM
OK guys, here's a semi-serious answer as well as another question.
I have a book here (would have to look at it to determine the author) and he talks about shooting his turkeys with a 10 gauge side-by-side with loads of #2, and 3's at ranges far beyond what we consider ethical. By this, I mean like 80 yards or so. He says those loads will break bone reliably and anchor the bird.
My question is when did we change the way we thought about it? I'm not saying his way is right but obviously, the thinking changed over the years. And wouldn't a Hevi-shot #4 do about the same as those lead 3's? I have some of those that I got by mistake. I am considering using those on coyotes. My gun sure don't pattern them good enough to use on a turkey.

In his old book Capt. Bogardus a world class shotgun competitor and market/sport hunter settled on #1 lead in his sxs 10gauge to hunt turkeys with.

Charles Jordan in his even older book recommended shooting turkeys in the head/neck with #6 lead and #4 shot in the other barrel for backup shots, as Col. Tom Kelly put it "shooting turkeys in the all over" (body shots)

so it's gone both ways even that far back

The Wild Turkey and it's Hunting was written by Edward Mcllhenny from an account of Charles Jordans notes. Get it right crow! :goofball:

I have doubts about about lead 2's reliably anchoring a turkeys at 80yds. Kill them at some point most likely with a solid hit. If we're talking turn of the last century and longer ago most hunting was during the fall and dogs were probably used for clean up to trail and find the wounded/dead turkeys. If not dogs the people were far better woodsman and could probably track and find it themselves.

I've shot lead 2's at flying snow geese where 50 yds was considered in range, watched them wobble from the hit and continue flying 1/4 mile or better before dropping dead. With the previously stated line of thought wings should have been broken and the bird would fall immediately.

Quote from: Paulmyr on July 10, 2023, 11:04:02 PM

Quote from: crow on July 09, 2023, 09:54:01 PM

Quote from: Clif Owen on July 09, 2023, 09:22:33 PM
OK guys, here's a semi-serious answer as well as another question.
I have a book here (would have to look at it to determine the author) and he talks about shooting his turkeys with a 10 gauge side-by-side with loads of #2, and 3's at ranges far beyond what we consider ethical. By this, I mean like 80 yards or so. He says those loads will break bone reliably and anchor the bird.
My question is when did we change the way we thought about it? I'm not saying his way is right but obviously, the thinking changed over the years. And wouldn't a Hevi-shot #4 do about the same as those lead 3's? I have some of those that I got by mistake. I am considering using those on coyotes. My gun sure don't pattern them good enough to use on a turkey.

In his old book Capt. Bogardus a world class shotgun competitor and market/sport hunter settled on #1 lead in his sxs 10gauge to hunt turkeys with.

Charles Jordan in his even older book recommended shooting turkeys in the head/neck with #6 lead and #4 shot in the other barrel for backup shots, as Col. Tom Kelly put it "shooting turkeys in the all over" (body shots)

so it's gone both ways even that far back

The Wild Turkey and it's Hunting was written by Edward Mcllhenny from an account of Charles Jordans notes. Get it right crow! :goofball:

I have doubts about about lead 2's reliably anchoring a turkeys at 80yds. Kill them at some point most likely with a solid hit. If we're talking turn of the last century and longer ago most hunting was during the fall and dogs were probably used for clean up to trail and find the wounded/dead turkeys. If not dogs the people were far better woodsman and could probably track and find it themselves.

I've shot lead 2's at flying snow geese where 50 yds was considered in range, watched them wobble from the hit and continue flying 1/4 mile or better before dropping dead. With the previously stated line of thought wings should have been broken and the bird would fall immediately.

I have the book and just thought it went without saying that it's Jordan's journal organized by E.M.  :morning:
The part about which shot size to use sounds to me like it's coming straight from C.J.


I hunted Canada geese pretty serious back in the good old lead days, and would have strong confidence in lead #2's to break heavy bone at 50 yards.

#2's at 80 yards breaking heavy bone sounded a little optimistic to me

Just pulling your strings. I guess the word reliably could be a matter of perspective. For some it may mean 95% of the time, others it might mean 75%. For the weatherman it means 51% and they get awards for it.

It is good to find things to talk about during our off-times, and especially when we have pretty much covered every turkey-hunting topic from every imaginable angle over the years.  I think the discussion about shot size and comparing turkeys and the larger waterfowl species is something we have not really talked about much...so here I go with a few random thoughts on the subject...

First of all, I find it interesting that migratory waterfowl populations, in general, are doing so well in comparison to our turkey populations.  Turkeys and waterfowl both exhibit the same reproductive strategies...that is, they rely on having large numbers of young as an evolutionary tactic that some of those young will survive to adulthood. 

I also find it a curiosity that, while waterfowl exhibit monogamous breeding behavior and turkeys have a polygamous breeding behavior (which would seem to me to be advantageous), waterfowl seem to be doing so much better than turkeys in the area of survival of their young.  That just seems counterintuitive to me, even while recognizing that waterfowl parents are much more aggressive defenders of their young.

Which brings me to the next point regarding our attitudes about shooting waterfowl as compared to turkeys...and in relation to shot sizes used and acceptance of crippling losses.  As has been pointed out, I think waterfowl hunters generally adopt the theory that shooting large shot (for the larger waterfowl species such as geese, cranes, and swans) is better, while us turkey hunters most recently have adopted the idea that shooting dense patterns of smaller shot is the way to go for cleaner, surer kills. 

Locally, we hunt sandhill cranes at times.  They winter in this area in the thousands.  They are tough, wary birds and our shots are often in the forty to fifty-yard range at flying targets.  Our strategy in shooting them has always been one of "shoot large shot and break something so they fall out of the sky".  Conversely, in turkey hunting, that concept of using large shot to "break something so they don't run off" attitude definitely has seemed to have lost favor, assuming it ever existed to begin with. 

The problem with shooting large shot is that it leaves too much to chance in where that shot hits the bird.  A pellet that hits a half-inch right or left of breaking a bone, or otherwise being an immediate mortal wound, results in a crippled bird that will likely get away only to succumb later.  On our crane hunts, there are invariably birds that we know have taken shot, but that fly off and are not recovered.  This reality bothers me...but not nearly to the extent of the thought of losing a crippled gobbler.  For some reason, in my mind, there is a difference. 

Perhaps it is just in the shear numbers of birds and, in my mind, the mental concept that losing a few cripples when there are so many of them is (reluctantly) acceptable.  On the other hand, just the nature of the type of hunting in pursuing waterfowl makes it unavoidable to some extent, it seems. Again, I don't like the thought, but I have come to accept it.  However, for some reason I accept it much less when it comes to turkeys. 

[quote author=GobbleNut link=topic=114974.msg1151476#msg1151476 date=1689086097
Which brings me to the next point regarding our attitudes about shooting waterfowl as compared to turkeys...and in relation to shot sizes used and acceptance of crippling losses.  As has been pointed out, I think waterfowl hunters generally adopt the theory that shooting large shot (for the larger waterfowl species such as geese, cranes, and swans) is better, while us turkey hunters most recently have adopted the idea that shooting dense patterns of smaller shot is the way to go for cleaner, surer kills. 

Locally, we hunt sandhill cranes at times.  They winter in this area in the thousands.  They are tough, wary birds and our shots are often in the forty to fifty-yard range at flying targets.  Our strategy in shooting them has always been one of "shoot large shot and break something so they fall out of the sky".  Conversely, in turkey hunting, that concept of using large shot to "break something so they don't run off" attitude definitely has seemed to have lost favor, assuming it ever existed to begin with. 

The problem with shooting large shot is that it leaves too much to chance in where that shot hits the bird.  A pellet that hits a half-inch right or left of breaking a bone, or otherwise being an immediate mortal wound, results in a crippled bird that will likely get away only to succumb later.  On our crane hunts, there are invariably birds that we know have taken shot, but that fly off and are not recovered.  This reality bothers me...but not nearly to the extent of the thought of losing a crippled gobbler.  For some reason, in my mind, there is a difference. 
[/quote]
Gobblenut's quote





None of the shot size choice is limited to olden times or modern times.
Body shooting or "break something so it doesen't run off" certainly did and does still exist.
As mentioned earlier C. Jordan promoted small shot for head/neck shots as his first choice but shot turkeys with larger shot in his left (distance barrel) when it suited him.

Henry Davis was a small shot head/neck hunter but also used larger shot in his left barrel for just shooting turkey, he also didn't hesitate to shoot them with buckshot  when deer dogs ran turkeys past him

Bogardus (his book is available to watch in the archives online) was a body shooter and settled on #1 shot after trying #4 bird shot thru several buckshot sizes.

Simon Everett, pretty much the same as Jordan and Davis.

Col.Tom Kelly at different times used #2 shot for body shooting down to #7.5 lead for head/neck shots and settled on #4 lead for head shots first choice and the same #4 lead for "shooting turkeys in the all over" when appropriate.

As TSS got popular with some of the hunting shows on the outdoor channel, a lot of them are body shooting gobblers now. Our tv remote will slow it down to 1 frame at a time and pause on a frame, you can clearly see the pattern hitting the body, too regularly to be coincidental.

I'm friends with and used to hunt with an old old hunter who is no longer able to go.
He was raised in the Pa. Mt.s on a farm and was taught by older relatives to body shoot fall turkeys.
His teachers were contemporaries of Archibald Rutledge (and some of the same Pa. hunting grounds also)
From reading some of Mr. Rutledge's books he also seemed to be a first choice head/neck hunter but didn't hesitate to shoot gobblers "in the all over" as Col. Tom puts it.

I think if someone choses to hunt this way they have they same responsibilities of patterning and knowing their gun to avoid the negatives you stated.

I do not like picking shot and embedded feathers from my turkey meat...."that's all I got to say about that", Forest Gump

Build it, Market it. You'll make a mint from the Would Be, Wanna Be FB GOATs out there...
Seriously ...
But on a personal note, my old mentor said it best, " The downside of 40(yds) is where Turkey hunting starts; anything further is just killin."

Quote from: eggshell on July 11, 2023, 04:36:16 PM
I do not like picking shot and embedded feathers from my turkey meat...."that's all I got to say about that", Forest Gump

If I'm gonna shoot a goose on the the ground I'm shooting for the head and neck. Those wings folded against the body with all that down underneath is like a plate of armor. Same with ducks on the water. I'm with eggshell. I don't like bb's in the meat or bloody shot up ducks for roasting, shot up ones go in the sausage pile.

I think shooting waterfowl on the wing is a different animal than turkeys on the ground. Most areas I hunt waterfowl are pretty open. There's a pretty good chance birds that aren't "anchored" immediately can still be found but I  wont go without my dog if tall weeds are nearby. A turkey, if I hit it with a good shot in the head and neck at reasonable ranges will undoubtedly be anchored.

I would add. If my families next meal depended on it, a body shot with deuces at extended ranges might not be out of the question.