Turkey hunting forum for turkey hunting tips

So I normally shoot a Mossberg 835 Ulti-Mag 12 gauge 3.5" magnums with copper plated #5's. I've had great success with this set up like most hunters do. Now I'm researching 20 gauge Turkey guns mostly the Stoeger M3020. This light weight absolutely awesome shotgun is being paired up with the new TSS loads. I understand that guys are getting sweet patterns at long ranges etc. etc. But are you really gaining anything other than a lighter shotgun to tote around? I'm having trouble believing that the 20 gauge  #7.5-#9 shot in a TSS load is gonna penetrate and inflict more damage than a 12 ga load with bigger shot carrying energy down range. I see the paper patterns and they do pepper the kill zone. But does the 20 gauge TSS really get you an advantage? (I've shot doves with #8 loads and watched them stutter and fly away.) I'm thinking it's just the new popular thing to do to change things up a bit right now and create more of a challenge.  Would like to hear from those that have had success with the above mentioned set ups at +40 yard situations. Thanks in advance. ????

Quote from: Poohflinger on May 03, 2023, 02:17:04 PM
So I normally shoot a Mossberg 835 Ulti-Mag 12 gauge 3.5" magnums with copper plated #5's. I've had great success with this set up like most hunters do. Now I'm researching 20 gauge Turkey guns mostly the Stoeger M3020. This light weight absolutely awesome shotgun is being paired up with the new TSS loads. I understand that guys are getting sweet patterns at long ranges etc. etc. But are you really gaining anything other than a lighter shotgun to tote around? I'm having trouble believing that the 20 gauge  #7.5-#9 shot in a TSS load is gonna penetrate and inflict more damage than a 12 ga load with bigger shot carrying energy down range. I see the paper patterns and they do pepper the kill zone. But does the 20 gauge TSS really get you an advantage? (I've shot doves with #8 loads and watched them stutter and fly away.) I'm thinking it's just the new popular thing to do to change things up a bit right now and create more of a challenge.  Would like to hear from those that have had success with the above mentioned set ups at +40 yard situations. Thanks in advance. ????

If you do a search on the forum, you can read all you want about lead VS TSS ... Lots of good posts and reads... Good luck...

A 12 ga. #5, want come close to a 20ga, #9, in performance.

Poohflinger?   Ok, I'll bite. 

I had my doubts as well.   Then shot this hog at 20 yards with 9 1/2's, yes 9 1-2's.   One shot kill, shot in the head.  And have killed a couple more since this one.   I doubt #5 copper would have had the same result.  Oh, and this was a 410. 
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49732202251_36aa7e1334_c.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49732486737_b60c4e498e_c.jpg)

Quote from: Poohflinger on May 03, 2023, 02:17:04 PM
So I normally shoot a Mossberg 835 Ulti-Mag 12 gauge 3.5" magnums with copper plated #5's. I've had great success with this set up like most hunters do. Now I'm researching 20 gauge Turkey guns mostly the Stoeger M3020. This light weight absolutely awesome shotgun is being paired up with the new TSS loads. I understand that guys are getting sweet patterns at long ranges etc. etc. But are you really gaining anything other than a lighter shotgun to tote around? I'm having trouble believing that the 20 gauge  #7.5-#9 shot in a TSS load is gonna penetrate and inflict more damage than a 12 ga load with bigger shot carrying energy down range. I see the paper patterns and they do pepper the kill zone. But does the 20 gauge TSS really get you an advantage? (I've shot doves with #8 loads and watched them stutter and fly away.) I'm thinking it's just the new popular thing to do to change things up a bit right now and create more of a challenge.  Would like to hear from those that have had success with the above mentioned set ups at +40 yard situations. Thanks in advance. ????

Welcome to this site, glad to have you. And Greg is correct, do a little research to give you confidence that you make the right decision for you. But a couple of things just based on what you said to help you grasp what TSS is all about: A number 8 field load in the dove field is not a load of number 9 TSS. Due to the incredible density, the very tiny #9 TSS hits with the same knockdown of somewhere between number 4-5 lead, so you cannot compare #9TSS to a #8 field load in any way because #9 TSS is going to hit as hard downrange as any lead turkey load you can come up with by going to a larger pellet in that said lead load. If you choose to shoot a TSS load in the 7-8 range, that downrange energy just goes much higher and once you get down to the #7 TSS range you will actually begin to see some complete pass through on reasonable range shots at turkeys which is unreal based on what we have seen from lead shot for decades.

Second, even though a 12 gauge can carry more pellets, the payload is being delivered at an almost identical feet per second. For example, the Apex 12 gauge 3" #9 TSS load is running at 1200 feet per second, while the Apex 20 gauge 3" inch load of #9 TSS is running at 1175 feet per second. Pretty close in speed coming out of the barrel, so both are going to inflict nearly identical damage downrange just based on velocity with the same size shot in both shells. I say this with humility just trying to help - in that when you go to TSS, conventional thinking that we have all had with lead and steel has to be dropped and we have to embrace a new way of thinking.

Even though TSS is amazing, you mentioned performance at +40 yards situations. Yes, TSS even in the smaller #9 range will kill turkeys dead dead at ranges of fifty to sixty yards and maybe slightly further. But, I humbly suggest that even with this new found far superior load you approach this with the mindset to try and still shoot your turkeys inside of 40 yards. TSS will kill a bird every single time if you hit the brain and spine at 60 yards, but there is a lot that can wrong at those extreme ranges. Read up as Greg suggested and please let us know what you decide.

P.S. - TSS does not like constriction like lead shot does. I would suggest that you stay in the range of .565-585 when trying to pattern that Stoeger if you do go the TSS route. 

I've also smoked a hog with my 20ga 9's tss. Took a couple shots though. Also, not sure if this data is helpful at all lol. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230503/2732ac295b46c180f111bc032898d002.jpg)


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Quote from: ol bob on May 03, 2023, 02:27:13 PM
A 12 ga. #5, want come close to a 20ga, #9, in performance.

That's right.  Think of the biggest baddest 12 ga #5 lead as a solid 2nd base hit and the tss #9 1 5/8 oz being a home run.  I've been shooting it since it was handloading only and I've killed a lot of birds with it.  In a 20 ga #9 is the ticket.  Its going to be solidly effective beyond the 40 yard mark... Like beyond the 50 and probably the 60 and no I'm not talking about the golden BB.

It is not about knockdown power (hydrostatic pressure) because that is pretty much a meaningless term People used to say a 4 gauge lead ball had knockdown power vs a bull elephant.  Then the Nitro magnum calibers had knockdown power.  Karamojo Bell proved killing was achieved through penetration to the brain with relatively small calibers.

The exact same is true with turkey hunting.  You don't need to obliterate the brain.  You need to penetrate to the brain, spinal cord or traumatize the cord enough to damage it. The higher density, smaller shot of TSS allows penetration similar to the larger lead loads because it retains downrange energy longer (Force=mass x acceleration).  The denser the material, the greater the mass and the longer it takes to slow down.  Does not kill them any more dead than your #5 lead does, it just puts probably more pellets on target with the same penetration as the larger lead. A quick google search can show you.

Call them in close and it is all a moot point anyway.  The bird I shot this year would have been dead with #8 lead loads (under 20 yards). 

Go research pellet count per ounce of lead and TSS 9s. Sit and think about it and you'll start to understand

Would you rather someone throw a beach ball at you or a golf ball at the same velocity?

The advantage of the 20 is weight savings. The advantage of the 835 is cheaper shells. Also you don't have ro worry about cracking a tooth on TSS.

Same otherwise.

Quote from: howl on May 03, 2023, 06:04:05 PM
The advantage of the 20 is weight savings. The advantage of the 835 is cheaper shells. Also you don't have ro worry about cracking a tooth on TSS.

Same otherwise.

Having a lightweight gun is so nice. My youth 870 20ga is a dream to carry compared to my old 12ga 870 Express Super Magnum.


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Biggest thing is to understand the differences in tungsten and lead densities.

If a man wants to batter his shoulder with 3.5" magnums in 2023 I say let him All kidding aside, there's honestly little reason to hunt 12ga for anything with wings anymore aside from maybe snow geese and sandhill cranes and passing shots of that sort. With modern loads and modern chokes and modern sights a 20ga is hands down the best all around gauge at this point. You can go lighter but to me I don't know the reasoning. 20ga recoil is super negligible and if it's that bad drop it down to some 2.75" shells and lighten the pay loads. 2oz of tungsten is overkill on turkeys in just about every ethical situation.


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Kills them just as dead as a 12 and you can hold the 3020 at the ready for extended periods of time. I know if one gobbler that came in from behind me, had I not had the 20, would still be gobbling today. No way I could have even come close to holding a 12 at the ready for fraction of the time needed to wait on him to take the last couple steps to clear some brush.

Quote from: ShortMagFan on May 03, 2023, 05:41:11 PM
Go research pellet count per ounce of lead and TSS 9s. Sit and think about it and you'll start to understand

Would you rather someone throw a beach ball at you or a golf ball at the same velocity?

This!!

I think TSS shot provides the option of choosing a lighter gun with less recoil without sacrificing the performance a 12 gauge delivers.  That's just my take on it. 

Now when my son was 10-11-12 year's old he used a Mossberg 20 gauge pump and Winchester Longbeards to kill several turkeys.  All were one shot kills and he never missed with that gun.  I guess I'm saying this to make the point that TSS is not necessary even with the 20 gauge. 

I have killed turkeys with 3.5" 12 gauge TSS with my 835, but in my mind I felt it was way to much overkill.  Plus I got to the point that I got tired of sighting the gun in, especially with expensive TSS.  Apex 12 ga 3.5" TSS is $14 a shell.  Apex 3" .410 TSS is $6.2 a shell.  I now hunt with with a 301 .410.  It's cheaper to shoot, light, simple and reliable.  It kills turkeys just fine within 40 yards and I never took shots over 40 yards when I was shooting the 835. 

So I guess what I'm saying is that using TSS really makes a smaller bore shotgun perform similar to shooting lead shot in a 12 gauge.


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ive went all the way across the spectrum, started out with a 12g and #4 lead and currently shoot a 410 with #10 tss (shot alot of gauges and shot size in the middle also). My findings have been 12g, 20g, 410, #4 lead, #5 lead, #6 lead, #5hevi, #7heavyweight, #9 tss, #9.5 tss, #10 tss all equaled dead turkeys. Majority of shots were 35 and under but they all did their job. Once I started carrying a single shot 410 around, even my 20g felt heavy. I dont think I will use anything but a 410 as long as it is legal and #10 tss handholds have been field proven for both me and my son over the last 2 seasons

Welcome to OG.  I can't speak to the technical aspects of downrange killing power but assuming that the above assertions are true I would go 20 gauge just for the weight savings.  I looked up the guns you are considering and there is a  about a 1.5 pound difference or maybe a bit more.  At one point in my life that meant nothing but as I have aged it matters much.  Since a gun is a lifetime purchase I would go twenty (unless you are unconvinced that TSS in a 20 ga. will kill a bird at the ranges you normally shoot).  A factor you did not mention is the availability of TSS.  If that goes away then you are likely back to lead at 20 ga. power which means 25 or so yard shots.

There is lots of research on the ways shotgun pellets kill. All studies found number of pellets in the target was way more important than shot size and excessive penetration (as long as minimum penetration is met). All things things considered TSS will always put more pellets on target and carry more than enough energy to kill over lead.

I guess I am at the opposite end of this. Just switched to TSS this year but I didn't get rid of my 3 1/2in gun and I bought the 3 1/2 Apex to shoot out of it. Unbelievable patterns and crazy killing power! I love it. I guess I'm in the crowd of "Why do you shoot 3 1/2's? Because they don't make 4's!" But there is no doubt in my mind that TSS in a 20g would be more than enough.

Quote from: Meleagris gallopavo on May 04, 2023, 07:30:16 AM
I think TSS shot provides the option of choosing a lighter gun with less recoil without sacrificing the performance a 12 gauge delivers.  That's just my take on it. 

Now when my son was 10-11-12 year's old he used a Mossberg 20 gauge pump and Winchester Longbeards to kill several turkeys.  All were one shot kills and he never missed with that gun.  I guess I'm saying this to make the point that TSS is not necessary even with the 20 gauge. 

I have killed turkeys with 3.5" 12 gauge TSS with my 835, but in my mind I felt it was way to much overkill.  Plus I got to the point that I got tired of sighting the gun in, especially with expensive TSS.  Apex 12 ga 3.5" TSS is $14 a shell.  Apex 3" .410 TSS is $6.2 a shell.  I now hunt with with a 301 .410.  It's cheaper to shoot, light, simple and reliable.  It kills turkeys just fine within 40 yards and I never took shots over 40 yards when I was shooting the 835. 

So I guess what I'm saying is that using TSS really makes a smaller bore shotgun perform similar to shooting lead shot in a 12 gauge.


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Good Post!

Quote from: Brillo on May 04, 2023, 08:09:54 AM
  A factor you did not mention is the availability of TSS.  If that goes away then you are likely back to lead at 20 ga. power which means 25 or so yard shots.

I think about that possibility often in that TSS could become unavailable and the 20 gauge will plummet in popularity. That is really the main reason that I am hanging on to my two 12 gauges that I hunted with for so long.

There's no shortage of tungsten. And the way hunters are flocking to TSS the demand will remain. Face it todays new hunter think lead is obsolete


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I guess  I shouldn't say all that. I think we just hear more from tss shooters. Plenty of lead shooters who just don't post, due to arguments regarding which kills the best
But TSS is here to stay because lead will be banned in all States eventually

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I bought a 20 ga a couple of years ago and the fact that China dominates the world supply of tungsten was not a factor to me then or now but to some it might be an issue.

China dominates most items and earth materials. U.S. forgot self reliance along time ago.


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My take...

Higher density shot will maintain energy longer and have better penetration, and tends to pattern more consistently and easier to hold tight patterns (than lead or less dens shot).  A good TSS load in a 20 gauge will outpreform a great lead load in the 12 ga.

For most of us, and the ranges we are shooting (assuming 30 yards and under), we could shoot cheap target loads at these birds and they will die...  Just as quickly and well as with premium ammunition...  The premium ammunition comes into play when shooting through brush, or pushing ranges (which can happen on purpose or by mistake).

As far as recoil...  A stout load in a 20 ga. will kick as much as most turkey loads in a 12 ga. (unless you are shooting 3.5" 12 ga. loads).  The light weight of the 20 ga. gun does not absorb that recoil.  I was a bit surprised when I tried out a 20 ga. with duck loads, and actually felt that my 12 ga. (shooting standard duck loads) had more pleasant recoil...  And considering that some companies are making 2 oz turkey loads in the 20 ga., there will be NO relief from recoil there.

There is a huge difference between TSS and Lead when it hits the bird too. I don't take long shots. I use tungsten because it stones turkeys. They may flap their wings a few times when you pick them up but even my sons .410 has the same results.

"Shooting through brush?"

If i'm using my 12 ga i still use the old copper coated lead 5 and 6 shot ... I don't own a box of TSS for 12 ga. gauge. Now with the 20 gauge i use the Old Federal HW 7 and I set up a new gun last year in 20 ga and i'm using number 6 long beards ... But i do own some 20 gauge TSS in Boss / Apex 20 /410 ... Nothing wrong with TSS in my opinion it makes a sub gun a fine turkey hunting gun paired with the right choke ...

 i shoot a 20ga. with #9 tss i killed 2 last year one at 52 yards and one at 55 yards . killed 2 this year at 50 yards 20 ga. is the way to go i sold my 12 ga and 20s is all i hunt with . they are easy to pack and don't kick like a mule....

Probably already been said, but with TSS you basically get 12 gauge performance or better out of 20 gauge. If I had to take a 40 yard shot I think I'd feel more confident with TSS 9s out of my 20 than with 3" longbeards out of my 12. That said, I still frequently grab my 12 because it's fully adequate to 40 yards, and it's just fun shooting cheaper "traditional" turkey loads at turkeys (even standard copper plated lead turkey loads). The 20 is easier to tote and hold for long periods. Sometimes the 12 is just more fun to me.

Haven't shot TSS myself. Researching a 28. A normal load of TSS #9s for a 28 has at least 12% MORE pellets than the 2oz of #6s in my current lead load. And the #9s are lethal at a longer distance than the #6s. Both loadings will kill a gobbler farther than my personal ethical distance so I know if I do go with said 28 and load then I am giving up nothing, losing weight and recoil...and of course spending a lot more $$$????

This has got to be a troll comment at this point. A .410 set up the right way will out penetrate and out pattern that 12 gauge anvil 3.5 lead load, a 20ga tss pattern would embarrass it.

Quote from: briton on May 05, 2023, 09:53:07 AM
This has got to be a troll comment at this point. A .410 set up the right way will out penetrate and out pattern that 12 gauge anvil 3.5 lead load, a 20ga tss pattern would embarrass it.

LOL  Of course it is.  look at the OP's name. 

He picked one heck of a first post!!! Several liked the bait. They swallowed the hook, line, and sinker.

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I really don't care what the OP calls himself ... i do enjoy reading the comments on the TSS and Lead...

I'm so ashamed and embarrassed now. I will never post again! Wait whoops....

Quote from: runngun on May 06, 2023, 12:05:30 AM
He picked one heck of a first post!!! Several liked the bait. They swallowed the hook, line, and sinker.

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Funny thing. If he was a Troll you're on the same hook I am????
As it is maybe our info is helping answer someone else's question... the LORD can sure work in mysterious ways. Thankfully

Prospector, you are certainly correct on all counts!!! Hope you have had a great season and are doing well!!!!


Have a good one, Bo

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Quote from: g8rvet on May 05, 2023, 02:02:07 PM
LOL  Of course it is.  look at the OP's name.

I thought it was a a medical problem?

Admittedly, took the bait and got gut-hooked.

I am a huge fan of TSS. My adventure to TSS began differently. In VA we hunt deer with shotguns and buckshot. I wanted a 25 yard solution for a youth to harvest a deer from a blind. First I built my 9 year old son a 28 gauge semi youth shotgun.  Next I hand loaded a 1 ounce TSS BB load. A nice Buck arrived one morning at 15 yards. Little guy got some Buck fever at it was at 50 yards that he finally got composure to pull the trigger.

At 50 yards on a quartering away shot EVERY TSS pellet was a complete pass through and the far shoulder was broken in 3 places.

I have never had 12 ga 3 1/2  00 buckshot penetrate like that. With my own eyes I witnessed the 28 gauge/TSS combo lethality. 

TSS has a cost. I am willing to pay $5/ shotshell for my 9 year old to ethically harvest deer with a 28 gauge.  I am willing to pay $6/shotshell to carry a 4 pound 410 shotgun, with zero recoil that effectively kills turkeys at 40 yards.


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All is well, Sir. I had a good season here in Mississippi. We done now. It was a STRANGE season. Had info on many Longbeards and expected different than I got. Gobbling was somewhat less than anticipated. Green up was early, then it's almost like it stopped. Then had a bird in a spot homestead and gobble a lot! The last Saturday a hen was still flying to him in the am and when she did it was "Silent City". I knew where he went to post up and strut but wouldn't cross property lines to beat him there, lol.
Where was I? TSS. Will probably end up shooting it in a 28 or 20. #9s... I'm a 40ish yard guy self limit so that will give me that + a comfortable buffer in case of a range error. My current lead set up has worked a number on a bunch but it's in a heavy piece of artillery with recoil to boot- that will be the biggest reason for me.
I hope everyone has a safe and productive season- I'm on the sideline for now. As for Trolls? Keep it up. This has been a polite and enjoyable thread on all counts.